Stenbolone acetate discussion

[Type-IIx]

@asaly I am only being adversarial because (a) I want to challenge you a bit because I think you're capable, (b) this method of analysis draws out what is true vs. false for readers, & (c) I don't want to be misinterpreted, because it follows that some of what you stated here was based on misinterpreted earlier posts that I made, and if not, then just surmise.

 

[lonewolf54321]

@Type-IIx is there anything unique or special about stenbolone (other than being exotic I guess) that would support taking it over mast or primo? Or are they similar enough that it's just a case of try them all and see what works best specifically for me?

 

[cmK9s33]

I recall also basically opining that IMO 1-Test ("DHB") doesn't have any particular use case since it's just another androst-1-ene-3-one like Primo, Mast, and Sten, and given the tie-breaker – this unfavorable rodent data as well as associations with increased C-reactive protein – vs. its counterparts, I'd never use it as a result. So we agree in our opinion, but I cannot convince people that cardiovascular/hepatic risks are important. I cannot stand in their shoes and weigh their tradeoff balancing for them. If their AAS adventurism (desire to experiment with exotic compounds due to curiosity) or price sensitivity (assuming 1-Testo is relatively cheap) are weighed heavily by them, then those factors might rationally outweigh these risks.

Is there anything (other than some user reports) that would indicate 1-test was significantly more effective than testosterone at increasing strength? This has been mentioned by some users but not all. And I cannot tease out any common factor among those that report said outcome.

 

[asaly]

View attachment 275662

All I said was "it's maybe a bit stronger," because... maybe it is, maybe it's weaker too. They're functionally equivalent, practically identical, including in muscle anabolic potency per-mg.

I didn't think about 1-methylation of primo and the fact that it may increase the anabolic nature of primo

Says who?

purely anecdotally, many ridden people claim that it is stronger per milligram. I think this is why its often wrongly compared to trenbolone

Not toxicity in rats, just increased liver weight.

I was wrong that an enlarged liver is always a symptom of toxicity

I don't know what this means. You mean no vendor has submitted it for public lab reports?

no, I meant medically studies on humans because DHB has never been a drug for humans or even animals

Is this a benefit or a cost?

simple fact, I personally love DHT

Speculative.

I just know the local market, when the DHB hype started in my country about 6 years ago, many labs gave boldenone cypionate instead

 

[asaly]

@asaly I am only being adversarial because (a) I want to challenge you a bit because I think you're capable, (b) this method of analysis draws out what is true vs. false for readers, & (c) I don't want to be misinterpreted, because it follows that some of what you stated here was based on misinterpreted earlier posts that I made, and if not, then just surmise.

I don't feel like you're adversarial, I'm very happy every time you reply


it's true, I misinterpreted your opinion, I assumed few things without hard evidence

 

[Type-IIx]

Anyway, let me attempt to unify, insofar as one can, the domain of opinion with the domain of reality.

Here's how I weigh the use of the following compounds for use in men (i.e., androgenicity & masculinizing effects do not reduce tolerability):

1. 1-Testosterone ("DHB")
2. Drostanolone ("Mast")
3. Metenolone ("Primo")
4. Stenbolone ("Sten")

2 > 3 > 4 > 1

Worked Example of a Rational Approach to Compound Selection

Efficacy (1st dimension):
Because, 1-testosterone, metenolone, & stenbolone are 1-enes, marked by reduced androgenic potency in man, these are attenuated androgens & all characterized by mild anabolic effects in man dissociated from markedly low androgenic effects; and are equivalent per-mg in anabolic potency.

1 ≈ 3 ≈ 4

Drostanolone was discontinued for its use in metastatic-resistant breast cancer because it was too androgenic (masculinizing in women), it is the more potent androgen among these drugs. It is, too, associated with more strength benefits, and it shows up quite often in positive doping control samples from strength & power athletes. Its particular benefit among the 4 is aggression & therefore strength via augmented neural drive (+1 for drostanolone). Albeit indirectly, strength increases permit more intense work & increased mechanical tension, in turn enhancing hypertrophy via training intensity.

(1 ≈ 3 ≈ 4) < 2

Tolerability (2nd dimension):
1-Testosterone is difficult to hold in solution, it crashes readily, and as a result, is anecdotally associated with severe PIP (-1), as well as, likely due to the use of solvents like guaiacol, to increases to C-reactive protein (-2; cardiovascular risks, &...); and increases to liver weight in a rodent model (-3 for 1-testosterone; plausible hepatotoxicity risks).

1 < (3 ≈ 4) < 2

Intramuscular injections are associated with pain & swelling at the injection site.

Metenolone, as enanthate (e.g., Rimobolan), & drostanolone as enanthate (i.e., "Mast E"), require only a moderately-long injection interval of every 7 - 10 days or their dose (fAUC) diminishes.

Stenbolone is available, as it was commercially as a pharmaceutical product, as stenbolone acetate. The acetate ester necessitates every 2 - 3 day injection frequencies or its dose (fAUC) diminishes rapidly (-1 for stenbolone).

1 < 4 < 3 < 2, proof of the opening claim.

I can continue this out further along the dimensions of tolerability & efficacy (e.g., per-mL potency), but all that I'll end up doing is continuing to prove this same statement.

Note: intangible & volatile factors like effects on mood, energy, libido, & wellbeing, and market factors (supply/demand/scarcity/price) are not weighed because they're simply labile & capricious, prone to tastes & preferences, psychology, trade, etc.

 

[Type-IIx]

@Type-IIx is there anything unique or special about stenbolone (other than being exotic I guess) that would support taking it over mast or primo? Or are they similar enough that it's just a case of try them all and see what works best specifically for me?

See:

Anyway, let me attempt to unify, insofar as one can, the domain of opinion with the domain of reality.

Here's how I weigh the use of the following compounds for use in men (i.e., androgenicity & masculinizing effects do not reduce tolerability):

1. 1-Testosterone ("DHB")
2. Drostanolone ("Mast")
3. Metenolone ("Primo")
4. Stenbolone ("Sten")

2 > 3 > 4 > 1

Worked Example of a Rational Approach to Compound Selection

Efficacy (1st dimension):
Because, 1-testosterone, metenolone, & stenbolone are 1-enes, marked by reduced androgenic potency in man, these are attenuated androgens & all characterized by mild anabolic effects in man dissociated from markedly low androgenic effects; and are equivalent per-mg in anabolic potency.

1 ≈ 3 ≈ 4

Drostanolone was discontinued for its use in metastatic-resistant breast cancer because it was too androgenic (masculinizing in women), it is the more potent androgen among these drugs. It is, too, associated with more strength benefits, and it shows up quite often in positive doping control samples from strength & power athletes. Its particular benefit among the 4 is aggression & therefore strength via augmented neural drive (+1 for drostanolone). Albeit indirectly, strength increases permit more intense work & increased mechanical tension, in turn enhancing hypertrophy via training intensity.

(1 ≈ 3 ≈ 4) < 2

Tolerability (2nd dimension):
1-Testosterone is difficult to hold in solution, it crashes readily, and as a result, is anecdotally associated with severe PIP (-1), as well as, likely due to the use of solvents like guaiacol, to increases to C-reactive protein (-2; cardiovascular risks, &...); and increases to liver weight in a rodent model (-3 for 1-testosterone; plausible hepatotoxicity risks).

1 < (3 ≈ 4) < 2

Intramuscular injections are associated with pain & swelling at the injection site.

Metenolone, as enanthate (e.g., Rimobolan), & drostanolone as enanthate (i.e., "Mast E"), require only a moderately-long injection interval of every 7 - 10 days or their dose (fAUC) diminishes.

Stenbolone is available, as it was commercially as a pharmaceutical product, as stenbolone acetate. The acetate ester necessitates every 2 - 3 day injection frequencies or its dose (fAUC) diminishes rapidly (-1 for stenbolone).

1 < 4 < 3 < 2, proof of the opening claim.

I can continue this out further along the dimensions of tolerability & efficacy (e.g., per-mL potency), but all that I'll end up doing is continuing to prove this same statement.

Note: intangible & volatile factors like effects on mood, energy, libido, & wellbeing, and market factors (supply/demand/scarcity/price) are not weighed because they're simply labile & capricious, prone to tastes & preferences, psychology, trade, etc.

 

[lonewolf54321]

Thanks @Type-IIx for your input. I appreciate your time.

 

[BigJ89]

Anyway, let me attempt to unify, insofar as one can, the domain of opinion with the domain of reality.

Here's how I weigh the use of the following compounds for use in men (i.e., androgenicity & masculinizing effects do not reduce tolerability):

1. 1-Testosterone ("DHB")
2. Drostanolone ("Mast")
3. Metenolone ("Primo")
4. Stenbolone ("Sten")

2 > 3 > 4 > 1

Worked Example of a Rational Approach to Compound Selection

Efficacy (1st dimension):
Because, 1-testosterone, metenolone, & stenbolone are 1-enes, marked by reduced androgenic potency in man, these are attenuated androgens & all characterized by mild anabolic effects in man dissociated from markedly low androgenic effects; and are equivalent per-mg in anabolic potency.

1 ≈ 3 ≈ 4

Drostanolone was discontinued for its use in metastatic-resistant breast cancer because it was too androgenic (masculinizing in women), it is the more potent androgen among these drugs. It is, too, associated with more strength benefits, and it shows up quite often in positive doping control samples from strength & power athletes. Its particular benefit among the 4 is aggression & therefore strength via augmented neural drive (+1 for drostanolone). Albeit indirectly, strength increases permit more intense work & increased mechanical tension, in turn enhancing hypertrophy via training intensity.

(1 ≈ 3 ≈ 4) < 2

Tolerability (2nd dimension):
1-Testosterone is difficult to hold in solution, it crashes readily, and as a result, is anecdotally associated with severe PIP (-1), as well as, likely due to the use of solvents like guaiacol, to increases to C-reactive protein (-2; cardiovascular risks, &...); and increases to liver weight in a rodent model (-3 for 1-testosterone; plausible hepatotoxicity risks).

1 < (3 ≈ 4) < 2

Intramuscular injections are associated with pain & swelling at the injection site.

Metenolone, as enanthate (e.g., Rimobolan), & drostanolone as enanthate (i.e., "Mast E"), require only a moderately-long injection interval of every 7 - 10 days or their dose (fAUC) diminishes.

Stenbolone is available, as it was commercially as a pharmaceutical product, as stenbolone acetate. The acetate ester necessitates every 2 - 3 day injection frequencies or its dose (fAUC) diminishes rapidly (-1 for stenbolone).

1 < 4 < 3 < 2, proof of the opening claim.

I can continue this out further along the dimensions of tolerability & efficacy (e.g., per-mL potency), but all that I'll end up doing is continuing to prove this same statement.

Note: intangible & volatile factors like effects on mood, energy, libido, & wellbeing, and market factors (supply/demand/scarcity/price) are not weighed because they're simply labile & capricious, prone to tastes & preferences, psychology, trade, etc.

So Mast wins?…be easy on me..i
Know this gets said a lot but I truly enjoy reading your posts, thank you

 

[asaly]

@Type-IIx
one thing I don't understand is that primo is largely reduced by 3 alpha HSD and Schanzer states that its main metabolite is 3 alpha reduced

DHB, however, from what I understand, undergoes 3alpha reduction to a lesser extent

1-Testo produces as urine metabolites:

* 5α-dihydrotestosterone ("DHT")
* 5α-androst-1-ene-3α,17β-diol
* 5α-androst-1-ene-3,17-dione
* 5α-androst-1-ene-3α-ol-17-one
* 1-epitestosterone

It is noteworthy that 1-Testosterone's primary metabolite is 5α-DHT:

although I'm not entirely sure where this conclusion comes from, could it be because the 3alpha DHB reduction reaction is reversible?



I know you currently have a different theory for the increase in DHT levels due to DHB

Therefore, can't we assume that DHB will be more anabolic than primo?

 

[Type-IIx]

@Type-IIx
one thing I don't understand is that primo is largely reduced by 3 alpha HSD and Schanzer states that its main metabolite is 3 alpha reduced

DHB, however, from what I understand, undergoes 3alpha reduction to a lesser extent


although I'm not entirely sure where this conclusion comes from, could it be because the 3alpha DHB reduction reaction is reversible?

View attachment 275690

I know you currently have a different theory for the increase in DHT levels due to DHB

Therefore, can't we assume that DHB will be more anabolic than primo?

That shows extensive hydroxylation of the 3-keto group via 3α-HSD (see (5) & (Adiol) & their α-oriented hydroxy at C-3) and reduction of the C-1,2 double bond (see (Adiol)). What's odd is that is also shows 1,2-dihydrogenation to DHT, but there is no known enzyme capable of this... So either there must be a hiterto unidentified one, or my hypothesis that 1-testosterone increases DHT by acting as a 17β-HSD1 inhibitor may be correct. Also, you shouldn't truncate metabolic steps like this, always share the full data.

 

[Type-IIx]

So Mast wins?…be easy on me..i
Know this gets said a lot but I truly enjoy reading your posts, thank you

Basically, I think so! And I arrived at that by deduction through weighing those factors involved across the dimensions of efficacy & tolerability.

 

[Ector]

experiences with dhb. reduces e2? as in the case of equipose and primabolan

 

[Banana Joe]

...
I can continue this out further along the dimensions of tolerability & efficacy (e.g., per-mL potency), but all that I'll end up doing is continuing to prove this same statement.

Note: intangible & volatile factors like effects on mood, energy, libido, & wellbeing, ... are not weighed because they're simply labile & capricious, prone to tastes & preferences, psychology, trade, etc.

Thank you for those posts in this topic, I found them to be very interesting.

Assuming that Mast, Prim and Sten are pretty interchangeable in terms of anabolic potency, I am curious if you could nevertheless tell us anything about the highlighted paragraph.

Because if Stenbolone has a more pronounced, or at least different effect on the mod, I would be interested in it, as a 1-200mg TRT addition.
Does the chemical structure indicate its neuroactive steroid effect is any different to the other two?
I react quite well, in terms of mood, to 7-10mg of MENT as a TRT addition, if that is any indicator. Even similar doses of Tren have a similar effect on me. Though I don't get more aggressive, on higher doses of the latter, as well.

Also, you claim Stenbolone is "functionally identical" to Primo here. Is that then also true for its effect on E2?


On a side note: From what it reads like, I bet this would have sold, IF offered as StenE at a price between Mast and Primo, even before DHT's pretty much became unobtainium.

 

[Type-IIx]

Thank you for those posts in this topic, I found them to be very interesting.

Assuming that Mast, Prim and Sten are pretty interchangeable in terms of anabolic potency, I am curious if you could nevertheless tell us anything about the highlighted paragraph.

Because if Stenbolone has a more pronounced, or at least different effect on the mod, I would be interested in it, as a 1-200mg TRT addition.
Does the chemical structure indicate its neuroactive steroid effect is any different to the other two?
I react quite well, in terms of mood, to 7-10mg of MENT as a TRT addition, if that is any indicator. Even similar doses of Tren have a similar effect on me. Though I don't get more aggressive, on higher doses of the latter, as well.

Also, you claim Stenbolone is "functionally identical" to Primo here. Is that then also true for its effect on E2?


On a side note: From what it reads like, I bet this would have sold, IF offered as StenE at a price between Mast and Primo, even before DHT's pretty much became unobtainium.

The point of that statement was there's no consistency to steroids affecting mood, it's labile or capricious, changeable, without rhyme or reason, really. Huge inter-individual differences [between individuals] and even intra-individual [for the same person].

No steroid consistently boosts mood besides testosterone when going from low to moderately-high levels… some like Dianabol [because of its effects on ACTH], some like Proviron [because they're one of the users who get the DHEA boost and like it]. By and large, somewhere, without even looking hard, you're gonna find someone who feels like shit on something you feel great on. There's simply too much individual variation to talk meaningfully about this aspect of steroid use.

 

[Banana Joe]

The point of that statement was there's no consistency to steroids affecting mood, it's labile or capricious, changeable, without rhyme or reason, really. Huge inter-individual differences [between individuals] and even intra-individual [for the same person].

No steroid consistently boosts mood besides testosterone when going from low to moderately-high levels… some like Dianabol [because of its effects on ACTH], some like Proviron [because they're one of the users who get the DHEA boost and like it]. By and large, somewhere, without even looking hard, you're gonna find someone who feels like shit on something you feel great on. There's simply too much individual variation to talk meaningfully about this aspect of steroid use.

Thanks, not the answer I was hoping for, but I guess should have expected it. Have you ever written an something about how different compounds affect the mood/psyche?
It is hard to find anything meaningful about this subject, other than tests is mostly always good, and DHTs often also boost the mood.

 

[Tommy_CRITICAL]

Funny that this topic should come up, considering Sten Ace seems to be one of those forgotten "gems" from the 90s.

Allegedly Sten Ace was Dan Duchaine's favourite compound, and as we know, he will have tried pretty much everything.

Anyway, I very recently came across some Sten, and snapped it up. Firstly as I like trying new things, but also with how scarce Mast has been lately, it seemed about the best alternative (as I still haven't come across DHB since things got difficult).

My test subjects have been absolutely loving the Sten, some have even said they prefer it to Primo, particularly as being such a fast ester, results come quickly.

So overall the feedback has been unanimously positive, and mast/primo are still available so it's not because they have no other choice.

 

[Type-IIx]

Thanks, not the answer I was hoping for, but I guess should have expected it. Have you ever written an something about how different compounds affect the mood/psyche?
It is hard to find anything meaningful about this subject, other than tests is mostly always good, and DHTs often also boost the mood.

No bro, because there's nothing meaningful to be said about the topic. It's essentially random.

Besides, nobody should be using steroids to achieve any sort of mood change. Gear is for strength or muscle size, body composition changes. They're not psych. drugs!

I'd argue that if your mood is substantially affected in either direction, "up" or "down," you should seriously think about picking another steroid or reducing your dose – making a change.

You should be happy about the performance/body comp. benefits it's giving you, that's it.

As boring as it sounds, the measure of success in dialing in compounds/dosing is the absence of – or management of – side effects coupled with achieving body comp./strength goals, and that's basically it.

 

[Type-IIx]

No bro, because there's nothing meaningful to be said about the topic. It's essentially random.

Besides, nobody should be using steroids to achieve any sort of mood change. Gear is for strength or muscle size, body composition changes. They're not psych. drugs!

I'd argue that if your mood is substantially affected in either direction, "up" or "down," you should seriously think about picking another steroid or reducing your dose – making a change.

You should be happy about the performance/body comp. benefits it's giving you, that's it.

As boring as it sounds, the measure of success in dialing in compounds/dosing is the absence of – or management of – side effects coupled with achieving body comp./strength goals, and that's basically it.

I've written about Deca's particular effects on learning and memory a la dopamine, though! That one does stand out.

 

[Type-IIx]

Funny that this topic should come up, considering Sten Ace seems to be one of those forgotten "gems" from the 90s.

Allegedly Sten Ace was Dan Duchaine's favourite compound, and as we know, he will have tried pretty much everything.

Anyway, I very recently came across some Sten, and snapped it up. Firstly as I like trying new things, but also with how scarce Mast has been lately, it seemed about the best alternative (as I still haven't come across DHB since things got difficult).

My test subjects have been absolutely loving the Sten, some have even said they prefer it to Primo, particularly as being such a fast ester, results come quickly.

So overall the feedback has been unanimously positive, and mast/primo are still available so it's not because they have no other choice.

Duchaine's "sentimental favorite," indeed.