Kurt Havens : Test Cypionate vs Enanthate Case Report

[SmallTitsIRL]

Kurt Havens has finally share his case report on Test C vs Test E.
It looks more like a Test C + Primo vs Test E + Primo case report and looking at peak serum level rather what it looks like throughout the cycle.

Things I consider important, it wasn't controlled, so the subject could be injecting more or less of each compound. As I understood it was only one subject, so there is no individual variability taken to account.
Injection was done SubQ, I believe most of us do IM.

 

[trtchin]

What a weird approach. Why run Primo at the same time.

 

[SmallTitsIRL]

"Methenolone (Primobolan) was held constant during both phases to mitigate aromatization and support anabolic stability."

Which to me is ridiculous, the best way to mitigate aromatization is to use an aromatase inhibitor, which like the name indicates..
What I don't understand aswell is the 'support anabolic stability' claim.
ChatGPT says it's there to maintain a stable DHT derivative, but Primobolan dase increases aswell with Testosterone

 

[trtchin]

"Methenolone (Primobolan) was held constant during both phases to mitigate aromatization and support anabolic stability."

Which to me is ridiculous, the best way to mitigate aromatization is to use an aromatase inhibitor, which like the name indicates..
What I don't understand aswell is the 'support anabolic stability' claim.
ChatGPT says it's there to maintain a stable DHT derivative, but Primobolan dase increases aswell with Testosterone

I think basically Kurt ran the test on himself and we know he loves primo so he couldn't give up his TRT+

 

[SmallTitsIRL]

I think basically Kurt ran the test on himself and we know he loves primo so he couldn't give up his TRT+

It does mention an healthy middled aged man. I highly doubt it's Kurt but rather one of his clients or his co-researcher.

If it was Kurt he would've done Test Tren Anadrol. Hopefully he does some sort of podcast/interview answering questions regarding this study. From what I saw on his instagram he wasn't being very helpful

 

[IndividualMan]

Primo muddies the data. sad.
although you could argue that dosages being the same means that conditions are similar.

Cyp versus E at 600 seems about the same, (at least for free T, the stuff that matters) accounting for ester weight. E2 differences are interesting.

Also, back when he talked about this he painted it as a larger study he designed, not a n=1 case study.
Would be nice to see a larger sample.

"Methenolone (Primobolan) was held constant during both phases to mitigate aromatization and support anabolic stability."

Which to me is ridiculous, the best way to mitigate aromatization is to use an aromatase inhibitor, which like the name indicates..
What I don't understand aswell is the 'support anabolic stability' claim.
ChatGPT says it's there to maintain a stable DHT derivative, but Primobolan dase increases aswell with Testosterone

perfectly fine for a scientific case study. it can technically be used ro mitigate E2 conversion. They cant tell the individual (even if it is kurt havens himself) to run a specific compound, due to research ethics. Genuinely cant tell them (subjects) shit in regards to what to take otherwise any ethics committee worth their salt is gonna tell you to remove yourself and never do any research again. They are strict asf with that stuff.

The "support anabolic stability" is just a phrase to acknowledge that it does have anabolic properties, so noone can "um ackchually" them.

Also, the paragraph talking about the elevated E2 is faulty. either that or the ?Spreadsheet? idk how to say it (the table containing the data) is wrong as 12.4 pg/ml E2 is definitely NOT elevated. the only E2 value that could be elevated under VERY strict reference ranges would be the 200mgTestE 100mg primo one.
pretty grave mistake imo. not a good look.

I would also love to get more infos about this. Hopefully he talks about it at length in some video in the future, or maybe takes some talking time from steve in the next roundtable thingy to explain the design, clarify if any mistakes were made (table contents regarding E2), and if a larger sample is in the works.

 

[SmallTitsIRL]

Primo muddies the data. sad.
although you could argue that dosages being the same means that conditions are similar.

Cyp versus E at 600 seems about the same, (at least for free T, the stuff that matters) accounting for ester weight. E2 differences are interesting.

Also, back when he talked about this he painted it as a larger study he designed, not a n=1 case study.
Would be nice to see a larger sample.


perfectly fine for a scientific case study. it can technically be used ro mitigate E2 conversion. They cant tell the individual (even if it is kurt havens himself) to run a specific compound, due to research ethics. Genuinely cant tell them (subjects) shit in regards to what to take otherwise any ethics committee worth their salt is gonna tell you to remove yourself and never do any research again. They are strict asf with that stuff.

The "support anabolic stability" is just a phrase to acknowledge that it does have anabolic properties, so noone can "um ackchually" them.

Also, the paragraph talking about the elevated E2 is faulty. either that or the ?Spreadsheet? idk how to say it (the table containing the data) is wrong as 12.4 pg/ml E2 is definitely NOT elevated. the only E2 value that could be elevated under VERY strict reference ranges would be the 200mgTestE 100mg primo one.
pretty grave mistake imo. not a good look.

I would also love to get more infos about this. Hopefully he talks about it at length in some video in the future, or maybe takes some talking time from steve in the next roundtable thingy to explain the design, clarify if any mistakes were made (table contents regarding E2), and if a larger sample is in the works.

Totally agree with you there.

Also, carrier oils and solvents are not mentioned. One could even argue Test E was overdosed. Or that it was 2 different batches of Primobolan. There's too much unexplained, that like you said due to ethics may never be answered

 

[IndividualMan]

Totally agree with you there.

Also, carrier oils and solvents are not mentioned. One could even argue Test E was overdosed. Or that it was 2 different batches of Primobolan. There's too much unexplained, that like you said due to ethics may never be answered

yeah, was talking to someone at my med Uni a year ago about doing a similar study.
He said you would have do quantitative testing on each VIAL of gear, otherwise its open to very easy critique and not really a valuable building block for further research.
There are also big ethical concerns.

 

[pipo]

 

[vapor77]

So in the world of hormones we know how much variability there is user to user and he chose to run this study with 1 subject and then went on all these podcasts and shit to talk about how cypionate is a useless ester.

 

[SmallTitsIRL]

So in the world of hormones we know how much variability there is user to user and he chose to run this study with 1 subject and then went on all these podcasts and shit to talk about how cypionate is a useless ester.

And we are assuming gear was tested and properly dosed throughout the case report.
One could even argue it's a case report of the interaction between Primobolan and the different Testosterone esters

 

[trtchin]

And we are assuming gear was tested and properly dosed throughout the case report.
One could even argue it's a case report of the interaction between Primobolan and the different Testosterone esters

Kurt Havens - Im a Dr and Test C is a trash ester, I'll prove it...

The study - actual trash

 

[pipo]

They do and claim whatever makes them look smart. This is one example. Another is dbol doesn't build muscle, just causes water retention or whatever BS.

Whatever it takes for views and money.

 

[IndividualMan]

The study - actual trash

not actual trash, but definitely not all that he hyped it up to be.
I would have expected it to hold much more scientific value than it did, for sure. A longer discussion of results would also have been nice, but it wasnt warranted due to he n=1 sample.

But it is a (albeit weak) datapoint.

 

[trtchin]

not actual trash, but definitely not all that he hyped it up to be.
I would have expected it to hold much more scientific value than it did, for sure. A longer discussion of results would also have been nice, but it wasnt warranted due to he n=1 sample.

But it is a (albeit weak) datapoint.

It seems like a big miss to me.

Its the same as any one person coming in meso and giving their blood test results on C and then on E.

How hard would it have been to:

- get 5 to 10 males of varying ages from mid 20s to mid 50s.
- test all compounds w Jano prior to use
- Run just test C 200 then 600 and just test E 200 then 600 with no other compounds

Profit?

 

[IndividualMan]

They do and claim whatever makes them look smart. This is one example. Another is dbol doesn't build muscle, just causes water retention or whatever BS.

Whatever it takes for views and money.

Dbol doesnt build actual tissue though (by itself). I dont believe most orals are capable of putting meaningful aounts of tissue on your frame, except MAYBE Adrol/Sdrol, and thats a big maybe.
This can be due to exposure time, metabolism, androgen receptor activity, or other reasons/ a combination of al these reasons.

The only argument I could see being valid is the additional machanical tension you can create by adding in an oral like Dbol. Harder sets with more tension = more gains.
but its not like test or nandrolone or other AAS that actually stop muscle wasting, or even help people gain small amounts of muscle with the stimulus they get from living their day to day life.

It seems like a big miss to me.

Its the same as any one person coming in meso and giving their blood test results on C and then on E.

How hard would it have been to:

- get 5 to 10 males of varying ages from mid 20s to mid 50s.
- test all compounds w Jano prior to use
- Run just test C 200 then 600 and just test E 200 then 600 with no other compounds

Profit?

definitely a big miss. the design you just put up is a lot more valuable than the one published by Dr. Kurt Havens.
I really hope he is currently trying to publish/working on follow-ups with larger sample sizes.

 

[SmallTitsIRL]

It seems like a big miss to me.

Its the same as any one person coming in meso and giving their blood test results on C and then on E.

How hard would it have been to:

- get 5 to 10 males of varying ages from mid 20s to mid 50s.
- test all compounds w Jano prior to use
- Run just test C 200 then 600 and just test E 200 then 600 with no other compounds

Profit?

I mean he is known enough to be able to do that. He could have just posted a link in his instagram story and 100s of people would be open to it.

But like @IndividualMan said it comes down to ethics.

 

[IndividualMan]

Ethics committees can be nasty when it comes to illegal/potentially harmful substances.

One way you could play it though is:

These people have all planned to use 1G+ for their next cycle. by partaking in this study, we required them to use lower dosages (200-600mg of AAS which underwent quantitative analysis), thus decreasing their potential health risks.

This plus a softer/nicer ethics committee could get you approved.

 

[pipo]

Dbol doesnt build actual tissue though (by itself). I dont believe most orals are capable of putting meaningful aounts of tissue on your frame, except MAYBE Adrol/Sdrol, and thats a big maybe.
This can be due to exposure time, metabolism, androgen receptor activity, or other reasons/ a combination of al these reasons.

The only argument I could see being valid is the additional machanical tension you can create by adding in an oral like Dbol. Harder sets with more tension = more gains.
but its not like test or nandrolone or other AAS that actually stop muscle wasting, or even help people gain small amounts of muscle with the stimulus they get from living their day to day life.


definitely a big miss. the design you just put up is a lot more valuable than the one published by Dr. Kurt Havens.
I really hope he is currently trying to publish/working on follow-ups with larger sample sizes.

I did a Dbol-only cycle several times, and I ended up several kilograms heavier and stronger after I stopped. And wasn't all those kg fat
And I'm not the only one who did that and got the same results.
Dbol builds muscle, but that shouldn't be breaking news.

40-50 years ago, it was believed that testosterone didn't build muscle, but that is also BS. There was some kind of medical report. I'll try to find it, as I came across it a few years ago.

 

[BigDadd7]

Completely worthless n=1 study with no controls.