Is the reverse true?

[Deleted member 123722]

We all know we will see the same amount of fat loss, whether we do a high-carb or low-carb fat-loss diet, so long as we are in a deficit and protein is equated.

Is the opposite true for a bulk?

In other words, if we are in a 1000-calorie surplus, does it really matter if we do a "clean bulk" or a "dirty bulk," if all protein requirements are met and calories are equated? Will one diet lead to more fat than the other?

Logically, both scenarios should be the same; I don't see how it would be they would be different.

 

[jJjburton]

We all know we will see the same amount of fat loss, whether we do a high-carb or low-carb fat-loss diet, so long as we are in a deficit and protein is equated.

Is the opposite true for a bulk?

In other words, if we are in a 1000-calorie surplus, does it really matter if we do a "clean bulk" or a "dirty bulk," if all protein requirements are met and calories are equated? Will one diet lead to more fat than the other?

Logically, both scenarios should be the same; I don't see how it would be they would be different.

Yes same, just when eating clean when dieting you have more food in a way. Chicken rice vs chips and donuts and shakes

 

[Deleted member 123722]

Yes same, just when eating clean when dieting you have more food in a way. Chicken rice vs chips and donuts and shakes

So just to clarify, you're agreeing with me that it doesn't matter whether we clean or dirty bulk, we are inevitably going to get a little fluffy, and there will be no difference in fat gain in either route, if protein requirements are met and calories are equated?

 

[jJjburton]

So just to clarify, you're agreeing with me that it doesn't matter whether we clean or dirty bulk, we are inevitably going to get a little fluffy, and there will be no difference in fat gain in either route, if protein requirements are met and calories are equated?

Yes protein is protein, carbs are carbs, fats are fats. But the amount of salts can change so more water retention etc

 

[theotherguy]

I have to disagree with all of this. I’m not a nutritionist or dietician, but I have learned quite a lot on my own.

Not all calories are created equal, and different types of foods cause different hormonal responses in the body.

I’m sure I’m gonna botch the details here and someone will have to come behind and correct me. But there’s something that happens with hormonal signaling when you eat certain types fats along with high density carbs that causes your body to actually store the energy as fat instead of burning it. A good example of this is eating donuts (high fat and carb content).

So no, not all calories are created equal. Eating whole food is much better for body composition and performance than IIFYM.

 

[Deleted member 123722]

I have to disagree with all of this. I’m not a nutritionist or dietician, but I have learned quite a lot on my own.

Not all calories are created equal, and different types of foods cause different hormonal responses in the body.

I’m sure I’m gonna botch the details here and someone will have to come behind and correct me. But there’s something that happens with hormonal signaling when you eat certain types fats along with high density carbs that causes your body to actually store the energy as fat instead of burning it. A good example of this is eating donuts (high fat and carb content).

So no, not all calories are created equal. Eating whole food is much better for body composition and performance than IIFYM.

Right. We all agree they are not created equally, but if a surplus is a surplus, and protein/carbs are utilized to their max, where else will the rest of surplus go? It must be stored as fat.

 

[Type-IIx]

Well, high saturated fat/low quality carbohydrate (especially refined) & low fiber diets worsen insulin sensitivity.

So it's not a simple matter of IIFYM in terms of partitioning in an energy surplus.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

The issue is in delineation between lbm and total mass gained.

There have been some pretty decent examples I’ve seen that people would appreciate if I was willing to divulge some info on fellow competitors that would show AT BEST the dirty approach leads to more fat gain per lb gained and in actual practice blunts the potential lbm gain via insulin resistance.

It is near impossible to “dirty bulk” on “clean bulk” macros, nevermind appropriate splits inside of macro categories for fats and carbs. Dirty diets skyrocket processed fats (oils) and carb/sugar intake.

Guys who eat dirty or have dirty meals 5x a week etc consistently get fatter in the offseason, have less muscle to show on stage, and come in with worse conditioning

 

[lukiss96]

Does it all matter that much to the non competitor though? Just simple way of thinking, eat as healthy as it's possible for you. Junk food on occasion. Follow the 80/20% rule most of the time and you're good. I understand people like Mac need to to be more accurate and careful with their diets than us gym rats. I prefer to live simpler lifestyle, I usually maintain this body fat % year round.

 

[Type-IIx]

Does it all matter that much to the non competitor though? Just simple way of thinking, eat as healthy as it's possible for you. Junk food on occasion. Follow the 80/20% rule most of the time and you're good. I understand people like Mac need to to be more accurate and careful with their diets than us gym rats. I prefer to live simpler lifestyle, I usually maintain this body fat % year round.

I sense some Devil's Advocacy here. I think that reducing saturated fat, low quality carbohydrate (typified by refined sources), and increasing fibre intakes are important for wellness and body composition for someone > 12% b.f., and at all b.f. %s for competitive aesthetes and those who derive an income from their physique.

It matters less than keeping b.f.% < 12% (men) for insulin sensitivity. Once you're sub-12%, you have more leeway (IIFYM will serve you just fine so long as you're say > 80% of the time time committing to preferring those nutrient intakes).

I think insulin sensitivity and body composition matters to most on this board.

 

[Deleted member 123722]

I appreciate the replies.

For my current bulk I'm eating the same meals I used to cut with, but with higher carbs and fats; three meals consist of 300g of Jasmine rice; I've also switched two of those meals from ground beef to top sirloin meals.

Thing is, I'll enjoy some sun chips or some other crap on the side after each of those rice meals and my last meal, which probably adds up to another 800-1k calories.

So if I'm eating 4500 calories, 80% of that being whole food, that leaves me 900 calories to enjoy shit. I was just wondering if I would be better if I didn't eat any shit at all, but I don't see how it would make much of a difference, unless my base meals were actual shit, instead of some junk on the side.

I take berberine and my BG has been 95 fasted, and this is with going back on 5iu of GH ED, but I take it all a night now that I'm not cutting.

My cycle which I started on Monday is 400cyp/400deca/400 primo. My goal is to reach 250 during this cycle.

Here are side-by-sides of me (taken just few mins ago) at 241 vs 213 (at my leanest during cut).



The most noticeable thing is the return of my lower-back fat in the first pic; I've noticed some fluff around my abs. My legs are definitely bigger, my body is much fuller, I'm stronger, and I feel great.

 

[Type-IIx]

I appreciate the replies.

For my current bulk I'm eating the same meals I used to cut with, but with higher carbs and fats; three meals consist of 300g of Jasmine rice; I've also switched two of those meals from ground beef to top sirloin meals.

Thing is, I'll enjoy some sun chips or some other crap on the side after each of those rice meals and my last meal, which probably adds up to another 800-1k calories.

So if I'm eating 4500 calories, 80% of that being whole food, that leaves me 900 calories to enjoy shit. I was just wondering if I would be better if I didn't eat any shit at all, but I don't see how it would make much of a difference, unless my base meals were actual shit, instead of some junk on the side.

I take berberine and my BG has been 95 fasted, and this is with going back on 5iu of GH ED, but I take it all a night now that I'm not cutting.

My cycle which I started on Monday is 400cyp/400deca/400 primo. My goal is to reach 250 during this cycle.

Here are side-by-sides of me (taken just few mins ago) at 241 vs 213 (at my leanest during cut).

View attachment 173175

The most noticeable thing is the return of my lower-back fat in the first pic; I've noticed some fluff around my abs. My legs are definitely bigger, my body is much fuller, I'm stronger, and I feel great.

You look around ~18% b.f., so the above applies, getting into a deficit to get sub 12%, and decreasing low quality CHO like refined carbohydrate sources, decreasing saturated fats, increasing dietary fiber, if you want to improve body composition and insulin resistance.

You mentioned hemorrhoids on another thread - usually a sign of very low fiber intakes for a guy your age - like gout, it's sort of a red flag that your diet is poor, unless you're constantly dehydrated (water is a nutrient, the most important one, too).

Despite using a GDA like BBR to reduce blood glucose, your insulin sensitivity isn't great (this doesn't fix insulin resistance, it just reduces hyperglycemia, so that the pancreatic islet cells are not exposed to toxic levels of glucose and you don't become diabetic).

 

[Deleted member 123722]

You look around ~18% b.f., so the above applies, getting into a deficit to get sub 12%, and decreasing low quality CHO like refined carbohydrate sources, decreasing saturated fats, increasing dietary fiber, if you want to improve body composition and insulin resistance.

You mentioned hemorrhoids on another thread - usually a sign of very low fiber intakes for a guy your age - like gout, it's sort of a red flag that your diet is poor, unless you're constantly dehydrated (water is a nutrient, the most important one, too).

Despite using a GDA like BBR to reduce blood glucose, your insulin sensitivity isn't great (this doesn't fix insulin resistance, it just reduces hyperglycemia, so that the pancreatic islet cells are not exposed to toxic levels of glucose and you don't become diabetic).

My hemorrhoid issue has nothing to do with the diet at all; I got them in the Marines and dealt with them for nearly two decades. I always thought I'd need surgery to get rid of mine since they were very big. I was actually going to get them surgically removed at the VA but Covid hit; this turned out to be a blessing in disguise, since I actually discovered that I could get a noninvasive procedure and I finally got them removed with band ligation i in the last few months; it actually worked and I can finally shit like a normal person again lol.

Yes I certainly gained fatter no doubt, but my buddy told me it would be inevitable since I started my bulk at not the best weight in the first place. A lot of people keep saying get to single digit fat, or cut down before bulking, but my plan is to get big as I can then cut down and stop abusing the gear. Another thing is my friend Gabe has seen me in person, and said not to worry what other say on the forum, to trust him, as he had to go through the same process to really push through barriers. I was probably at 14% before I started my bulk, but the plan is to push to 250 and hold it there for a bit, the reassess.

So I accept I'll probably get a bit fatter, but I will also gain more tissue, then I'll cut, without fucking up like I did last time abusing t3.

Two questions:

How do you know if I'm insulin resistant?
And would something like Metformin help with it?

 

[jJjburton]

I appreciate the replies.

For my current bulk I'm eating the same meals I used to cut with, but with higher carbs and fats; three meals consist of 300g of Jasmine rice; I've also switched two of those meals from ground beef to top sirloin meals.

Thing is, I'll enjoy some sun chips or some other crap on the side after each of those rice meals and my last meal, which probably adds up to another 800-1k calories.

So if I'm eating 4500 calories, 80% of that being whole food, that leaves me 900 calories to enjoy shit. I was just wondering if I would be better if I didn't eat any shit at all, but I don't see how it would make much of a difference, unless my base meals were actual shit, instead of some junk on the side.

I take berberine and my BG has been 95 fasted, and this is with going back on 5iu of GH ED, but I take it all a night now that I'm not cutting.

My cycle which I started on Monday is 400cyp/400deca/400 primo. My goal is to reach 250 during this cycle.

Here are side-by-sides of me (taken just few mins ago) at 241 vs 213 (at my leanest during cut).

View attachment 173175

The most noticeable thing is the return of my lower-back fat in the first pic; I've noticed some fluff around my abs. My legs are definitely bigger, my body is much fuller, I'm stronger, and I feel great.

So it depends if you care about health or not. If it was me knowing my body at a certain point of my bulk i would use those crappy cals to get that extra weight on if needed. But doesnt mean I will be healthy.

 

[Deleted member 123722]

So it depends if you care about health or not. If it was me knowing my body at a certain point of my bulk i would use those crappy cals to get that extra weight on if needed. But doesnt mean I will be healthy.

Yea, this is going to be my final attempt to bulk, which is why I'm pushing through even at not the best bf%. I've prioritized my weak point, such as arms, calves, and delts using a new strategy of volume periodization (Mike Israetel style, which I enjoy very much); I'm even logging of all my lifts and shit on an excell sheet as I increase the volume weekly.

I'm gonna trust what my friend said, get it done, then cut when he gives me the green light. Once I achieve the leanness I want, I will get the fuck off and run a true TRT dose and HGH to maintain. I've been perma-blasting since last November and it has to end eventually.

 

[jJjburton]

Yea, this is going to be my final attempt to bulk, which is why I'm pushing through even at not the best bf%. I've prioritized my weak point, such as arms, calves, and delts using a new strategy of volume periodization (Mike Israetel style, which I enjoy very much); I'm even logging of all my lifts and shit on an excell sheet as I increase the volume weekly.

I'm gonna trust what my friend said, get it done, then cut when he gives me the green light. Once I achieve the leanness I want, I will get the fuck off and run a true TRT dose and HGH to maintain. I've been perma-blasting since last November and it has to end eventually.

As long as you keep in the macros. So staying at x protein, y carbs, z fats.

I always find it comes down to fats. If i keep fats below 90 i will never get fat the ways i exercise, and with ny metabolism. But if i eat just chicken and rice, i burn through those carbs so fast. But the moment i eat with higher fats, i dont need to eat so many times a day.

And trusting the process. See what happens after time, then adjust.

 

[jJjburton]

Yea, this is going to be my final attempt to bulk, which is why I'm pushing through even at not the best bf%. I've prioritized my weak point, such as arms, calves, and delts using a new strategy of volume periodization (Mike Israetel style, which I enjoy very much); I'm even logging of all my lifts and shit on an excell sheet as I increase the volume weekly.

I'm gonna trust what my friend said, get it done, then cut when he gives me the green light. Once I achieve the leanness I want, I will get the fuck off and run a true TRT dose and HGH to maintain. I've been perma-blasting since last November and it has to end eventually.

Also yes to prioritizing weak points when bulking like so. Thats when they would grow best.

 

[Deleted member 123722]

I calculated my calories last night to show what I eat during the week. You'll notice the junk I add to the last three meals, cause I'm still hungry. I could probably just add more rice instead, but I do want to enjoy some foods I like.

So I'm basically in a 1k surplus from my maintenance; it may be too much or unnecessary. I've heard people say just 300-500 is plenty, but I'm actually hungry enough to eat this much food.



This morning: 245lbs

 

[God&Gainz]

Whipped cream cheese, cinnamon toast crunch, and sun chips?

It doesn't take a magician to know what is wrong here.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

I calculated my calories last night to show what I eat during the week. You'll notice the junk I add to the last three meals, cause I'm still hungry. I could probably just add more rice instead, but I do want to enjoy some foods I like.

So I'm basically in a 1k surplus from my maintenance; it may be too much or unnecessary. I've heard people say just 300-500 is plenty, but I'm actually hungry enough to eat this much food.

View attachment 173212

This morning: 245lbs

View attachment 173213

You say yourself here you’re choosing to eat junk instead of more clean food.

That’s the end of the conversation: choice.