Doctor-Overcautious?

[anavar_goblin]

These labs aren’t anything to get excited about. The LFTs are likely part training effect and part gear related. The ALT spike may be due to primo so I’d watch that if you run it again. If you run anavar again might be good to check in on your Cystatin C levels (can be harsh on kidneys in some) as well as ggt to see if it’s having any actual impact on liver. Also good to track your hsCRP. otherwise those labs aren’t too bad at all given the compounds you’re on. Of course I’d advocate for using a statin and ezetimibe at the very least while on a cycle with DHT’s but some might consider that overkill. Really no reason to just let the LDL run wild. 8-12 weeks of LDL over 100 and HDL under 30 is clinically relevant for plaque buildup.

I just had an echo done and there wasn't any sign of plaque buildup. That they saw and it all came back clean no LVH or anything of the sort. Cardiologist was happy. I'll make sure to check those labs! Thank you for all this it's super helpful.

 

[anavar_goblin]

I had elevated liver enzyme levels for 30 years (although not 2x the top) and no Dr cared. Training and eating a high protein diet and gear can do that. When i eat more then 1.25gr/lb+ pf protein these days my levels go over the top of the range. And i am not on any big doses of gear.The same enzyme that is a by product of protein digestion is the same enzyme that they test for in the blood for liver damage.

I've noticed its high. I let him know I'm on a high protein diet as well. I'm healthy as can be and his specialty is physical therapy outside of being a Doc and while we were taking he commented that I look way more jacked than 3 months prior and he was stoked for me because he can see defined muscle definition. It was a big confidence booster since body dysmorphia sucks.

 

[buck]

I've noticed its high. I let him know I'm on a high protein diet as well. I'm healthy as can be and his specialty is physical therapy outside of being a Doc and while we were taking he commented that I look way more jacked than 3 months prior and he was stoked for me because he can see defined muscle definition. It was a big confidence booster since body dysmorphia sucks.

I was the second fattest kid in my class 50-60 years ago when being fat was not normal like it is theses days. I have stepped on bodybuilding stages in shape and felt fat. In the end how i feel about myself is about far more then the amount of fat i carry. knowing i can accomplish goals or fail and still get up and move ahead gives me more pride and sense of worth then low % of body fat.

 

[Photon]

I just had an echo done and there wasn't any sign of plaque buildup. That they saw and it all came back clean no LVH or anything of the sort. Cardiologist was happy. I'll make sure to check those labs! Thank you for all this it's super helpful.

echo won't show plaque
you need a cac scan for hard plaque
or a cleerly scan for hard+soft plaque

your baseline ldl is fine tho, if you get it back to that level i'd not worry about it too much.

 

[Sicsemptyran]

Just for starters some i have bookmarked. Hope i didn't double post any from different souses. My favorite is the one with 12.8 million showing the longest lifes spans have cholesterol levels around 220. And a couple hours of searching will show you even more if you care to look.

As @BP_6 alluded to, most of these studies haven't been debunked per se, because they're not wrong, but have been explained to lead quite clearly to other conclusions than what the studies suggest.

When the body is sick or dying, for example in cancer/drug addiction/etc, it is extraordinarily common for LDL to absolutely collapse. Total cholesterol (to your 220 point) also often collapses, because as we know HDL also drops in the presence of sickness and insulin resistance.

If you look at hospital mortality as BP_6 notes, the highest mortality are in those individuals with low to low-normal blood pressure rather than high blood pressure, because it shows they are dying. It doesn't mean that high blood pressure is good for health!

Beyond the mountains of literature showing clearly that lipid lowering and health-span with seemingly no lower limit, the final nail in the coffin for the too-low-might-be-bad argument is studies relating to those with a nonfunctional PCSK9 gene, the same gene PCSK9 inhibitors like Repatha work on. These individuals have hilariously low cholesterol, with LDL's oftentimes well below 30, and yet have seemingly ZERO negative impacts from the lack of LDL. They just don't get heart disease!

 

[buck]

As @BP_6 alluded to, most of these studies haven't been debunked per se, because they're not wrong, but have been explained to lead quite clearly to other conclusions than what the studies suggest.

When the body is sick or dying, for example in cancer/drug addiction/etc, it is extraordinarily common for LDL to absolutely collapse. Total cholesterol (to your 220 point) also often collapses, because as we know HDL also drops in the presence of sickness and insulin resistance.

If you look at hospital mortality as BP_6 notes, the highest mortality are in those individuals with low to low-normal blood pressure rather than high blood pressure, because it shows they are dying. It doesn't mean that high blood pressure is good for health!

Beyond the mountains of literature showing clearly that lipid lowering and health-span with seemingly no lower limit, the final nail in the coffin for the too-low-might-be-bad argument is studies relating to those with a nonfunctional PCSK9 gene, the same gene PCSK9 inhibitors like Repatha work on. These individuals have hilariously low cholesterol, with LDL's oftentimes well below 30, and yet have seemingly ZERO negative impacts from the lack of LDL. They just don't get heart disease!

I have seen not long term studies that show having very very low cholesterol levels for ones whole life makes for better longevity. Most studies are geared towards those that have diseases states

With blood pressure those that are sick in a hospital may not be better off with a low BP. Yet the evidence tends to show the lower the BP the better as long as there are no negative symptoms for the population as a whole as less damage is accrued.

What is good for sick or abnormal people isn't always the best for the average or healthy person.

For decades studies that the medical community pushed such as plant fats from trans fats being healthier then butter. But there was a push back from small groups till enough evidence came out showing that the majority opinion was wrong and so were the studies that seemed so overwhelming supportive at one time with all plant fats being better animal fats.

In the 2005 TNT study, 10,001 people with stable heart disease received either maximum-dose 80-mg Lipitor® or a standard dose of 10-mg Lipitor® daily.1 Maximum-dose Lipitor® reduced levels of harmful low density lipoprotein (LDL) to an average of 77 mg/dL. This represented a substantial reduction in LDL. In comparison, standard-dose Lipitor® reduced LDL to an average level of 101 mg/dL, which was also a good result.1

​

Over the five years of the study, 434 people (8.7%) in the 80-mg group experienced another cardiovascular incident (such as a heart attack or stroke) versus 548 people (10.9%) in the 10-mg group. This was an improvement of 2.2%, which meant 104 fewer cardiovascular incidents with maximum-dose Lipitor® compared with standard-dose Lipitor®. Twenty-nine fewer deaths from cardiovascular causes (126 versus 155) occurred with maximum-dose Lipitor®. These were also good results. However, this improvement in deaths was completely offset when 31 more people taking maximum-dose Lipitor® died from other causes. Overall, maximum-dose Lipitor® did not reduce the number of deaths in comparison with low-dose Lipitor®. In fact, the total number of deaths slightly increased in those taking maximum-dose Lipitor®. This startling fact means that maximum-dose Lipitor® increased the risk of death due to non-cardiovascular causes! This included 10 more deaths from cancer in the maximum-dose Lipitor® group versus the 10-mg group.1
LaRosa JC, Grundy SM, Waters DD, et al. Intensive lipid lowering with atorvastatin in patients with stable coronary disease. N Engl J Med. 2005 Apr 4;352(14):1425‑35.


I support people reading and learning themselves best they can and do what they think is best for themselves. I don't tell people what they should do with their life.

 

[Sicsemptyran]

I have seen not long term studies that show having very very low cholesterol levels for ones whole life makes for better longevity. Most studies are geared towards those that have diseases states

With blood pressure those that are sick in a hospital may not be better off with a low BP. Yet the evidence tends to show the lower the BP the better as long as there are no negative symptoms for the population as a whole as less damage is accrued.

Agreed on all the above, besides the fact that the very very low LDL side has been shown, which I pointed out with the studies of individuals who have genetically low LDL.

There’s been countless Mendelian randomization studies showing quite clearly that lower LDL = better outcomes when other factors are controlled for, with no lower limit to be found as of yet.

To your study on Lipitor, I don’t think many people that share my take would be terribly surprised by that. Max dose statins, especially something like atorvastatin, is a horribly crude and counterproductive way of lowering LDL. Can lead to insulin sensitivity issues/etc.

I’d agree that the usual way of reaching a very very low LDL is likely counterproductive, but there’s only evidence the drug causing the low LDL is to blame, not lower LDL itself. In today’s age of having much more elegant tools to lower LDL, I think much of that risk can be avoided.

By the way, while I disagree with you and think the evidence is much more clear, I do sincerely appreciate your thoughtful response.

 

[dinfaralt]

everything here screams waste money to me.

you dont need anything else than trt + hgh in a deficit. go get to 10% bodyfat and blast primo and 10103412304130 different supplements, you're wasting bunch of money and health for 0.01kg extra muscle