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Sleep issues
- Thread starter Milad
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Ghoul
Member
Do you stay asleep once you fall asleep?
jung
Member
Are you taking normal Melatonin or sustained-release(SR) Melatonin that releases slowly over 6-8 hours?
My sleep stack if you want to research it:
-- 1.5mg SR Melatonin (Life Extension)
-- 3g Glycine (Thorne)
-- 500mg GABA (NOW)
-- 120mg Shoden Ashwagandha (Nootropics Depot)
-- 100mg Apigenin (Toniiq)
-- 400mg Magnesium Bisglycinate (Nootropics Depot)
Feel like you just have to test out different dosages of things to find what works for you. I started out at 300mcg of SR melatonin and titrated up until I found I was dreaming more and woke up more refreshed.
The Shoden Ashwagandha, Glycine, GABA, and Apigenin I think are the contributing supplements to help me fall asleep.
I recommend not to get into things like Seroquel or Benadryl. These are not great long term solutions. The Seroquel is a bitch to get off of in time and has some of the nastiest withdrawal symptoms you can imagine; its hell. I speak from personal experience on that one; I am on a long term 1mg titration down protocol involving liquid Serouquel suspension to manage the dosing more accurately.
BabaJagga
Member
if i wont stay asleep and wake up often, what could help?
not really for example yesterday I couldn’t go to sleep till 2 and was up by 8 and the night before I hardly got any sleep and sometimes when I wake to use restroom there is no way I’m able to fall sleep
BamaCrazy
Banned
Get Trazodone if the OTC methods fail you. It’s effective. Its benefits do not decrease over time. I do not wake up feeling drugged up in a haze. It helps to fall asleep and stay asleep
I did actually use trazodone 100mg didn’t notice much on it tbh
Ghoul
Member
I'm sure some would disagree, but if you need a full nights sleep before you go insane, I'm all for pharma solutions for the short term.
The trick is to use the shortest acting drug necessary so you minimize any sides the next day.
If you only need to fall asleep, or go back to sleep after waking, Zaleplon is very short acting. It'll put you to sleep, and wears off in a couple of hours.
Zopiclone is a shorter acting "all night" sleep med, but needs to be taken no less than 6 hours prior to driving.
If you still wake too early, esZopiclone lasts longer, but should be taken 8 hours prior to needing to drive.
Start lower than the minimum dose for each. All of these build tolerance quickly, and should be used sparingly. Personally I use them to reset my sleep cycle, as a last resort. When used intermittently, they're all very effective and been lifesavers, but I'd never use them more than a couple of nights in a row without taking a week off at least.
Doctors typically prescribe them for 6 weeks use at the most, but I wouldn't use them nightly like that, personally.
The trick is to use the shortest acting drug necessary so you minimize any sides the next day.
If you only need to fall asleep, or go back to sleep after waking, Zaleplon is very short acting. It'll put you to sleep, and wears off in a couple of hours.
Zopiclone is a shorter acting "all night" sleep med, but needs to be taken no less than 6 hours prior to driving.
If you still wake too early, esZopiclone lasts longer, but should be taken 8 hours prior to needing to drive.
Start lower than the minimum dose for each. All of these build tolerance quickly, and should be used sparingly. Personally I use them to reset my sleep cycle, as a last resort. When used intermittently, they're all very effective and been lifesavers, but I'd never use them more than a couple of nights in a row without taking a week off at least.
Doctors typically prescribe them for 6 weeks use at the most, but I wouldn't use them nightly like that, personally.
Last edited:
Rakusa
Member
What w/d's are you talking about? I never noticed anything jumping from 25mg to 0 (never went higher than 25 though)
and to your list I want to add l-taurine (slaps hard) or l-theanine, both kinda natural supplements.
BamaCrazy
Banned
What about gabapentin? It’s not usually recommended as a sleeping aid but it helps my Wife sleep all night. And it’s pretty safe on liver/kidney.
petit_rafalet
New Member
Are you taking stimulants during the day?
Are you taking statins or thyroid hormones?
Are you taking statins or thyroid hormones?
jung
Member
Oh man, I could write a book on the withdrawals I went through.
I went on Seroquel about 8 years ago and was up to 150mg per day at one point, helped stabilize me when I was in a poor mental place. Also did help me sleep, which come to find out was the main culprit for the poor mental health.
So a double edged sword; I hate to admit it, but I do give credit to Seroquel for helping me. But it hijacks your CNS in several ways.
Now, the threshold for withdrawal symptoms will vary for person to person, but it seems that the higher the dose you go and longer you are on it, the more likely withdrawal symptoms will occur and increase in intensity.
Long story short; I experienced for months the following: nocturnal panic attacks (I wish that upon no one), 24/7 palpitations and premature atrial contractions, severe anxiety (I am a calm individual so this was odd), panic attacks apart from the nocturnal ones, severe insomnia, went three days without sleep and now understand what truly losing one’s mind means and feels like (again, wish that upon no one), and feeling like I was going to die. Was very close to admitting myself to a mental institution.
What caused this series of withdrawal symptoms was tittering down from 25mg to 12.5mg. I tried to white knuckle through it, but gave in and went back to 25mg. Within 24 hours all my issues went away. This was all under the supervision of my psychiatrist.
I am now doing great. Sleep like a baby and back to my old self.
BamaCrazy
Banned
Yep. She’s taking it for nerve pain but it knocks her out.
Sleep is an incredibly complicated biological phenomenon.
The very first question you have to ask is whether you have another condition that could be disturbing your sleep. You are *lucky* if the answer is yes, because almost everything in medicine is easier than primary insomnia. If it's apnea, you get cosplay as a fighter pilot every night, which is cool.
While you're making sure sure to eliminate medical causes of insomnia, you have to work on sleep hygiene. I'm sure Mayo or CDC has a guide you can google so I won't repeat it here. Try some magnesium, try some melatonin... see if anything works. Definitely jack off... it can't hurt. (Unless you have some really advanced technique I've never even thought of, and then him my PMs please.)
This is the fork in the road where most people are when they start asking about sleep problems... they've stopped drinking coffee at 8 PM but haven't really spoken to a doctor.
My best advice is that, unless you have a medical necessity to get immediate sleep, pursue cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) before you try medication. By necessity, I mean something like a seizure or psychiatric disorder that makes sleep deprivation especially dangerous.
CBT is not immediate, and the typical sleep restriction protocols are very uncomfortable, but we've got like two decades of literature that show them beating out every pharmaceutical intervention.
Where do the drugs come in? Well, if you had a bad night or two and haven't messed with sleeping meds, two diphenhydramine (Benadryl) will probably put you on your ass just fine. However, this isn't a good long-term approach -- efficacy fades, for sure, but more importantly, diphenhydramine is an anticholinergic, which is a class of drugs associated with higher likelihoods and earlier onsets of dementia with regular exposure. This applies to doxylamine (some Unisom formulations in the US).
One of the first drugs your doctor will likely try is trazodone or an SSRI. SSRIs are fantastic medications, but they're also incredibly powerful. If you have a long relationship with your doctor, and you may have symptoms of depression an/or anxiety, sleep might be a symptom. That said, one cannot just get on and off an SSRI to see if it works like with other medications. Don't be macho about possible depression, but don't swing too far the other way and jump in without consideration.
Benzodiazepines as a class are usually effective in promoting sleep, even if disrupting architecture, but are horribly addictive and accrue tolerance. They're best prescribed for short periods, but no one wants to stop and doctors aren't the best as forcing it.
The hypnotics (z-drugs) vary in efficacy and (frankly) danger. Ambien is one of the most unpredictable substances you can get from a pharmacy, and it's prescribed freely. I would caution against it. Eszopiclone is the best of the bunch as far as we know -- low tolerance rates even up to six months (which was the length of the study), but relatively long elimination half-life. That means you can only safely take it when you have time for a full night's sleep or else you're going to be driving impaired in the morning.
I have to cop to being a Lunesta (eszopiclone) stan because of a neurological issue, and while it does have its downsides, it's relatively easy to manage -- no e-mails at night, take it based on the clock rather than my state, etc. The drugs are a little too young to know if long-term use fucks us, but I guess I'm offering myself as tribute.
Trazodone is a mixed bag. Some studies show it leading to earlier memory decline, some show it having cognitive protective effects. It is worth noting that it is used, at higher doses (~300 mg), as an anti-depressant. There is a strong YMMV component to peoples' reactions. (It can also, very rarely, lead to priapism that requires medical intervention.) It seems like it's one of the safest regular options, so if lowish doses help, god speed.
The very first question you have to ask is whether you have another condition that could be disturbing your sleep. You are *lucky* if the answer is yes, because almost everything in medicine is easier than primary insomnia. If it's apnea, you get cosplay as a fighter pilot every night, which is cool.
While you're making sure sure to eliminate medical causes of insomnia, you have to work on sleep hygiene. I'm sure Mayo or CDC has a guide you can google so I won't repeat it here. Try some magnesium, try some melatonin... see if anything works. Definitely jack off... it can't hurt. (Unless you have some really advanced technique I've never even thought of, and then him my PMs please.)
This is the fork in the road where most people are when they start asking about sleep problems... they've stopped drinking coffee at 8 PM but haven't really spoken to a doctor.
My best advice is that, unless you have a medical necessity to get immediate sleep, pursue cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) before you try medication. By necessity, I mean something like a seizure or psychiatric disorder that makes sleep deprivation especially dangerous.
CBT is not immediate, and the typical sleep restriction protocols are very uncomfortable, but we've got like two decades of literature that show them beating out every pharmaceutical intervention.
Where do the drugs come in? Well, if you had a bad night or two and haven't messed with sleeping meds, two diphenhydramine (Benadryl) will probably put you on your ass just fine. However, this isn't a good long-term approach -- efficacy fades, for sure, but more importantly, diphenhydramine is an anticholinergic, which is a class of drugs associated with higher likelihoods and earlier onsets of dementia with regular exposure. This applies to doxylamine (some Unisom formulations in the US).
One of the first drugs your doctor will likely try is trazodone or an SSRI. SSRIs are fantastic medications, but they're also incredibly powerful. If you have a long relationship with your doctor, and you may have symptoms of depression an/or anxiety, sleep might be a symptom. That said, one cannot just get on and off an SSRI to see if it works like with other medications. Don't be macho about possible depression, but don't swing too far the other way and jump in without consideration.
Benzodiazepines as a class are usually effective in promoting sleep, even if disrupting architecture, but are horribly addictive and accrue tolerance. They're best prescribed for short periods, but no one wants to stop and doctors aren't the best as forcing it.
The hypnotics (z-drugs) vary in efficacy and (frankly) danger. Ambien is one of the most unpredictable substances you can get from a pharmacy, and it's prescribed freely. I would caution against it. Eszopiclone is the best of the bunch as far as we know -- low tolerance rates even up to six months (which was the length of the study), but relatively long elimination half-life. That means you can only safely take it when you have time for a full night's sleep or else you're going to be driving impaired in the morning.
I have to cop to being a Lunesta (eszopiclone) stan because of a neurological issue, and while it does have its downsides, it's relatively easy to manage -- no e-mails at night, take it based on the clock rather than my state, etc. The drugs are a little too young to know if long-term use fucks us, but I guess I'm offering myself as tribute.
Trazodone is a mixed bag. Some studies show it leading to earlier memory decline, some show it having cognitive protective effects. It is worth noting that it is used, at higher doses (~300 mg), as an anti-depressant. There is a strong YMMV component to peoples' reactions. (It can also, very rarely, lead to priapism that requires medical intervention.) It seems like it's one of the safest regular options, so if lowish doses help, god speed.
AlexDavis43
Member
I highly encourage everyone here to look into cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia (CBT-i).
An easy explainer from Mayo Clinic.
Sleep hygiene is good for long-lasting improvements in sleep quality. Good habits to get into as well, in general.
AlexDavis43
Member
Sex, my man. Sleep like a baby after good sex. Masturbation doesn't touch it.
Oof. Glad it works for you.
For me, trazodone puts me to sleep and I stay asleep, but about 85% of the time I wake up feeling like I've got a moderate hangover. Stuck with it for like a month and the side effects didn't subside, so I dropped it.
BamaCrazy
Banned
Sometimes lowering the dose helps. I can take 100mg and wake up feeling fine. But higher doses cause me to wake up feeling like you described.
Mrhairyman
Member
Trazadone + magnesium
Non-addicting / habit forming, and wake up with massive hard ons daily
Non-addicting / habit forming, and wake up with massive hard ons daily
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