MESO "Specialized" Testing Group Fund

[AlexDavis43]

I have a few vials of the famous 40 IU QSC batch if there is interest. Happy to donate and ship.

@readalot what is the price per sample?

I mean if people are willing to do both, donate AND ship a sample for analysis, how much would their donation contribute to the additional costs?

Also, is anyone making an effort to find someone to do bioactivity? (results would be more relevant and easier to interpret than NMR and CD)

 

[accidentaljedi173]

I learned about this in basic high school science class. I wrote a quick summary of what I know about it. No biggie


Circular Dichroism (CD) and Nuclear Magnetic Resonance (NMR) are both useful for studying peptides, but they serve different purposes:

- CD is great for quickly checking the overall shape and folding of peptides. It tells you about the general structure, like whether the peptide is mostly in an alpha-helix or beta-sheet form. It's fast and requires less sample.

- NMR provides detailed, specific information about each part of the peptide. It can show you the exact 3D structure and how different parts of the peptide move. However, it takes more time and requires more sample material.

In summary, use CD for a quick overview of the peptide's structure and NMR for detailed, in-depth analysis. Often, using both methods together gives the best understanding of a peptide's properties.


Ask a follow up question: explain it like you are talking to an 8 year old

Imagine you have a toy made of building blocks, and you want to know how it's put together.

- CD is like looking at the toy from far away. You can see the overall shape, like if it looks like a car or a house, but you can't see the small details.

- NMR is like getting really close to the toy and seeing each block and how they fit together. You can see all the tiny details, but it takes more time to look at everything closely.

So, if you want to know the big picture quickly, use CD. If you want to see every little part, use NMR. Sometimes, it's best to use both to understand the toy completely!

"Put this in language Forrest Gump could understand"

Sure thing!

Imagine you have a box of chocolates, and you want to know what's inside each one.

- CD is like looking at the whole box from the outside. You can tell if it's a big box or a small box, but you can't see what's inside each chocolate.

- NMR is like opening each chocolate to see what's inside. You can find out if there's caramel, nuts, or something else, but it takes more time to check each one.

So, if you just want to know the size of the box, use CD. If you want to know what's inside each chocolate, use NMR. Sometimes, it's good to do both to really understand your box of chocolates!

If you want me to actually understand that, I'll need it explained like its from woody from toy story explaining it to buzz

 

[Sicsemptyran]

If we do NMR and none of us can drag our knuckles in a way that shows anything to glean from it, I can almost certainly get someone who can and would enjoy to do so.

Interact daily with scientists who live in this stuff everyday, probably even have physical access to some labs that could do this work through my company. Unfortunately I have zero clue how to do anything beyond go “that looks expensive” and get myself on the lawsuit of the century.

 

[JuiceStick]

Since QSC is no longer there, is there much value in testing it since we cannot buy from QSC anymore?

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Since QSC is no longer there, is there much value in testing it since we cannot buy from QSC anymore?

It's for data collection

 

[Kralteramon]

It would be nice to compare some of the known brands on this board, like a vial of lobster, SSA and serostim.

I’d be interested in seeing total protein content in the vial too, (every test post-0.22 filtration) and comparing that to the hgh content (if that’s not what jano’s percentage score is).

I have no spare money right now unfortunately so take my suggestions with a pinch of salt.

I got lobster and ssa hgh that i'm willing to donate.

 

[readalot]

@readalot what is the price per sample?

500 USD per sample to run both CD and NMR

I mean if people are willing to do both, donate AND ship a sample for analysis, how much would their donation contribute to the additional costs?

Also, is anyone making an effort to find someone to do bioactivity? (results would be more relevant and easier to interpret than NMR and CD)

I will be out for a few days. I have not yet.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

I win

 

[readalot]

I win

You were correct.

 

[BamaCrazy]

Just don’t let funding be the deciding factor. Even if we receive test results no one can interpret now, it’s possible we might locate someone who can later. The funding will be there. I’m 100% certain.

 

[readalot]

Just don’t let funding be the deciding factor. Even if we receive test results no one can interpret now, it’s possible we might locate someone who can later. The funding will be there. I’m 100% certain.

The funding isn't an issue at all. Just giving Spaceman his props. I am honestly shocked and can admit I was wrong. Spaceman was right.

Appreciate your comments and input.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

The funding isn't an issue at all. Just giving Spaceman his props. I am honestly shocked and can admit I was wrong. Spaceman was right.

Appreciate your comments and input.

This is fine for data collection. I don't think that this can be a regular test that we do all the time, but it's definitely something fun.

 

[readalot]

This is fine for data collection. I don't think that this can be a regular test that we do all the time, but it's definitely something fun.

My comment was referencing one of the most prolific posters on the extended GH testing refusing to comment in this thread or offer to chip in.

I did receive an education.

Thanks for your thoughts on the testing.

 

[bananafeet]

Wouldn't it be easier to test the immunogenicity of UGL HGH directly in human subjects?

This could be done by testing for neutralising and non neutralising anti bodies.

It could be part of a harm reduction strategy for people using rHGH as part of their HRT.

Whether or not the molecule is folded or not really doesn't matter if it's:
1. Creating an igf1 response
2. Not creating neutralising antibodies
3. Not causing side reactions or systemic immune responses

That's my understanding of it at least.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Wouldn't it be easier to test the immunogenicity of UGL HGH directly in human subjects?

This could be done by testing for neutralising and non neutralising anti bodies.

It could be part of a harm reduction strategy for people using rHGH as part of their HRT.

Whether or not the molecule is folded or not really doesn't matter if it's:
1. Creating an igf1 response
2. Not creating neutralising antibodies
3. Not causing side reactions or systemic immune responses

That's my understanding of it at least.

Some fucking dickwad(who went silent) here kept talking about NMR studies, we decided to look at it. He won't dare come in here

1. IGF1 response may be a better to see what is actually active.
2. if immunogenicity was happening it may not be seen so sudden, it may be far down the road.
3. What side reactions?

 

[bananafeet]

Some fucking dickwad(who went silent) here kept talking about NMR studies, we decided to look at it. He won't dare come in here

1. IGF1 response may be a better to see what is actually active.
2. if immunogenicity was happening it may not be seen so sudden, it may be far down the road.
3. What side reactions?

Sorry mate damn auto correct.

"Site reactions"

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Sorry mate damn auto correct.

"Site reactions"

there could be so many other reactions such as site reactions that may not be related to the raw material of a product but some of the other ingredients(Crappy BAC water)

 

[bananafeet]

there could be so many other reactions such as site reactions that may not be related to the raw material of a product but some of the other ingredients(Crappy BAC water)

Yes but my comment was specific to site reactions caused by HGH not the bac water used or the BA it contains.

I've read the clinical dosing guidelines from the endocrinologist society and there is no mention of immunogenicity testing.

Unless there is a sub standard response in terms of IGF1 levels they wouldn't bother testing for immunogenicity unless there was a site or systemic immune response and BA was eliminated as the cause.

So my point is from a practical perspective the aggregates and the immune response they cause will generally be a site response and in rare cases a systemic reaction.

If the HGH molecule is misfolded it won't trigger an increase in IGF1.

That's why I recommended testing for non neutralising and neutralising antibodies. Unless I'm missing something that in combination with purity and contaminate testing should be sufficient...

 

[bananafeet]

Furthermore the main cause of aggregation that I can find is the AWI - air water interface.

So that comes down to reducing headspace in the vials and using a gentle reconstitution technique and maybe filtration after reconstitution.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Yes but my comment was specific to site reactions caused by HGH not the bac water used or the BA it contains.

I've read the clinical dosing guidelines from the endocrinologist society and there is no mention of immunogenicity testing.

Unless there is a sub standard response in terms of IGF1 levels they wouldn't bother testing for immunogenicity unless there was a site or systemic immune response and BA was eliminated as the cause.

So my point is from a practical perspective the aggregates and the immune response they cause will generally be a site response and in rare cases a systemic reaction.

If the HGH molecule is misfolded it won't trigger an increase in IGF1.

That's why I recommended testing for non neutralising and neutralising antibodies. Unless I'm missing something that in combination with purity and contaminate testing should be sufficient...

My point is there are more ingredients to HGH other than benzyl, water, and raw hgh(you forget the excipients)

I agree with this bioactivity measurement on igf1.

This obsession over "folding". It's unpractical. Granted the person who keeps mentioning it hasn't ever even posted an igf1.

I would expect some type of contamination could be in the vial that could cause a site reaction.


Unsure of how many people here even see such a thing