Herniated disc - 3 solutions?

[Hayes88]

So I am looking into booking an early operation. Since I am young and still have mobility without
(their words) extreme pain, they don´t wanna operate on me - recommended.
I have a combination of DDD - Degenerate Disc Disease and Herniated Disc they said at L5.
I am OK, some restrictions, some difficulty sleeping at times, slow mornings, need to place
more focus on bracing and position when lifting etc.
Can't dance, for some reason that is the worst after-pain of all oddly enough.
But all in all, OK.

However, it's annoying to have a constant stiffness and ache there each and everyday, as
well as not being able to e.g. kick in Muay Thai to a good extent etc.
This leads me to potentially book operation before summer.

They have 3 solutions here that I am by no means read enough on, but wanted to hear your opinions.
1) Spinal Fusion - Well tested and well-documented, recommended. However, will put strain on other
discs if I do a lot of activity and potentially need to operate more in future.
2) Disc removal with laser - 2mm incision and the laser shots off the pieces that protrude, giving you less
strain/ inflammation and nerve pinch. However, if more of the disc leaves the issue is back immediately.
3) Disc replacement - A unproven and new undocumented treatment where they place a customized
disc/ sponge to replace the old. No longterm data as of yet.

Price vary from 1500 Euro to 15000 Euro from top to bottom depending on hospital as well here.
Can get it for free, but that would be only fusion and 1-2 years wait if I am lucky.
Paying I can get any within 6 months.
- EST 6 week recovery time of all.

Have anyone done any if above who is active and has been for years? Since I want to continue to
push myself in sports/ gym.

 

[Millard]

I have back issues as well and have contemplated surgery. Strongly avoiding it at the moment. But still want to learn more. So I look forward to this thread...

If it's ok, I'm moving this thread to the training subforum. For one, I wouldn't want it to get lost in the random off-topics threads often seen in General Discussion. But most importantly, I think one huge consideration for most people on this forum is how such procedures will impact training and quality of life. For most, training = quality of life.

 

[MadBret]

Well sir. Throughout 2021, I had a fusion done in my neck. It's a titanium plate that is bolted to 3 vertebrae with 6 screws holding it on. I have more movement than I imagined I would before getting the surgery.

Then, a few months later, I had 8 levels of laminectomy and double laminectomies done on my low and mid back.

Then, about 4 months later, I had a disc blow out and the pain became excruciating. So, went back under the knife for the 3rd time that year and had a disk replaced.

Recovery wasn't too bad. I was off the pain meds in maybe a month or two tops.

I'm still stiff and deal with pain, some days being worse than others, but overall am glad to have finally had the surgeries done.

 

[Hayes88]

Well sir. Throughout 2021, I had a fusion done in my neck. It's a titanium plate that is bolted to 3 vertebrae with 6 screws holding it on. I have more movement than I imagined I would before getting the surgery.

Then, a few months later, I had 8 levels of laminectomy and double laminectomies done on my low and mid back.

Then, about 4 months later, I had a disc blow out and the pain became excruciating. So, went back under the knife for the 3rd time that year and had a disk replaced.

Recovery wasn't too bad. I was off the pain meds in maybe a month or two tops.

I'm still stiff and deal with pain, some days being worse than others, but overall am glad to have finally had the surgeries done.

Damn man! You are close to a human terminator by now, glad that it sounds better for you! Had this dicussion with a mate of mine just now, he has 2 discs and instead of going under the knife for his young age, he chose pain meds, morphine to be precise.
Unfortunately, that has become an addiction and dosages/ intervals have increased drastically.

There is always risks involved, but cannot understand why docs rather have you on pills than actually solve it.

 

[MadBret]

Damn man! You are close to a human terminator by now, glad that it sounds better for you! Had this dicussion with a mate of mine just now, he has 2 discs and instead of going under the knife for his young age, he chose pain meds, morphine to be precise.
Unfortunately, that has become an addiction and dosages/ intervals have increased drastically.

There is always risks involved, but cannot understand why docs rather have you on pills than actually solve it.

I was on pain management for years. The doctors actually wanted me to get surgery 10 years earlier than I did but they had fucked up on other, simpler procedures so I was hesitant. But I'm glad I had them done. I was miserable before I finally did it and healing up was pretty fast.

 

[Hayes88]

I have back issues as well and have contemplated surgery. Strongly avoiding it at the moment. But still want to learn more. So I look forward to this thread...

If it's ok, I'm moving this thread to the training subforum. For one, I wouldn't want it to get lost in the random off-topics threads often seen in General Discussion. But most importantly, I think one huge consideration for most people on this forum is how such procedures will impact training and quality of life. For most, training = quality of life.

Absolutely, big thank you! Wasn't sure where to post this. I am booking a consultation now March and will keep it updated with the whats and whys that I get from surgeon.
Seems to be a common question and the only information I hear others get is spinal fusion, but no alternative solutions.

 

[hurricane]

I've had a spinal fusion roughly 12 years ago. I have rods and screws holding it in place. It is an absolute bitch of a procedure to go through with excruciating pain for many weeks post op.
I can tell you this with certainty that you will not be recovered in 6 weeks. It took me 1 year till I was back in the gym. And even at that point I was lifting very light weight. Kiss goodbye to ever doing any type of heavy bent over rows, deadlifting, squats. These exercises still bother me to this day.
The one plus to the operation is that my daily pain is much more tolerable. Some days I am completely pain free.
In my opinion I would only go through with a fusion if it's your only option. For me it was.
And make sure you find a great surgeon who has performed many of these.
Best of luck to you. I know how bad back pain can suck.

 

[MindlessWork]

I am 59 and have early stage DDD in lower back diagnosed in 2020 and so far no pain yet but contemplating fusion surgery down the road once the intense pain hits. Had a checkup recently and so far it has not advanced so been getting it checked yearly. Still keeping active and doing stretching and warmups to keep the back loose.

Good to know what to expect when it comes time to consider fusion and its impact on training as fusion will restrict motion to a degree.

 

[poff1]

I have 6 herniated discs (all from l1-l2 to l5-s1 and C6-C7), not from lifting but rather from overworking (70+ hours/week and 30k+ steps a day).
I have seen 2 different orthopedics and also 2 neurologists (emg was not too bad they said), all of them advised against surgery as it will be very hard to recover from... getting back into lifting has helped a lot, also i have been treating pain with metilprednisolone (oral or injections) and diclofenac (oral or gel).
I have been interested in peptides (BPC157, CJC1295 and TB500) but have not tried them yet.
Does anyone have any experience with them?

 

[Big_paul]

I've had a herniated disc l4-l5 for many years. I've heard more nightmare stories than successes.

Take time to do some more research before you make a decision.

 

[Hayes88]

Damn guys, thank you for sharing! Biological dad has it, but he left it alone and instead fought 2x hip replacements and cancer, extra dad has it and await surgery as well, had to sort shoulder first after a slip on ice. They never complain, feel like a p*ssy compared to the older generation.. Impressive bunch!

The nurse had 2x fusions and she is fully painfree and recovery was just over two months, but she don't exercise besides the constant bending, walking, lifting in work - bless them!

Seems very hard to combine painfree and fitness once it's there....
Surgeon recommended me the laser removal and wait with the rest til age. Don't remember the name, but they shoot off the protruding pieces and body absorb it on its own, which gives me more time.
Will book another appointment there.

 

[Shrek]

I've been struggling with herniated L5 S1 for over a year now. I'm contemplating trying BP 157 or HGH to see if it helps with recovery. I've recovered slightly by natural process but still have a weak back (thankfully I avoided surgery).

I'll be interested to hear if anyone has experience in treating back problems with similar peptides

 

[Norse13]

Damn guys, thank you for sharing! Biological dad has it, but he left it alone and instead fought 2x hip replacements and cancer, extra dad has it and await surgery as well, had to sort shoulder first after a slip on ice. They never complain, feel like a p*ssy compared to the older generation.. Impressive bunch!

The nurse had 2x fusions and she is fully painfree and recovery was just over two months, but she don't exercise besides the constant bending, walking, lifting in work - bless them!

Seems very hard to combine painfree and fitness once it's there....
Surgeon recommended me the laser removal and wait with the rest til age. Don't remember the name, but they shoot off the protruding pieces and body absorb it on its own, which gives me more time.
Will book another appointment there.

I'm 49, I never really got fully back into lifting after surgery for hernia 3 years ago. Drilled through a vertebra for access, cut off the damaged part of the disc, no replacement or fusion. Recovery was no joke, first 7 days I was lying flat on my back, could barely turn head sideways, no rotation of upper body, no lying sideways. Just watch Netflix and YouTube, pissing in a bottle, wife had to help me to bathroom to shit, which I tried to avoid as much as possible.

3 years after, carrying lose dumbbells and plates in the gym is painful, have pain for a couple days if I move the 100lbs dumbbells. It kind of took the fun out of it. No pull exercises that are not back supported. No heavy shoulder press that compresses the spine. Mostly machines to avoid carrying dumbbells.

Once in a while I have problems tying my shoelaces, putting on socks, or just picking up the laptop bag from the floor.

There's a huge diversity in the problems caused by hernias, for some it's relatively small issues, for others it's much bigger.

 

[Norse13]

I've been struggling with herniated L5 S1 for over a year now. I'm contemplating trying BP 157 or HGH to see if it helps with recovery. I've recovered slightly by natural process but still have a weak back (thankfully I avoided surgery).

I'll be interested to hear if anyone has experience in treating back problems with similar peptides

If your hernia is a leaking disc where the herniation is a bubble that presses directly on your spinal cord (as it was with me), I don't understand the bioligical mechanism that a drug would use to fix it. Had zero effect on me, besides allowing the skin to regrow quicker where the cut was made. I didn't have the heart to tell the surgeon when he was in awe by how quickly my scar healed that dude it's probably due to the hgh.

 

[Hayes88]

So far it sounds like 9 cases out of 10 the rehab-time is much longer than informed by surgeons and life after is not even close to adequat for gym/ fitness life... I've been talking to people online and offline and seems all are agreeing on that part. A few has had luck being pain free or close to pain free, but they were in so much pain before the operation that it sounds more like a blessing with thorns (lesser evil).
It freaks me out since I am getting more and more active, not less, though I bet it will calm down a little when kids come.

I am truly lucky that I can even attempt Muay Thai, and Deads/ Squats are no problem. Just very stiff incl the annoying dull pain... Biggest enemy by far for me is sleep, I have I think 6 mattresses at home used a week at most testing what material and hard/ softness works best. Finally found an old Asian style stone of a mattress that works rather good.
Hard helps, soft kills me, so holidays are always messy when I can't sleep at home.

Odd thing is that when this pain came it was horrible, couldn't stand or even sit up at times. No shooting in legs etc, but a constant sharp incl dull pain that never let go in almost the entire back coming from one point. I kept driving MC on bumps and stones making it worse of course. Kept going to the gym when I could. Then one day the pain went from an 7-8 on the scale to a 3-4. Oddly enough, it seems my refusal to sit still actually chipped the piece away by itself not pressing on the nerve anymore...
Scans show that the nerve is fine, but the bones grind against each other causing inflammation, but sounds like that is a good thing now when I read above.

I might look more into the customized sponge operation, if that works it could be revolutionary!

 

[BigMike1210]

I’ve been a PT for 27 years. I can recall very few instances where a patient chose what surgery they had. They would normally look at your X-Ray,MRI, etc and see if the results were supported by your subjective complaints and objective findings. I can honestly say that I’ve never had a patient undergo neurosurgery that didn’t have leg pain and positive neuro signs. They’re typically never going to perform surgery to treat back pain alone. I’d think long and hard about this.(iIt sounds like you are giving it a lot of thought which is commendable). I would not consider a replacement and avoid a fusion unless. Your surgeon advises that you need it. Good luck!

 

[rollinrod]

OP did you ever come to a decision? I've been looking into stem cells more as there are more success stories I'm reading of involving the discs in the spine. i learned about them from the Joe Rogan podcast of all places, lol. But Mexico seems to have a clinic in Tijuana that big name UFC fighters have utilized, as well as some bigger names in the Brazilian jiujitsu scene.

 

[Hayes88]

OP did you ever come to a decision? I've been looking into stem cells more as there are more success stories I'm reading of involving the discs in the spine. i learned about them from the Joe Rogan podcast of all places, lol. But Mexico seems to have a clinic in Tijuana that big name UFC fighters have utilized, as well as some bigger names in the Brazilian jiujitsu scene.

Oh sounds interesting! Well on my end I unfortunately got worse and worse news. So my dad got 2x herniated versions that recently became so painful that it take 2 hours just to come out of bed, eating strong medication in bed to "prepare". Even at that stage the specialist recommended against any form of operation, that if he wanted to continue work he needed to bare the pain, especially in his age (55). So at the moment he now eats 9 tabs a day that disconnect the nerve pain receivers somehow, which apparently was "healthier" than morphine.

In my case it has become better believe it or not. Loosing weight and train back 2x a week and more core training has made me having a way better quality of life, it took time. I only feel it now in bed and long sittings. I can even do squats deep again and sumo deads, but doc recommend against it of course still. Rotation still hurts, I can stretch it out, but return as soon as I stop moving that way.

In regard to operation, they recommend against it for me as well and the only alternative solution was the rather undocumented trial one where you create discs and place in its stead. I was recommended against that as well still since it didn't have enough proof of success and no long-term documentation. I have also been recommended injections, but while that can hinder pain from taking over, it won't fix anything and it might make me move worse since I won't feel what damage me further.

Stem cells have however been a proven method for tons of issues and it is still being documented more and more, I have a feeling tho that it will be crazy expensive in the end.

 

[buck]

For me when the discomfort and quality of life went down hill i got a laminectomy to cut away part of the spine, had some rods installed and L4-5 fused. Taking drugs long term to combat pain to slowly destroy my internal organs was not something i am up for. was out of the hospital the next morning. Off pain meds in less then a week, really didn't need any just took them to make it easier to sit around all day and back to work a week after the surgery. Getting a good diagnosis from a good dr. can be the challenging part. Some just look at the MRI to see where then can start to do surgeries to maybe help the problem.

 

[rollinrod]

Oh sounds interesting! Well on my end I unfortunately got worse and worse news. So my dad got 2x herniated versions that recently became so painful that it take 2 hours just to come out of bed, eating strong medication in bed to "prepare". Even at that stage the specialist recommended against any form of operation, that if he wanted to continue work he needed to bare the pain, especially in his age (55). So at the moment he now eats 9 tabs a day that disconnect the nerve pain receivers somehow, which apparently was "healthier" than morphine.

In my case it has become better believe it or not. Loosing weight and train back 2x a week and more core training has made me having a way better quality of life, it took time. I only feel it now in bed and long sittings. I can even do squats deep again and sumo deads, but doc recommend against it of course still. Rotation still hurts, I can stretch it out, but return as soon as I stop moving that way.

In regard to operation, they recommend against it for me as well and the only alternative solution was the rather undocumented trial one where you create discs and place in its stead. I was recommended against that as well still since it didn't have enough proof of success and no long-term documentation. I have also been recommended injections, but while that can hinder pain from taking over, it won't fix anything and it might make me move worse since I won't feel what damage me further.

Stem cells have however been a proven method for tons of issues and it is still being documented more and more, I have a feeling tho that it will be crazy expensive in the end.

That’s great to hear, man! Sorry to hear about your Pops though. I got epidural steroid injections last year. That helped tremendously with the pain and i was able to deadlift and train jiujitsu again. But like you mentioned, it didn’t fix anything and now my disc is in a worse place than before all be it not as painful, yet. I’m also looking into decompression therapy as there is anecdotal evidence that it helps rehydrate the discs. I also had a consult with the hospital in Tijuana. They have a whole regimen that lasts a week for spinal discs. But damn, it costs as much as a car, and they don’t have payment plans, so I’d have to deal with banks.

The decompression sessions aren’t exactly cheap, but far less than stem cells. FAR less. If I give them a go and note any improvements in disc height I’ll report back here and let you know how it went.