MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
Garmin HRV and Stress
- Thread starter Liter O' Test
- Start date
Sicsemptyran
Member
What's your current stack? Many of the things we run in here can skew HRV quite dramatically, the GH and GLPs being some of the biggest offenders. The HRV drop from GLPs is well documented and thought to be benign or vastly outweighed by the positive benefits.
bananafeet
Member
Do you have anxiety symptoms? Are you taking beta blockers? These will influence HRV.
I'm currently on a gram in total. Test/deca.
Liter O' Test
Member
yeah im on tirz, i was at 7.5mg and lowered it to 6mg last shot, then the next day I heard of that, so I'm planning to stop it completely for now. Maybe in the future I will do like 2mg reta or tirz.
From what I understand one aspect might be its affect on the Vagus nerve, stimulating it and leaning things towards parasympathetic and supressing appetite and the increased digestion time especially at night. from my research today it seems like eating before bed makes a large negative difference.
That hrv doesnt look very good but I haven't seen much HRV data from people on gear, so thank you for contributing. Especially because I might give Deca another shot next cycle, I'm guessing less androgenicity = better HRV.
Hows your stress and sleep?
I generally have anxiousness, I was prescribed beta blockers at once point but had to come off them because my BP was getting too low and maybe even my respiration rate. Plus I thought they might have been making me lazy/depressed. But at one point they were a lifesaver, even just on TRT, as I felt like I was always stuck in "On" mode after the military.
Currently I'm on ~300mg tren (i know obvious answer here)
but I honestly don't feel much different compared to my baseline anxiety. Just TIRED. but I get ~7-8 hours of sleep so at first I thought it was dopamine related so I bought some caber.
But after getting the watch I see that most of that sleep is light with 50+ restless events (I think tirz digestion), but I think the real factor for my HRV is just general stress, as mine is ~40+ all day and night with no resting periods.
Anyway, needless to say I won't do anymore tren and see how it recovers.
On my last cycle (no tren), I didn't get the gains I was expecting and felt similar to this, Exhausted, difficulty recovering.
So I'm removing tirz and the tren, and I'll just stay on my background legit TRT dose of 700ng/dl and see what my real baseline is.
I also wear a CPAP and I manage to keep it on for atleast half of the night.
I do a 4 day split of 16-20 sets per day
(half of them aren't really working sets, like pyramids)
I'm in a surplus and my dumbbell shoulder press went down while on this tren dose so I was like ok im buying a goddamn fitness watch
This is day two of being out of the gym and Its killing me.
I'm going to have to do legs tomorrow IDGAF
bananafeet
Member
Ok bro I know exactly how you feel. You know that gear itself can cause stress and maybe you don't need to stop the Tren but lower the dose to something reasonable. Like 100mg.
As for my HRV it's always been bad. I feel much better on this cycle that my anxiety is treated with a SSRI. I sleep very deeply due to the combo of Mirtazapine and Sertraline.
From my personal bias I'm heavily leaning on sympathetic overdrive. Basically you have anxiety or stress and don't realise it.
So you're not resting properly when you sleep....
Liter O' Test
Member
yeah thats what im beginning to think too.
I have some nebivolol and ivabradine but I was trying to do things the right way and get it prescribed and overseen by a doc, so ive been holding off but this appointment is taking forever.
so I might just take a small dose of one and see if i see an immediate decrease in my stress readings.
RandallFlagg
Member
You have the right idea. Drop the Tren...and then do some zen-like shit like the Garmin watch suggests...lol.
I think your sample size is way too small to do anything except make the obvious changes. I don't even know if you need to drop the Tirz right off but if won't hurt to drop for 2-3 weeks anyway and jump back on if needed.
My wife loves to stare at her Garmin stats (mostly because she stays at home and works out all day...and loves to see her stats improve...lol). I barely glance at my Garmin because it is just gonna confirm what I already know...I'm over worked, overstressed, and don't do enough cardio. My HRV sucks.
Use it as a data point to make changes...but I would personally look at a sample size of like 2-3 months rather than 2-3 weeks to see if it means anything.
You already have the working out habit in your favor. I seem to vaguely recall some cardio history in your story but too lazy to look back and remember....so you are already on top of the most sensible changes. And like malfeasance always preaches, do more cardio (if you can). It will self correct.
I think your sample size is way too small to do anything except make the obvious changes. I don't even know if you need to drop the Tirz right off but if won't hurt to drop for 2-3 weeks anyway and jump back on if needed.
My wife loves to stare at her Garmin stats (mostly because she stays at home and works out all day...and loves to see her stats improve...lol). I barely glance at my Garmin because it is just gonna confirm what I already know...I'm over worked, overstressed, and don't do enough cardio. My HRV sucks.
Use it as a data point to make changes...but I would personally look at a sample size of like 2-3 months rather than 2-3 weeks to see if it means anything.
You already have the working out habit in your favor. I seem to vaguely recall some cardio history in your story but too lazy to look back and remember....so you are already on top of the most sensible changes. And like malfeasance always preaches, do more cardio (if you can). It will self correct.
bananafeet
Member
In my experience beta blockers won't increase HRV. Only relaxionation and good sleep will.
Keep in mind that the Garmin is not a medical device and the readings are based off of a calculation. You shouldn't self medicate based on it.
If your resting heart rate is too high you need to figure out why. Beta blockers will bring it down. If you have anxiety gear will probably just make it worse.
Being on a SSRI and Mirtazapine was the only thing that helped my anxiety. Obviously life stressors were the cause.
xrayphoton13
Member
My hrv stays low too. I gave up on it. It's probably the gear plus high caffeine and ephedrine plus tirzepatide. When I lower the heat and the caffeine and drop the ephedrine it goes up in the 40s but I've never had it higher. And I workout 3-4 days a week and do HIIT cardio 3-4 days a week where I get heart rate up to 160s for 15 minutes and then do steady state in the 130-140s for another 15
Liter O' Test
Member
How low?
do you have recovery issues? fatigue? are you jacked af?
Im trying to trouble shoot HRV/Sleep/"Stress meter"
theres just no way i should be burned out on day 4 of my split when most of my sets aren't to failure.
realistically its probably a combination of everything
I'm going to do a ton of LISS and drop everything and add things back in
maybe TRT + 100mg Tren + 200mg NPP + 50mg Adrol
when i go to the gym in the morning i pound a lot of intra and post workout carbs, then i come home and have the best 150 min nap of my life, that feels better than my whole night of sleep.
The crash is worrying neurologically, because i feel brainfogged and zapped, but the nap is so good. and im realiizing this past week for a few days ive had other obligations stopping me from this nap, the nap has been probably saving me and keeping me running.
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BP_6
Member
My HRV has been low for well over a decade now. I don't worry about it anymore.
Liter O' Test
Member
how low?
do you think its holding you back in anyway?
what do you think is keeping it low?
BP_6
Member
Usually in the upper teens and rarely ever even gets into the 20's. Been like that literally since I got my first watch that was able to track it. That was well over 10 years ago, I believe actually about 15. Didn't even know what it was really till several years ago. Been taking AAS for over 20 now, so maybe it was lower before, but I never had the tech or didn't own the tech back then to check it before AAS.
Nothing I have done to this point has effected it a bit. No meds, beta blockers or anything else. Even gaining and losing weight has almost no effect on the average and never has. Could it be a problem? Sure. However since it has been that way for so long and hasn't ever really varied for maybe more than a day or two max at a time in all those years. I did the standard EKG/cardiogram test many times and still do one every year and always came back normal.
Therefore, while it may be some horrible thing, I have decided to not stress myself out about it. Especially since I had a doctor tell me that he has seen fitness watches have people go through so much stress and so many test to only not be able to find anything wrong. A blessing and a curse as he said.
Hope that helps as that is the best anecdotal info I have.
Nothing I have done to this point has effected it a bit. No meds, beta blockers or anything else. Even gaining and losing weight has almost no effect on the average and never has. Could it be a problem? Sure. However since it has been that way for so long and hasn't ever really varied for maybe more than a day or two max at a time in all those years. I did the standard EKG/cardiogram test many times and still do one every year and always came back normal.
Therefore, while it may be some horrible thing, I have decided to not stress myself out about it. Especially since I had a doctor tell me that he has seen fitness watches have people go through so much stress and so many test to only not be able to find anything wrong. A blessing and a curse as he said.
Hope that helps as that is the best anecdotal info I have.
xrayphoton13
Member
Usually high 20s, low 30s. No recovery issues and not jacked. I do get fatigued in the evenings though on workout days. I just put it to my stims and training to failure. I do get a nap in as well but only 30 minutes due to my job. But damn without that nap I'm not functional. If you do find a fix I may have to try it myself as well. I tried np thyroid am/afternoon but that didn't do anything to help other than make me hungrier so I dropped it. I also tried swapping caffeine for Moda and/or armoda but didn't like it as much.
The best I remember feeling was on trt with minimal caffeine and fasted am workouts but it's been so long since I did something that simple. But that was also before I got COVID. I need to just try that again and see how I feel. Then I'll at least know if I have long term COVID symptoms or not. Did you happen to catch covid?
You may want to drop the 50mg anadrol to 25mg or switch to anavar. or just not use an oral at first. 50mg+ anadrol can be fatiguing on it's own
Liter O' Test
Member
yeah i think that nap is an indicator we are fucked lol.
I dont use any caffiene, stimulants ,alcohol or nicotine etc.
I was using caffeine and it just got me so irritable and messed up my CNS i could tell.
I had covid i think , i dont think this is covid related.
its sleep and cardio related unless you have something really unique medically going on
im going to do a ton more steps and see what happens. just did 15k this evening and It got my "stress" meter down to "rest" for twenty minutes, for the first time today.
Same here. I quit worrying about it. Mine stays in the mid 20's and has been for many years. I've tried everything to raise it but nothing works so I gave up on it.
Sicsemptyran
Member
HRV is highly genetic at baseline, unless you got it checked very young before PEDs, you may be troubleshooting forever something that isn’t “solvable”. Some people just have HRV’s at 10 their entire life.
That said, tren + drol + GLP-1 is going to put anyone’s HRV in the dirt, honestly impressive it isn’t lower haha!
You’d have to fully wash out the GLP over a couple months to see if it’ll raise it, so unless you want to do that I wouldn’t stress it much.
You didn’t mention GH that I saw but that also drops it significantly in most cases due to its increase in RHR and “stress”.
That said, tren + drol + GLP-1 is going to put anyone’s HRV in the dirt, honestly impressive it isn’t lower haha!
You’d have to fully wash out the GLP over a couple months to see if it’ll raise it, so unless you want to do that I wouldn’t stress it much.
You didn’t mention GH that I saw but that also drops it significantly in most cases due to its increase in RHR and “stress”.
Sicsemptyran
Member
I believe you will see it in another thread, but I use nebivolol more for that and less the BP lowering. Similar to you, was stuck in that “ON” position after the military. Helps tremendously.
Nebivolol doesn’t cross the BBB as much and doesn’t give that awful tired/lazy/demotivated feeling propranolol or metoprolol can. I find because I’m smoother I’m even more motivated and ready to go.
How low is your RHR? A tiny 2.5mg or 5mg dose of nebivolol is comically low risk compared to other items we run here. Unless you’re going into the mid/lower 40s WITH symptoms I wouldn’t sweat it.
Liter O' Test
Member
my RHR is 80s but my BP is like under 120
bananafeet
Member
"This schematic shows some of the key nodes within neural networks thought to underpin emotional mentation. These brain regions and neural networks have individual functions and also serve collective functions and are impacted by their connections with each other and by influences and inputs from other parts of the body. Examples of these include connections with the neuroendocrine axis, in particular, the hypothalamic pituitary
adrenal axis (HPA) that subserves responses to stress, and which in addition to being modulated by hormonal processes, is subject to autonomic nervous system control. Changes in the latter, and more specifically cardiac changes related to parasympathetic and sympathetic tone, can also modify inputs to the brain. A key region that is important to emotional processing and subject to many of these inputs, and itself provides outputs to many networks within the brain, is the hippocampus. The schematic shows the emergence of cells that begin as stem cells under the influence
of brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF). The generation of new cells and the many steps involved are all subject to influences such as those from proinflammatory cytokines that can diminish neurogenesis, neural integrity and reduce dendritic sprouting, thereby diminishing the functional capacity of the hippocampus. These types of changes within the brain that are driven by stress are thought to underpin the emergence of emotional
disorders, such as depression and bipolar disorder. In addition, neural networks involved in emotional regulation and processing of emotion play a
significant role, as do intrinsic biological factors that contribute to the development of necessary neural structures. Psychosocial and environmental
factors are thus able to impact these complex systems and their sophisticated interactions, and it is disruptions within these that ultimately lead to
changes that are reflected as clinical symptomatology of mood disorders."
TLDR: steroids exacerbate anxiety by overactiving the amygdala and increasing parasympathetic tone.
Source: https://www.ranzcp.org/getmedia/a46...isorders-clinical-practice-guideline-2020.pdf
adrenal axis (HPA) that subserves responses to stress, and which in addition to being modulated by hormonal processes, is subject to autonomic nervous system control. Changes in the latter, and more specifically cardiac changes related to parasympathetic and sympathetic tone, can also modify inputs to the brain. A key region that is important to emotional processing and subject to many of these inputs, and itself provides outputs to many networks within the brain, is the hippocampus. The schematic shows the emergence of cells that begin as stem cells under the influence
of brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF). The generation of new cells and the many steps involved are all subject to influences such as those from proinflammatory cytokines that can diminish neurogenesis, neural integrity and reduce dendritic sprouting, thereby diminishing the functional capacity of the hippocampus. These types of changes within the brain that are driven by stress are thought to underpin the emergence of emotional
disorders, such as depression and bipolar disorder. In addition, neural networks involved in emotional regulation and processing of emotion play a
significant role, as do intrinsic biological factors that contribute to the development of necessary neural structures. Psychosocial and environmental
factors are thus able to impact these complex systems and their sophisticated interactions, and it is disruptions within these that ultimately lead to
changes that are reflected as clinical symptomatology of mood disorders."
TLDR: steroids exacerbate anxiety by overactiving the amygdala and increasing parasympathetic tone.
Source: https://www.ranzcp.org/getmedia/a46...isorders-clinical-practice-guideline-2020.pdf
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