Spaceman Spiff
Subscriber
I wish we had a 200CM filter to push you through. the aggregates rotting your brain must be overwhelming
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
Cloudy/Lumpy HGH
- Thread starter StoopidGoat
- Start date
AlexDavis43
Member
Yo wait, I don't think the difference is big or even meaningful but might move in the other direction for some stuff
TheScholarOfBrew
Banned
Stand corrected. I suppose since it sits less in the body that it doesn't have time to react
IM = deeper, faster absorption, lower immunogenicity
SubQ=slower absorption, more exposure to antigen-presenting cells (APCs), higher chance of anti-drug antibody formation
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TheScholarOfBrew
Banned
Based on what i was referring to is OIL. Peptides and hgh would be better IM. But apparently if the oil isnt formulated right it will be worse off in the sub Q tissue than IM. Really just make sure everything is sterilized and filtered and the difference isnt even noticeable.
It's not that... SubQ stratus has the most receptors for immune response because that's the first line of defense in the human body. Without it you would probably be dead for any small cut as your body response wouldn't be aggressive enough.
So if you bypass the subq and inject IM your body has less chances to attack the solution and trigger an immune response to it as it's not engineered to be that vigilant for thing that gets released that deep without passing by the SubQ stratus.
"Aggregation of rhGH could elevate
the immunogenicity of its
pharmaceutical product". The
consequences of such aggregation are
not trivial, as "The presence of protein
aggregates may result in the reduction
of activity, induce immunologic
responses and failure of therapeutic
efficiency"
DO NOT DROP: MECHANICAL SHOCK IN VIALS CAUSES CAVITATION, PROTEIN AGGREGATION AND PARTICLE FORMATION - PMC
Industry experience suggests that g-forces sustained when vials containing protein formulations are accidentally dropped can cause aggregation and particle formation. To study this phenomenon, a shock tower was used to apply controlled g-forces to ...pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
"
A specific mechanism for aggregate
formation is mechanical shock, such as
when a vial is accidentally dropped.
Studies utilizing controlled mechanical
shock on vials containing rhGH have
shown that such events can lead to
cavitation. This process results in the
appearance of "gelatinous particles...on
the vial walls," and "subvisible particle
counts determined by microflow image
analysis increased". Crucially, it Was
T
concluded that "the mechanical shock
caused subvisible particles to form, and
such particles have the potential to
affect immunogenicity of the
formulation"? This is highly pertinent as
UGL HGH products are frequently
subjected to uncontrolled shipping and
handling, making mechanical shock and
subsequent particle formation a likely
occurrence"
Immunogenicity of therapeutic proteins: Influence of aggregation - PMC
The elicitation of anti-drug antibodies (ADA) against biotherapeutics can have detrimental effects on drug safety, efficacy, and pharmacokinetics. The immunogenicity of biotherapeutics is, therefore, an important issue. There is evidence that ...
"persistent antibodies
have been noted in patients with growth
hormone deficiency treated with
heavily-aggregated hGH, whereas
transient antibodies were seen in
patients given less aggregated forms".,
This directly links a higher burden of
aggregated HGH to a more sustained
antibody response. The underlying
reason aggregates are immunogenic
relates to their structure; "Aggregates
contain repetitive epitopes that might
mimic viruses or bacteria. By binding
and cross linking the B-cell receptors,
such stuctures can induce antibody
formation in a T-independent manne"
"Immunogenicity can be
induced by the active-drug substance
product, but more commonly results
from manufacturing impurities
originating from the producing cell line
or media components"." Furthermore,
"The presence of impurities in biological
products, structural modifications as a
result of the manufacturing process
and/or suboptimal storage conditions
can increase the risk of
immunogenicity"
"high levels of
host cell protein in a batch used for
Phase Ill studies were associated with
up to 60% of patients developing
antigrowth hormone antibodies (vs 2%
of patients treated with the reference
biologic)". This increased
immunogenicity was linked to E.
coli-derived protein impurities. The
issue was mitigated when "An additional
filtration step introduced in the
manufacturing process reduced the
immunogenicity of the product to levels
comparable to the innovator product".
This case clearly illustrates that host
cell protein (HCP) impurities, which are
almost certainly present in higher and
more variable quantities in UGL HGH
produced without GMP, can
significantly enhance the
immunogenicity of rhGH"
Assessment of innate immune response modulating impurities (IIRMI) in synthetic peptide drugs (liraglutide) - PubMed
Liraglutide for Injection is a GLP-1 analog that stimulates insulin secretion from pancreatic β-cells in a Glucose dependent manner for the treatment of diabetic patients, especially adult patients with type 2 diabetes, to control blood glucose levels. A generic drug of Liraglutide for injection...pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Even trace levels of impurities in
synthetically produced peptides can be
problematic. A study on liraglutide, a
synthetic peptide, found that "even
trace levels of innate immune response
modulating impurities (IIRMI) in
synthetic peptide drugs...can activate
innate immunity...leading
to...enhancement of product
immunogenicity". This suggests that if
UGL HGH is produced via chemical
synthesis rather than recombinant
technology, impurities from the
synthetic process itself could contribute
to an immune response.
"
The development of anti-drug
antibodies (ADAs) against rhGH, often
triggered by the product quality issues
discussed previously, can have clinically
significant consequences, most notably
a reduction in the hormone's
therapeutic efficacy.
Official regulatory documents for
pharmaceutical-grade somatropin
acknowledge this risk. The FDA label for
Norditropin states: "In the case of
growth hormone, antibodies with
binding capacities lower than 2 mg/mL
have not been associated with growth
attenuation. In a very small number of
patients treated with somatropin, when
binding capacity was greater than 2 mg/
mL, interference with the growth
response was observed". This
establishes a direct link between a
certain threshold of ADA formation and
a discernible loss of rhGH efficacy"
I sat up all night researching all this. Probably wasted what? Six hours? Yeah, hope this is sufficient
@Ghoul
Seems like your info is indeed backed by scientific grounding. I was almost convinced that it could totally be placebo but then piles and piles of research papers all points to the following conclusions......maybe immune system strength equally prevents or causes an "your milage my very" response.
I'm very glad web crawlers exist. Makes it trivial to pull from vast amounts of academic research.
I think that the ^ (damage from dropping) is what is goin on. I will cite the conclusion again below. 85% of the time my Iron Lion HGH is clear but lately I have ben noticing a small amount of cloudiness and also some particulate matter (PM).
The bottom line seems to be that UPS, etc., needs to be more careful during shipping. No matter how good the original GH is, if you drop it it will be damaged:
As a result of this cavitation, subvisible particles were created in the bulk solution of the vials. In addition, protein particles were visible on the vial walls following shock treatment. The amount of protein adhering to the vial walls increased with drop height. For rhGH, the protein adhering to the vial walls following shock treatment showed increased levels of oxidation.
The loss of monomeric protein due to cavitation likely was not large enough to affect potency of protein in the bulk solution. However, the mechanical shock caused subvisible particles to form, and such particles have the potential to affect immunogenicity of the formulation<a href="DO NOT DROP: MECHANICAL SHOCK IN VIALS CAUSES CAVITATION, PROTEIN AGGREGATION AND PARTICLE FORMATION - PMC">27</a>. Thus, packaging, formulation excipient composition, and process conditions should be designed to minimize mechanical shock and the potential for cavitation
CharlesV
Member
i have had success with SSA, specifically their G24 kits between early Feb and late April. that said, due to a couple of issues, this thread being one of them, i’d be hesitant to order at the moment. cloudy kits is one thing, it’s really the fact that SSA didn’t work with the customer, replace or refund.
Yes, I am inclined to agree. I have been using Iron Lion successfully for a long time. However I have been seeing some cloudiness in their GH as of recently. I am getting an IGF-1 test in a month.
Another thing, IL is more expensive, $1k for 10 100iu kits. I am tempted to ask for a good source, but I know the result will be a cacophony of posters saying "do your research!"
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CharlesV
Member
i can promise you with about 30-45 minutes of scrolling the past couple of months worth of underground threads, you’ll find multiple winners. there is quality growth out there to be be had.
I spent most of the day on the QSC, SSA, and other GH threads. Maybe I am slipping but I was at one time considered a pretty good researcher. There seems to be a constant problem with cloudiness spanning multiple sources.
Personally I rely upon IGF-1 labs but I will not be getting any for another month.
Would you be so kind as to suggest a GH source?
AlexDavis43
Member
If getting dropped damaged lyophilized GH, no one would ever get good GH
Regardless of the shipping service, packs get the shit kicked out of them all the time
AlexDavis43
Member
There aren't bubbles in lyophilized GH. That's not how bubbles work.
I'm not gonna accuse you of not reading the article.....
But it's talking about after reconstitution. It's right there in the methods section.
Ah....yes, I think the study I quoted was of reconstituted GH being dropped. It would seem, then, that something else is going on.
As I have stated, we need an IGF-1 lab or three.
Spaceman Spiff
Subscriber
I saw you deleted that post but FYI.
Pubmed is not a highly respected source...
its a place where published studies are in a database
No different than going to a library. you can find a shit book in the non fiction area that has poor supporting evidence.
You have to be able to interpret studies, find weaknesses in how they measure outcomes, also see if there is a conflict of interest...
There are many other things to consider.
These are just a few.
Maybe things have changed but when I was in grad school, anything that made it into pubmed was usually well vetted. Pubmed was (and is) considered highly authorative:
"PubMed is a free and publicly available resource provided by the US National Library of Medicine. It covers the biomedical literature and, as the free version of MEDLINE, is highly authoritative."
Most others agree.
As to the study at hand, yes the GH was already reconstituted. Thus powder puck damage during shipping does not explain why there seems to be so much cloudy GH at the moment.
I have been using IL orange tops for quite a while and from my memory usually the product was nice and clear after giving it 10 minutes or so to reconstitute. And my IGF-1's were always good. But my current batch is somewhat cloudy and of course even at the price of $100 per kit (10 kit order) is expensive.
Thus I came back onto this forum to try and find a new source. I was recommended Sigma domestic but they are OOS and also demonstrating cloudiness. I am now looking into Opti. If you have advice (that is not "search") I would be happy to listen.
I do remember this forum as a place of highly quarrelsome discourse and it seems that that act has not changed.
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AlexDavis43
Member
Please don't confuse highly quarrelsome with unlikely to spoon feed.
Meso is both but one has nothing to do with the other.
Spaceman Spiff
Subscriber
its vetted to have many studies and things are published. As you should know from grad school(or any basic college course where you have to cite), there are plenty of shit studies on there.
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