Non-aromatising substitute for testosterone

[Werewolf Piss]

Why not try test prop daily or every other day?

 

[cousinmuscles]

Why not try test prop daily or every other day?

I disagree on this, I do test E daily. Test prop daily still gives wild swings up and down. Also, from a practical standpoint, test P will cause a lot of pain to handle on a perpetual basis.

 

[cousinmuscles]

Regarding the main question, I don't think 300mg per week is a dose for quality of life, nor is adding any other compound except for GH.

I think 20mg test E per day is plenty to feel good.

 

[Werewolf Piss]

I disagree on this, I do test E daily. Test prop daily still gives wild swings up and down. Also, from a practical standpoint, test P will cause a lot of pain to handle on a perpetual basis.

I do it, usually with mast P. No estrogen effects until I dont use Mast P, which I do have to cut out once in awhile.

 

[Duke309]

Nah. Does it make any difference? I was under the impression that the sensitive one was merely more accurate to within a smaller margin. Meaning its purpose is primarily for diagnosing low and not high estradiol.

Standard test is not accurate at all for the low E2 levels found in men. You must use the sensitive test with LC/MS (which sucks because the turn around time is now ~12 days)

Estradiol Testing in Men

myadlm.org

 

[xrayphoton13]

Also how long have you been using Test?

I found it in the first and second year that even on 200-300mg/week when I was cruising, I had many issues including estrogen out of whack

Later on as more time passed by I needed less and less anastrozole to the point regardless of the dosage or the ester, I don't need much now.

So my theory is that body adapts over time and finds that balance that it seeks. It just gets used to synthetic Testosterone and AI and starts regulating something. Of course if it's been years for you using T and still not resolving then it's different story.

At least for me it happened to be the case. I remember I needed quite a lot of AI at first. Things changed on my 3rd or so year of this journey. I actually forgot I had issues too before since it was quite a lomg time ago now.

I found something similar happened with my body as well. The same with nandrolone. Used to be just 50mg would set my nipples on fire the next day. Now I have no issues adding in nandrolone.

 

[Mrhairyman]

I have had enough of fighting aromatisation. Any dose of testosterone I take requires a big dose of an aromatase inhibitor. And my e2 fluctuates so massively between blood tests that I have no idea where my e2 actually is.

300mg of TE per week with 3.5mg of anastrozole per week puts my e2 at somewhere between 20 and 130pg/ml, depending on the day. All variables are controlled as best as possible before testing.

I feel my best at around 220mg TE per week, but with my e2 fluctuating so much, I can’t tell if any symptoms are due to high or low e2.

I am considering lowering my testosterone to the point where an AI isn’t needed. But I then lose the therapeutic effect of the testosterone.

For quality of life purposes, which compound is the best non-aromatising substitute for testosterone?

I feel your pain big dawg, I am in the exact same boat

 

[HUGE McBIGLARGE]

Regarding the main question, I don't think 300mg per week is a dose for quality of life, nor is adding any other compound except for GH.

I think 20mg test E per day is plenty to feel good.

My feels begin to plateau at the low 200s per week. I’ve tried less many times and feel shit. I suspect I’ve got a poor androgen sensitivity. Primarily due to having a 2D:4D ratio which is more feminine than any woman’s I’ve ever seen. I am IVF, so it might have something to do with that. Perhaps I have other aetiologies for my symptoms and supraphysiological testosterone merely compensates enough to mask those symptoms.

Standard test is not accurate at all for the low E2 levels found in men. You must use the sensitive test with LC/MS (which sucks because the turn around time is now ~12 days)

I do begin to treat my results as somewhat inaccurate when they get within the male range. But when I get results like 70pg/ml, I can’t consider that “levels found in men”.

I ideally want my e2 at the upper end of the male range, and then titrate my e2 up or down based on feels. So once my e2 is low for a woman, I’m now in business and I can start fine tuning my dosages. I just can’t get to that stage when my e2 looks like random number generation.

 

[cousinmuscles]

My feels begin to plateau at the low 200s per week. I’ve tried less many times and feel shit. I suspect I’ve got a poor androgen sensitivity. Primarily due to having a 2D:4D ratio which is more feminine than any woman’s I’ve ever seen. I am IVF, so it might have something to do with that. Perhaps I have other aetiologies for my symptoms and supraphysiological testosterone merely compensates enough to mask those symptoms.


I do begin to treat my results as somewhat inaccurate when they get within the male range. But when I get results like 70pg/ml, I can’t consider that “levels found in men”.

I ideally want my e2 at the upper end of the male range, and then titrate my e2 up or down based on feels. So once my e2 is low for a woman, I’m now in business and I can start fine tuning my dosages. I just can’t get to that stage when my e2 looks like random number generation.

Regarding finger length, how do you deduce impacts of hormones from that metric? By being IVF, do you mean you were conceived through IVF? And what are the consequences of that in regards to hormones?

Many times people blast androgens for very long and when they go to normal levels they feel like crap. It takes time for your body to adjust again. I personally would drop to 20mg per day and just feel crappy for a while until I can feel good with that dose. Another option would be to stay at 30mg per day for a longer time, then 25mg for a long time, then 20mg, to let your body adjust slowly without having to feel crap. If not, 30mg test is not really toxic, and as long as you manage your health and do regular blood work, IMO any issues that can arise you will be able to foresee and manage.

If you don't want E2 results to be a random number generation then you'll need the sensitive test. Try and find a lab that does it cheaper. I am stuck with $150+ for this test because the university hospital is the only one doing it. I have seen google results of US labs doing it for $85.

Worth pointing out that other lifestyle factors can help, like choosing the correct carbs, sleep hygiene, hydration + salt.

 

[thebiggestmofo]

I have had enough of fighting aromatisation. Any dose of testosterone I take requires a big dose of an aromatase inhibitor. And my e2 fluctuates so massively between blood tests that I have no idea where my e2 actually is.

300mg of TE per week with 3.5mg of anastrozole per week puts my e2 at somewhere between 20 and 130pg/ml, depending on the day. All variables are controlled as best as possible before testing.

I feel my best at around 220mg TE per week, but with my e2 fluctuating so much, I can’t tell if any symptoms are due to high or low e2.

I am considering lowering my testosterone to the point where an AI isn’t needed. But I then lose the therapeutic effect of the testosterone.

For quality of life purposes, which compound is the best non-aromatising substitute for testosterone?

What's your bodyfat in first place? Pretty much

 

[Duke309]

Regarding finger length, how do you deduce impacts of hormones from that metric? By being IVF, do you mean you were conceived through IVF? And what are the consequences of that in regards to hormones?

Many times people blast androgens for very long and when they go to normal levels they feel like crap. It takes time for your body to adjust again. I personally would drop to 20mg per day and just feel crappy for a while until I can feel good with that dose. Another option would be to stay at 30mg per day for a longer time, then 25mg for a long time, then 20mg, to let your body adjust slowly without having to feel crap. If not, 30mg test is not really toxic, and as long as you manage your health and do regular blood work, IMO any issues that can arise you will be able to foresee and manage.

If you don't want E2 results to be a random number generation then you'll need the sensitive test. Try and find a lab that does it cheaper. I am stuck with $150+ for this test because the university hospital is the only one doing it. I have seen google results of US labs doing it for $85.

Worth pointing out that other lifestyle factors can help, like choosing the correct carbs, sleep hygiene, hydration + salt.

Ulta blood tests has it through quest for ~35 bucks.

 

[HUGE McBIGLARGE]

Regarding finger length, how do you deduce impacts of hormones from that metric?

index and ring finger ratios have a correlation with pre-natal androgenicity. My index finger is nearly as long as my middle finger. Which suggests either low androgens pre-natal, or poor androgen sensitivity.

By being IVF, do you mean you were conceived through IVF? And what are the consequences of that in regards to hormones?

Yeah. Conceived through IVF. I’m unsure of the consequences of being IVF on my hormones, but IVF has a slightly higher risk of birth defects, and all the drugs my mum took to have me may have had an effect. My mum took something like 15000ius of HCG per week.

Not that it matters, of course. What’s done is done. But it’s an interesting explanation.

Many times people blast androgens for very long and when they go to normal levels they feel like crap.

I titrated up until I felt symptom resolution. There are other cofactors, of course; and I’ve never titrated down for long. So maybe titrating down and staying down will work. I’ll consider it in future. Thanks. How long would you reckon it’d take before feeling better at a lower dose?

If you don't want E2 results to be a random number generation then you'll need the sensitive test.

Would a non-sensitive test really be inaccurate at woman-levels of estradiol? Unfortunately I can’t find anywhere in the UK that does the sensitive tests. At least, not without going through actual private doctor appointments, which would set me back a few grand for a few tests.

What's your bodyfat in first place? Pretty much

Based on eyeballing it, I’d say 15%

 

[Liter O' Test]

I've had testing done that was fake/not calibrated, not sure if this would happen in the UK though.

maybe just lower your test a bit and have primo/mast make up for the androgencity but i think the hcg is causing your problems

 

[lukiss96]

I don't like hcg at all, it makes me feel weird and I would only use it if I ever find out I'm not fertile and absolutely need to use it for some time. Other than that it wasn't good experience at all, so I have abandoned it and feel much better.

Actually, I forgot that I even attempted to stay on hcg it was 5 years ago and I don't miss it at all.

 

[Ateam2023]

adding hcg even to my trt+ program really jacks my e2 fast and i found it hard to control as well, being in my 50's i just said screw it on the hcg,,

 

[thebiggestmofo]

I was a heavy aromatizer in the past and I was over 10% bf... (aromatase is found on fat tissue mainly, and as far I know the long estered compound can have bigger chances to interact with fat, since esters are liposoluble... it makes sense)..

Now I found my sweet spot with 135mg rest prop weekly and 180mg primo enanth... in that ratio... I started at 1:1 and then increased primo enough to not crash e2..

I don't need exemestane or anastrozole anymore...

Boldenone converts mainly in estrone, I had it checked with bloods..

Primobolan acts an AI too, and I prefer it over masteron since I m prioritizing facial skin..

Hope that helps

 

[cousinmuscles]

index and ring finger ratios have a correlation with pre-natal androgenicity. My index finger is nearly as long as my middle finger. Which suggests either low androgens pre-natal, or poor androgen sensitivity.


Yeah. Conceived through IVF. I’m unsure of the consequences of being IVF on my hormones, but IVF has a slightly higher risk of birth defects, and all the drugs my mum took to have me may have had an effect. My mum took something like 15000ius of HCG per week.

Not that it matters, of course. What’s done is done. But it’s an interesting explanation.


I titrated up until I felt symptom resolution. There are other cofactors, of course; and I’ve never titrated down for long. So maybe titrating down and staying down will work. I’ll consider it in future. Thanks. How long would you reckon it’d take before feeling better at a lower dose?

Would a non-sensitive test really be inaccurate at woman-levels of estradiol? Unfortunately I can’t find anywhere in the UK that does the sensitive tests. At least, not without going through actual private doctor appointments, which would set me back a few grand for a few tests.


Based on eyeballing it, I’d say 15%

I don't know and of course everyone is different, but in this context I meant when someone has been blasting test with tren and maybe something else, drops to 150mg, me and all my friends told me they felt low for a couple of weeks, but that is an enormous change. At 5mg changes down per day I would guess you wouldn't feel a difference.

Regarding the non sensitive test, I don't have that many tests done myself, I do know that the non sensitive test captures other drugs and counts them as estradiol, and the variance is greater than usual even though all blood markers vary when you test them (nothing is 100% accurate, they've told me this countless times at the lab). If it would cost that much for me I wouldn't bother, just go through trial and error and find what feels best.

 

[HUGE McBIGLARGE]

Thanks for all the replies so far, guys.

I appreciate all the feedback. I’ve now got a few ideas I can play around with and see how I get on. Thanks again. Dunno what I’d do without this place.

 

[AlexDavis43]

Regarding the main question, I don't think 300mg per week is a dose for quality of life, nor is adding any other compound except for GH.

I think 20mg test E per day is plenty to feel good.

Read the room dude

Ofc people are using testosterone to feel good but for the most part looking for muscle gainz in the least harmful way

Bodybuilding, recreational or otherwise

 

[cousinmuscles]

Read the room dude

Ofc people are using testosterone to feel good but for the most part looking for muscle gainz in the least harmful way

Bodybuilding, recreational or otherwise

Let me help you read what the OP was asking to begin with:

For quality of life purposes, which compound is the best non-aromatising substitute for testosterone?

I stand by starting with 20mg TE daily for quality of life. Some use primo, some use masteron, personally I would only use those temporarily, not as a long term solution.