Chinese HGH - Clear or Cloudy

[Tobman]

Evening

I purchase from a well know Chinese source
Just noticed that once mixed
It doesn’t go perfectly clear, even when it’s left to settle
Has vaccum when reconstituted

I used a vial from 3 different boxes
And one dragon HGH to compare
Also bac water has been tried at room temperature and refrigerated

Is this a common thing for the Chinese sellers not to be perfectly clear?

 

[BigDadd7]

How many IU and how much bac? You can't put 1 ml into 40 IU and expect clear.

 

[Tobman]

How many IU and how much bac? You can't put 1 ml into 40 IU and expect clear.

Just the standard
They are 10ui vials with 1ml bac water

 

[BigDadd7]

That should have cleared up.

How long did you wait?

 

[Tobman]

That should have cleared up.

How long did you wait?

Been over 48hrs and exactly the same

 

[Tobman]

As you can see the dragon on right clear
4 vials from 4 different boxes and one of the boxes purchased 3 months earlier

 

[OldGHGuy]

Hate to tell you but its shit - throw it away and contact the seller to inquire about being made right. Some will argue but GH is supposed to be clear - plain and simple. Pharma tells you to discard if cloudy right in the insert.

 

[Tobman]

Hate to tell you but its shit - throw it away and contact the seller to inquire about being made right. Some will argue but GH is supposed to be clear - plain and simple. Pharma tells you to discard if cloudy right in the insert.

Thank you for a response
I have contacted the seller but am yet to receive a response, since they’re very active on here I’m surprised that more haven’t come across the issue

 

[baht]

You also used the same bac water?
What Old said if you did. Looks like the color of insulin :X

 

[Ghoul]

It’s most often protein aggregation. Aggregated rHGH is inactive.

Many things can cause it, but for UGL most likely it’s rHGH exposed to high temps (and / or oxygen) in storage or shipping loses structural stability, it unfolds, exposing previously protected “sticky” parts if the peptide chain, and become much more susceptible to clumping up with other rHGH molecules. Once these aggregates reach a certain size, they develop a kind of “gravity” that makes non-damaged folded rHGH molecules start sticking to the clump too.

Once it starts, the aggregate will continue to grow, with more and more molecules of rHGH attaching until it reaches a size based on the concentration of your solution. Only after tens of millions of rHGH monomers (single molecules of active rHGH) aggregate do they become large enough to become visible.

Aggregates form as soluble or insoluble. if they’re soluble, and you add more BAC, another ml or two, some or all of the rHGH will disassociate back into individual monomers and you’ll recover some of the rHGH from inactive back to active form.

 

[Tobman]

You also used the same bac water?
What Old said if you did. Looks like the color of insulin :X

I used 2 x different bac water as well
Was hoping it was my own error
But seems not

 

[madcap71]

Did you not agree with the answer you got on UKM? It's likely because you had your BAC water in the fridge

 

[Tobman]

It’s most often protein aggregation. Aggregated rHGH is inactive.

rHGH exposed to high temps (and / or oxygen) in storage or shipping loses structural stability, it unfolds, exposing previously protected “sticky” parts if the peptide chain, and become much more susceptible to clumping up with other rHGH molecules. Once these aggregates reach a certain size, they develop a kind of “gravity” that makes non-damaged folded rHGH molecules start sticking to the clump too.

Once it starts, the aggregate will continue to grow, with more and more molecules of rHGH attaching until it reaches a size based on the concentration of your solution. Only after tens of millions of rHGH monomers (single molecules of active rHGH) aggregate do they become large enough to become visible.

Aggregates form as soluble or insoluble. if they’re soluble, and you add more BAC, another ml or two, some or all of the rHGH will disassociate back into individual monomers and you’ll recover some of the rHGH from inactive back to active form.

View attachment 357553View attachment 357554

Thank you for such a detailed response
You can see movement as such in it
so does this mean the HGH has degraded as such or merely just more visible in the solution?

 

[Tobman]

Did you not agree with the answer you got on UKM? It's likely because you had your BAC water in the fridge

A brand new bac water
Completely at room temperature was used
And it was entirely the same afterwards

 

[Ghoul]

Thank you for such a detailed response
You can see movement as such in it
so does this mean the HGH has degraded as such or merely just more visible in the solution?

It just means it’s clumped up. If you fill the vial and the particles disappear after 15-20 minutes, they were soluble aggregates and the lower concentration allowed them to separate back into functional rHGH.

You don’t want to inject aggregates, visible or invisible, so I always filter. It’s not going to kill you, or even cause any noticeable effect (other than a possible reaction at the injection site), but aggregates attract the attention of the immune system, which then develops rHGH destroying antibodies. This happens with almost all rHGH, even commercial pharma, but it must be kept to a low level or you’ll progressively build immunity to rHGH making it less and less effective. Which could be very long lasting. Anywhere from weeks to many years.

This process is called “immunogenicity”, triggered by aggregates, and it’s a potential problem for all protein / peptide drugs. It’s basically the same thing vaccines do intentionally, except in this case developing immunity to a drug is obviously undesirable.

 

[Tobman]

It just means it’s clumped up. If you fill the vial and the particles disappear after 15-20 minutes, they were soluble aggregates and the lower concentration allowed them to separate back into functional rHGH.

You don’t want to inject aggregates, visible or invisible, so I always filter. It’s not going to kill you, or even cause any noticeable effect (other than a possible reaction at the injection site), but aggregates attract the attention of the immune system, which then develops rHGH destroying antibodies. This happens with almost all rHGH, even commercial pharma, but it must be kept to a low level or you’ll progressively build immunity to rHGH making it less and less effective. Which could be very long lasting. Anywhere from weeks to many years.

This process is called “immunogenicity”, triggered by aggregates, and it’s a potential problem for all protein / peptide drugs. It’s basically the same thing vaccines do intentionally, except in this case developing immunity to a drug is obviously undesirable.

So you would see this as a damaged product sold by the seller ?

 

[Ghoul]

So you would see this as a damaged product sold by the seller ?

I’d say I’ve never seen a Chinese seller do anything to replace “cloudy” rHGH. They always blame the end user and move on. Maybe it was ok when they shipped it, and it got stuck in a box near the roof of a cargo container in August hitting 150° f, not uncommon (I try to order peptides in cooler months). Maybe it had been sitting in a hot basement underneath a Beijing dry cleaner for a year before you got it. Who knows. This is why Pharma peptides are made by people in space suits and shipped in temp controlled conditions.

Toss it or filter it is my opinion.

At the very least try increasing dilution. Personally I’d filter it prior to use (remember, visible clarity is no assurance of lack of aggregation).

Just so you’re fully informed if you say fuck it and inject clouded solution, let me elaborate on the real world impact aggregates can have, and this is with pharma that wasn’t cloudy, and very likely has extremely low aggregates, unlike UGL:

None of us test for rHGH neutralizing antibodies, but if enough form they certainly affect rHGH effectiveness. The medial protocol has been to switch brands, (to one that hopefully has fewer aggregates the individual is sensitive to), and/or take a break.

Here you can see the level of inhibition (the amount of rHGH rendered ineffective by antibodies) in short stature children treated with rHGH and the steps taken to try and recover effectiveness.



And because endocrinologists know this matters while some bro-scientists will claim it doesn’t, here’s data from a brand of commercial pharma grade rHGH intended to illustrate the level of antibody production they produce vs competitors:



The biggest potential risk with peptides that resemble endogenous hormones like GH or GLP is the potential of developing immunity against your own naturally produced proteins. In other words, you develop immunity, and therefore reduced response, to your own naturally produced protein of the same compound.

Personally I don’t inject any unfiltered peptide to minimize immunogenicity risk.

 

[Tobman]

And just to be completely open
This is a 36ui with 3.6ml
Received at the same time
Perfectly clear

 

[Ghoul]

And just to be completely open
This is a 36ui with 3.6ml
Received at the same time
Perfectly clear
View attachment 357580

To be fair, a small enough amount of water to peptide ratio will always cause aggregation. No commercial pharma formulation is higher than 15iu/ml without special anti-aggregation ingredients (like polyaxamer 188), to prevent that from happening, allowing high concentrations of rHGH to be used:



It’s often those ingredients that prevent degradation in reconstituted form (like pens), that make it falsely appear to have a lower “purity” than UGL, btw.

But for UGL, the main way heat damages rHGH isn’t through lower purity on a Jano test, it’s through instability and aggregate formation happening more easily than it would otherwise. Anecdotally, reports of cloudy rHGH here are higher around the summer months, and lower in the middle of winter:

 

[Tobman]

To be fair, a small enough amount of water to peptide ratio will always cause aggregation. No commercial pharma formulation is higher than 15iu/ml without special anti-aggregation ingredient to prevent that from happening.

It’s often those ingredients that prevent degradation in reconstituted form (like pens), that make it falsely appear to have a lower “purity” than UGL, btw.

Thank you for your responses
So if I filter the cloudy HGH
Will it still hold the value of 10ui
Or has that degraded and it’s lower now ?