Quad soreness

[cfreetenor]

preface yes I know soreness isn’t a direct proxy for growth but the complete absence of it is not productive and indicates somethings missing.

I’m dedicating a week or two to 90% leg and quad development. Squatting 1.5x weekly is just not cutting it. But my quads are never sore.

Leg presses, even with determined mind muscle connection with quads, leaves my low back and flutes far more sore than quads. Just moved the bar up on my squat for high bar, will see how that goes.

What’s the solution here? Very high rep leg extensions? Slower eccentric on presses and squats? (Nervous about this due to their already more pronounced effect in glutes and back) unilateral work? Ideas appreciated.

 

[Btcowboy]

What's a typical leg day for you look like? Sets, reps, weight, rest time?

Also are they sore during or immediately after?

Lots of variables and I am no expert.

 

[cfreetenor]

Typical.. 4x10 LBBS 185lbs twice weekly

I know I’m weak. I’m a high volume restaurant server so legs lag hard.

Now it’s
4x10-15 leg press 315-375lbs
HBBS 4x6-8 today 185lbs, can probably move up
3x weekly

I started with Rippetoe’s LP and got up to 295x5x3 in the back squat low bar, but fatigue was all systemic.

I feel a very general tenderness and warm responsiveness in my quads. The feeling is the same as other groups at the end of a warm up, and a fatigue that lasts maybe 30 seconds after standing.

I’m lead to believe volume is the issue, but I don’t want to throw out my back or have glutes totally take over once I actually get started accumulating some fatigue in the quads.

By comparison, I deadlifted 425x1 with straps last time I bothered to.

 

[cfreetenor]

Rest time is somewhere around 1-3 minutes, higher for the squats.

 

[Btcowboy]

Is this your own program or are you following a "cookie cutter" program which is fine as I do as well, just trying to see where your programming is coming from.

My doms is sometimes bad, noticable or not there at all. It kind depends for me. I do know if I skip a leg day the next one will hurt lol...

You could try training hams first get them warmed up and the blood flowing. I think you will find it helps your squats. Try adding more to your daily leg work. Here is an example of one of mine.

Seated leg curls 4x12 after a few warm up sets
Squats HB 3x6 work up in weight until you barely get 6 count the last 3 sets. Could be 6 plus sets here
Leg press 3x30 with 3 min rest as heavy as you can
Hack squat 1.5s 2x15
Then calves

Edit warm up sets not counted

 

[cfreetenor]

Preexhausting hams is an interesting idea, I could start with glute ham raises then go to leg press. From what you say it seems like I need some very high rep work. Which I think will do me best so I can make sure the work stays focused on the quads.

I just went with the lifts I knew I could get the best connection with my quads.

My worry with going very high volume like that is that the low back pump could absolutely kill me - just from the work today driving home in traffic it’s pulsating. But I’m willing to eat through it and just take the growth there too if it’s part of the process - I just figured my spinal erectors couldn’t be limiting my leg work if my deadlift and OHP outstrips my squat so much. What do you think of that? It is definitely muscle soreness.

I’ll try the seared extensions again with higher reps. Last time I got burned out (like a DOMS burn but during exercise) by 10s without much residual. But higher reps might be called for there.

Thanks for your help!

 

[Btcowboy]

If you read up on Renaissance Periodization on quads.
Minimum effective volume for quads is about 8 sets a week.
Maximum adaptive volume is 12 to 18 sets.

You would want to be in the 12-18 set range

Frequency 1.5 - 3 times a week
Varying intensity
Variation in movements
Superseted, drop sets, giant sets
ROM
Above are all things to consider.

 

[cfreetenor]

I’m familiar and have been listening a lot to Israetel on YouTube. My set ranges probably skew upward because of my job, and a lot of type 1 fibers resultant from it.

I am currently taking a tiny hiatus from upper body training to just hammer my legs, all I want now is quad soreness. I feel like once I find it, I’ll have a breakthrough.

The way things are going, I will definitely need to exceed 12 and probably 18 in order to feel something.in contrast, I have a posterior chain and back that I don’t have to do practically anything to grow.

 

[Btcowboy]

A couple questions

In your opinion on the days in the gym are you giving 110% with the right intensity and form/ROM?

Are you progressing from week to week, be it more weight, more reps, more sets?

 

[cfreetenor]

A couple questions

In your opinion on the days in the gym are you giving 110% with the right intensity and form/ROM?

Are you progressing from week to week, be it more weight, more reps, more sets?

No, but the issue is that 110% on leg movements for me looks like a lot of glute, low back, and abdominal actual while the legs kind of just get “pulled up.”

 

[cfreetenor]

My ROM is complete, always below parallel and a hair above ATG most of the time.

 

[Btcowboy]

Interesting, well as I mentioned I am not an expert but more than happy to help where I can. Hopefully some others with more experience will chime in and offer some advice.

Keep this thread updated.

 

[Test_Subject]

preface yes I know soreness isn’t a direct proxy for growth but the complete absence of it is not productive and indicates somethings missing.

I’m dedicating a week or two to 90% leg and quad development. Squatting 1.5x weekly is just not cutting it. But my quads are never sore.

Take about 50-60% of your max and do five sets of ten with a two second pause at the bottom of the squat.

If your quads aren't on fire after that, you're apparently Wolverine.

 

[cfreetenor]

Take about 50-60% of your max and do five sets of ten with a two second pause at the bottom of the squat.

If your quads aren't on fire after that, you're apparently Wolverine.

If my low bar max is 335-345 for 1 what weight should I go with for high bar? I’m assuming HB

 

[cfreetenor]

I’m figuring I’ll go to maintenance for all upper body work, something like

Decline bench 3x10 1x wk
Wide grip OHP 3x10 1x wk
Chin up 6x8BW 2x wk
Upright rows/EZ bar front raises 3x10 (alt 2x week)
Pull ups 4x6BW 1x wk

While I focus on quads primarily, calves secondary, and general waist down besides hams.

This might seem a little low but my chest and shoulders and especially back are all extremely training sensitive.

 

[Mayne]

Pause squats, cluster set hack squats, AMRAP leg press and eccentric leg raises would be my choice as I have the opposite of you and my quads are always on fire to a point I am unable to do full on workouts every now and again to which stretching would likely appear beneficial which may also help you if your are just a bit dysfunctional as a lot of the bodybuilders I know are too anyway

 

[cfreetenor]

Last few workouts left quads feeling stiffer than usual. There’s a sort of diffuse soreness, a shadow of DOMS. I’ll update tomorrow when I hit them again.

 

[cfreetenor]

I’m feeling an encouraging and persistent stiffness in my quads. Growth seems imminent based on this. This Hs been from a few sessions of

4x6 HB squat, actually went up in weight for the last two sets by 20lbs so the routine adaptation is encouraging. Also doing pauses when I feel the tension leaking out of the quads. If I feel it migrate I’ll stop at the bottom to really make sure the right stimulus is occurring but not all are paused.

4x15 leg press. I’m thinking a linear progression on weight for this scheme is going to be the primary mover in leg development. Never let pressed before.

 

[LeoTC]

Legs, by nature, are all about a high work capacity. Overall volume is what's going to drive growth. So shoot to work through multiple rep ranges and intensities.

FitNotes Workout - Sunday 15th September 2019
Total Volume: 26,740 lbs
Total Sets: 23
Total Reps: 215

** Barbell Squat **
- Total Volume: 12,840 lbs
- 145.0 lbs x 10 reps
- 195.0 lbs x 10 reps
- 235.0 lbs x 8 reps
- 285.0 lbs x 6 reps
- 325.0 lbs x 6 reps
- 325.0 lbs x 6 reps
- 325.0 lbs x 6 reps

** Landmine Hacksquat ** (Superset 1)
- Total Volume: 3,150 lbs
- 70.0 lbs x 15 reps
- 70.0 lbs x 15 reps
- 105.0 lbs x 10 reps

** Romanian Deadlift ** (Superset 1)
- Total Volume: 3,700 lbs
- 185.0 lbs x 6 reps
- 185.0 lbs x 6 reps
- 185.0 lbs x 8 reps

** Glute-Ham Raise ** (Superset 2)
- Total Volume: 0 lbs
- 8 reps
- 8 reps
- 8 reps
- 8 reps
- 8 reps
- 8 reps

** Leg Extension Machine ** (Superset 2)
- Total Volume: 7,050 lbs
- 100.0 lbs x 20 reps
- 130.0 lbs x 15 reps
- 155.0 lbs x 10 reps
- 155.0 lbs x 10 reps

FitNotes Workout - Sunday 8th September 2019
Total Volume: 36,790 lbs
Total Sets: 29
Total Reps: 251

** Barbell Squat **
- Total Volume: 10,890 lbs
- 145.0 lbs x 8 reps
- 195.0 lbs x 8 reps
- 235.0 lbs x 6 reps
- 285.0 lbs x 4 reps
- 325.0 lbs x 4 reps
- 360.0 lbs x 2 reps
- 360.0 lbs x 2 reps
- 360.0 lbs x 2 reps
- 360.0 lbs x 3 reps
- 360.0 lbs x 3 reps

** Landmine Hacksquat ** (Superset 1)
- Total Volume: 4,000 lbs
- 100.0 lbs x 10 reps
- 100.0 lbs x 10 reps
- 100.0 lbs x 10 reps
- 100.0 lbs x 10 reps

** Romanian Deadlift ** (Superset 1)
- Total Volume: 4,050 lbs
- 135.0 lbs x 10 reps
- 135.0 lbs x 10 reps
- 135.0 lbs x 10 reps

** Glute Kickback **
- Total Volume: 12,800 lbs
- 200.0 lbs x 12 reps
- 200.0 lbs x 12 reps
- 200.0 lbs x 10 reps
- 200.0 lbs x 10 reps
- 200.0 lbs x 10 reps
- 200.0 lbs x 10 reps

** Glute-Ham Raise **
- Total Volume: 0 lbs
- 10 reps
- 10 reps
- 10 reps

** Leg Extension Machine **
- Total Volume: 5,050 lbs
- 90.0 lbs x 20 reps
- 120.0 lbs x 15 reps
- 145.0 lbs x 10 reps

My last two leg days for example. I actually PR'd my Squat / Dead on Thursday / Friday, so cut the direct Glute work down. Right shoulder is also a bit fucked, or youd see FS/GM as the big superset. But overall volume is high.

Quads specifically, I've always seen massive growth with extensions in the 20-30 rep range. But balance, yo.

 

[cfreetenor]

Legs, by nature, are all about a high work capacity. Overall volume is what's going to drive growth. So shoot to work through multiple rep ranges and intensities.

FitNotes Workout - Sunday 15th September 2019
Total Volume: 26,740 lbs
Total Sets: 23
Total Reps: 215

** Barbell Squat **
- Total Volume: 12,840 lbs
- 145.0 lbs x 10 reps
- 195.0 lbs x 10 reps
- 235.0 lbs x 8 reps
- 285.0 lbs x 6 reps
- 325.0 lbs x 6 reps
- 325.0 lbs x 6 reps
- 325.0 lbs x 6 reps

** Landmine Hacksquat ** (Superset 1)
- Total Volume: 3,150 lbs
- 70.0 lbs x 15 reps
- 70.0 lbs x 15 reps
- 105.0 lbs x 10 reps

** Romanian Deadlift ** (Superset 1)
- Total Volume: 3,700 lbs
- 185.0 lbs x 6 reps
- 185.0 lbs x 6 reps
- 185.0 lbs x 8 reps

** Glute-Ham Raise ** (Superset 2)
- Total Volume: 0 lbs
- 8 reps
- 8 reps
- 8 reps
- 8 reps
- 8 reps
- 8 reps

** Leg Extension Machine ** (Superset 2)
- Total Volume: 7,050 lbs
- 100.0 lbs x 20 reps
- 130.0 lbs x 15 reps
- 155.0 lbs x 10 reps
- 155.0 lbs x 10 reps

FitNotes Workout - Sunday 8th September 2019
Total Volume: 36,790 lbs
Total Sets: 29
Total Reps: 251

** Barbell Squat **
- Total Volume: 10,890 lbs
- 145.0 lbs x 8 reps
- 195.0 lbs x 8 reps
- 235.0 lbs x 6 reps
- 285.0 lbs x 4 reps
- 325.0 lbs x 4 reps
- 360.0 lbs x 2 reps
- 360.0 lbs x 2 reps
- 360.0 lbs x 2 reps
- 360.0 lbs x 3 reps
- 360.0 lbs x 3 reps

** Landmine Hacksquat ** (Superset 1)
- Total Volume: 4,000 lbs
- 100.0 lbs x 10 reps
- 100.0 lbs x 10 reps
- 100.0 lbs x 10 reps
- 100.0 lbs x 10 reps

** Romanian Deadlift ** (Superset 1)
- Total Volume: 4,050 lbs
- 135.0 lbs x 10 reps
- 135.0 lbs x 10 reps
- 135.0 lbs x 10 reps

** Glute Kickback **
- Total Volume: 12,800 lbs
- 200.0 lbs x 12 reps
- 200.0 lbs x 12 reps
- 200.0 lbs x 10 reps
- 200.0 lbs x 10 reps
- 200.0 lbs x 10 reps
- 200.0 lbs x 10 reps

** Glute-Ham Raise **
- Total Volume: 0 lbs
- 10 reps
- 10 reps
- 10 reps

** Leg Extension Machine **
- Total Volume: 5,050 lbs
- 90.0 lbs x 20 reps
- 120.0 lbs x 15 reps
- 145.0 lbs x 10 reps

My last two leg days for example. I actually PR'd my Squat / Dead on Thursday / Friday, so cut the direct Glute work down. Right shoulder is also a bit fucked, or youd see FS/GM as the big superset. But overall volume is high.

Quads specifically, I've always seen massive growth with extensions in the 20-30 rep range. But balance, yo.

That’s pretty intense man. Honestly if I had a job that didn’t require me to be on my feet all day, I’d bring the volume up as much as I could.

My issue with the extensions at the moment is that I keep having tension leak into my hamstrings such that the overall effect is diminishing as I go through them. I figure I should just move the weight down and scale it up, should be easy gains.