Aromatase Inhibitors Fix the Number but Break the System, open discussion.

[Photon]

Same hormone, very different ride though.

Injectable E2 Cypionate behaves with slow release, smooth rise and fall, longer halflife (days, not hours). It's going to give more stable blood levels.

This is something I've been wondering about, why no short esters?
From pharma, it's easy to purchase e2V and e2C amps/vials.

The follow raws are all insanely easy to get
e2base
e2cyp
e2e
e2v
e2undec

There's e2ace, seemly not popular and difficult to get, used in some non-inj pharma products.

Then there's e2b which apparently, is cheap and very easy to get.

Estradiol benzoate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It was the first estrogen to be used in humans.
No longer popular now, but still available for pets -- which means you can still buy it, pet pharma. Seems to act pretty quick if you ask me.



Raws don't cost much either.

200mg, 55bucks, from an actual legit non-UGL lab.
At 1mg/week, that's 200 weeks worth.

https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/US/en/product/sigma/e8515

 

[BALLISTIC]

This is something I've been wondering about, why no short esters?
From pharma, it's easy to purchase e2V and e2C amps/vials.

The follow raws are all insanely easy to get
e2base
e2cyp
e2e
e2v
e2undec

There's e2ace, seemly not popular and difficult to get, used in some non-inj pharma products.

Then there's e2b which apparently, is cheap and very easy to get.

Estradiol benzoate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It was the first estrogen to be used in humans.
No longer popular now, but still available for pets -- which means you can still buy it, pet pharma. Seems to act pretty quick if you ask me.

View attachment 376164

Raws don't cost much either.

200mg, 55bucks, from an actual legit non-UGL lab.
At 1mg/week, that's 200 weeks worth.

https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/US/en/product/sigma/e8515

It would be similar to oral in the sense that you’re trying to avoid spikes, but injections obviously give way more control than oral ever will. I remember asking you about a no-ester E option, and that convo is what made me think through some of these nuances more. Funny were kinda back to that in a way....

From what I’m understanding, daily dosing of a short ester E2 does smooth things out, similar to test prop vs cyp, so the logic itself isn’t wrong. The difference seems to be that estrogen sides are way more peak sensitive than testosterone sides. Even small, fast rises in E2 can show up as water retention, BP changes, nipple sensitivity, or mood shifts.

Daily dosing helps reduce the spike, but it still doesn’t flatten things the way a long ester does. Long esters keep estrogen boring and steady, and boring estrogen is usually the goal when you’re just trying to restore signaling, not actually feel it. Short esters can work in theory, they’re just less forgiving and easier to overshoot, kind of like how TNE can spike test levels into the stratosphere for a short window. It works, but it’s not always the smoothest.

If I understand things right and estrogen behaved like testosterone at the receptor level, daily E2 benzoate/acetate would probably be way more popular. ERs don’t behave like ARs once ERα especially is saturated additional estrogen doesn’t help it just turns into sides.

Small E2 changes feel huge in my experience. For instance in my last Eq cycle my knees went first. Absolute loss in strength due to crashed E2. Terrible crunchy and admitting ignorance it got to the point I couldn't crouch down then stand back up without using the counter for assistance. When I introduced just 1mg E2cyp, within 36 hours to split the time, I was back at 100 percent, honestly even felt significantly stronger. I eventually played with 2.5mg weekly, and that was my sweet spot, maybe I could go higher to 3 or 3.5mg, but being cautious.

It probably comes down to being easier to cross the line with short esters.

 

[trtchin]

Im just trying to get jacked and tanned

---

 

[johnjay06]

I take raloxifene when/if I have a gyno flare up. I never take ai’s because I could never dial it in enough not to crash my estrogen levels. And now I don’t really cycle anymore, just a little test and deca.

 

[newguy2]

This is something I've been wondering about, why no short esters?
From pharma, it's easy to purchase e2V and e2C amps/vials.

The follow raws are all insanely easy to get
e2base
e2cyp
e2e
e2v
e2undec

There's e2ace, seemly not popular and difficult to get, used in some non-inj pharma products.

Then there's e2b which apparently, is cheap and very easy to get.

Estradiol benzoate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It was the first estrogen to be used in humans.
No longer popular now, but still available for pets -- which means you can still buy it, pet pharma. Seems to act pretty quick if you ask me.

View attachment 376164

Raws don't cost much either.

200mg, 55bucks, from an actual legit non-UGL lab.
At 1mg/week, that's 200 weeks worth.

https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/US/en/product/sigma/e8515

But you can't just buy that right? Need a license?

 

[shredded.lyfe]

Same hormone, very different ride though.

Injectable E2 Cypionate behaves with slow release, smooth rise and fall, longer halflife (days, not hours). It's going to give more stable blood levels.

Some pros and cons...
Pros - way more predictable, less peaking, less bloat, BP spikes, mood swings, and bypasses first pass liver metabolism. Essentially easier to dial in small, steady doses, and feels more background than "bam " noticeable.
The Cons- slower to correct acute symptoms, easier to overshoot if dosing isn’t conservative, and not something you want to eyeball casually.

How it feels is important with joints slowly calming down, sleep improvement, libido and mood normalization.
No “estrogen rush” I guess.

This is why guys using it as damage control on EQ/Primo tend to prefer it.

Oral Estradiol behaves with rapid absorption, big peaks, fast dropoff, and shorter halflife (hours really). Not effective without continuous daily dosing.

It again like all orals hits liver first (first-pass metabolism).

Pros - works fast, easier to “feel”, useful as a diagnostic tool (does E2 help at all?) especially in this context. So having it in hand as a first step procedural trial doesn't hurt.

The Cons - spiky levels, more water retention (women look like blimps), spikes BP, and a significantly higher chance of gyno if overdone.

Oral can feel great… then sloppy.
Easier to tip bloat, nipples, edema. This is why people say “Dbol fixed my joints”....but also why that story often ends badly.

The reason I mentioned oral is because that's how women would replace their estrodial due to the way they metabolise, they get better results from oral vs the injectable

 

[BALLISTIC]

The reason I mentioned oral is because that's how women would replace their estrodial due to the way they metabolise, they get better results from oral vs the injectable

Oh yeah dude, not arguing with you, I think there is reason enough for multiple applications. I'm reading more about it daily and it's honestly confusing but the research seems to show that we can prolong this life in theory. Nothing definitively based on this exact topic, but from looking at the protective measures of E2 in contrast to crashing out going void. It seems like a no brainer, and the old school mentality of keep your levels between __-__ is dead rhetoric and anyone regurgitating it should be approached with caution for further advice. I'm not into bro science, that's perpetuating ignorance most of the time in my experience. Again this is all based off of E2 being in balance to androgen load.

 

[BALLISTIC]

But you can't just buy that right? Need a license?

Not getting into sourcing, but like anything else... It can be had for the right price. Haha

 

[Photon]

Long esters keep estrogen boring and steady, and boring estrogen is usually the goal when you’re just trying to restore signaling, not actually feel it.

For males, there's a diurnal rhythm for T, which may be why some people just feel better with daily shots. Peaks in the morning, dips at night. I assumed it was the same for e2 but apparently I'm wrong.

You see here, fluctuations in T, morning v night.
Easy to mimic, using a daily short + long ester mix.


But for e2, minor variation.


Looks like boring, slow steady is probably the way to go.
So who's up for some e2 undecanoate

The Effect of Diurnal Variation on Clinical Measurement of Serum Testosterone and Other Sex Hormone Levels in Men - PMC

Context: Although diurnal variation of testosterone and other hormones in men has been well documented, the effect of this variation on sampling during typical clinic hours has not been examined. Objective: Our objective was to examine temporal ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[bananafeet]

For males, there's a diurnal rhythm for T, which may be why some people just feel better with daily shots. Peaks in the morning, dips at night. I assumed it was the same for e2 but apparently I'm wrong.

You see here, fluctuations in T, morning v night.
Easy to mimic, using a daily short + long ester mix.
View attachment 376264

But for e2, minor variation.
View attachment 376265

Looks like boring, slow steady is probably the way to go.
So who's up for some e2 undecanoate

The Effect of Diurnal Variation on Clinical Measurement of Serum Testosterone and Other Sex Hormone Levels in Men - PMC

Context: Although diurnal variation of testosterone and other hormones in men has been well documented, the effect of this variation on sampling during typical clinic hours has not been examined. Objective: Our objective was to examine temporal ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Man Medicine on YouTube is supplementing E2 to get super high levels (90 in US numbers). He thinks it will reduce CVD.

Sort of makes me wonder if I should either:
1. Keep TRT doses at 125mg and inject E2
2. Pump the numbers up until I get side effects and keep it there (probably 200-250mg)

 

[Photon]

Man Medicine on YouTube is supplementing E2 to get super high levels (90 in US numbers). He thinks it will reduce CVD.

Sort of makes me wonder if I should either:
1. Keep TRT doses at 125mg and inject E2
2. Pump the numbers up until I get side effects and keep it there (probably 200-250mg)

90 will probably give me gyno..

@BALLISTIC
What was your e2 on 2.5mg?
e2 sensitive or normal?

 

[bananafeet]

90 will probably give me gyno..

@BALLISTIC
What was your e2 on 2.5mg?
e2 sensitive or normal?

Here is the video:

View: https://youtu.be/VHrOVRsw-9I



He takes it because his lipoprotein a is high due to genetics. I think he was trying to get a psk9 but it was too expensive.

Taking his E2 from 27 to 96 dropped his lipoa to 99.5.

He takes a statin and ezetimibe but it didn't drop his lipoa.

He argues that a high enough testosterone level can offset or make the higher E2 tolerable.

Kinda backs up @BALLISTIC assertion.

 

[BALLISTIC]

Man Medicine on YouTube is supplementing E2 to get super high levels (90 in US numbers). He thinks it will reduce CVD.

Sort of makes me wonder if I should either:
1. Keep TRT doses at 125mg and inject E2
2. Pump the numbers up until I get side effects and keep it there (probably 200-250mg)

I'll have to catch this later... Thanks dude.

90 will probably give me gyno..

@BALLISTIC
What was your e2 on 2.5mg?
e2 sensitive or normal?

1G test cyp standalone right at ^78, no AI.

1G test cyp, 500mg Eq I hit , _19, no AI.

1G test cyp, 500mg Eq, 2.5 E cyp split Mon Fri, I hit ^51. Actually 1mg, and 1.5mg if that matters. Delts with 29g 1/2.

I feel great right now dude, like childish good. Springy. My pumps at the gym have been strong, and almost not enjoyable depending on what I'm targeting, back extensions are a no currently.

Currently cruising on Sp5der T Cyp 600mg, with 2.5mg E cyp. Have labs February 3rd.

Edit: Also 10iu Opti Gold Tops

 

[bananafeet]

I'll have to catch this later... Thanks dude.


1G test cyp standalone right at ^78, no AI.

1G test cyp, 500mg Eq I hit , _19, no AI.

1G test cyp, 500mg Eq, 2.5 E cyp split Mon Fri, I hit ^51. Actually 1mg, and 1.5mg if that matters. Delts with 29g 1/2.

I feel great right now dude, like childish good. Springy. My pumps at the gym have been strong, and almost not enjoyable depending on what I'm targeting, back extensions are a no currently.

Currently cruising on Sp5der T Cyp 600mg, with 2.5mg E cyp. Have labs February 3rd.

I found an article on PCOS about how androgen exposure downregulates aromatase production.

I'll have to have a look on my computer later. But it seems just taking gear makes you produce less aromatase.

It makes sense because in a male testosterone levels are governed by negative feedback on estrogen. So technically you're own body would never be able to over produce testosterone unless there was no aromatase. Hormonally active fat (visceral) has large amounts of aromatase so there will always be some sort of testosterone suppression because of the feedback loops.

Apparently there is some mechanism whereby estrogen itself upregulates the production of aromatase so taking DHT derivates or AIs kinda breaks this.

I wonder if you could restore your aromatase production naturally or somehow. PCOS is very similar so the answer probably lies there.

 

[BALLISTIC]

I found an article on PCOS about how androgen exposure downregulates aromatase production.

I'll have to have a look on my computer later. But it seems just taking gear makes you produce less aromatase.

It makes sense because in a male testosterone levels are governed by negative feedback on estrogen. So technically you're own body would never be able to over produce testosterone unless there was no aromatase. Hormonally active fat (visceral) has large amounts of aromatase so there will always be some sort of testosterone suppression because of the feedback loops.

Apparently there is some mechanism whereby estrogen itself upregulates the production of aromatase so taking DHT derivates or AIs kinda breaks this.

I wonder if you could restore your aromatase production naturally or somehow. PCOS is very similar so the answer probably lies there.

Speak of the devil...

I'm actually blessed dude and have a great DR. I need to bring this up and see if he wants to approach it clinically and evaluate.