Better endurance performance?

[demeurj]

GH, EPO and steroids are all used. Eq can help with RBCs but with it and any roid you need to watch the total dose/week. I know athletes, not bodybuilders, who use aas at 300-600mg/week total and do great at strength/endurance sports. I would guess 300-400mg/week would do most endurance athletes well. Mast, anavar and halo are all good for gaining strength but not weight and Test and EQ could be useful at lower doses. talk to cyclists who use.

Well as a former cyclist I can honestly say Testosterone would suck. I was a NORBA Sport and a Cat 5 on the road. As a former sprinter (track athlete), running back, and wrestler it's quite incontrovertible that I would have benefited from Test. If I was a NORBA downhiller, Test may have been useful. But what separates big dogs from posers in competitive cycling (road) is lung capacity, heart contractility, and O2 carrying capacity in the blood.

The notion that low dose Test +/- EQ will benefit a trained cyclist is certainly conceivable. The notion that it would be comparable or even complementary to the benefits from EPO, hGH, or stimulants is just plain ignorance.

Thoroughbreds run on EQ . . . but they don't run very far. EQ at doses sufficient to significantly increase RBC production will probably suppress the HPG (gonadal for the sake of the women) axis. Therefore, you would have to take sufficient Test to match the loss of endogenous Test. Regardless, you WILL require PCT after a cycle. During PCT, you will lose the hematopoeitic benefit. So what was the point? Now the typical RBC does have a lifespan of 120 days so it is reasonable to believe gear might help but there's a myriad of reasons we used variations of EPO instead of AAS to boost hematocrit in the healthy and the sick.

EPO, hGH, (and to a limited extent stimulants) are not only highly efficacious but they can be used year round from training to competition.

Now an interesting element comes from research implying endurance training lowers test levels. If a person has low Test levels then supplemental test may be beneficial. Furthermore, this replacement therapy for the endurance athlete would not require PCT and could be given year round. But that's a far cry from talking about 400 or even 300mg of gear a week.

So let's be clear what's going on:

There's no doubt that AAS can augment muscle and strength development. But only an idiot would use AAS in lieu of EPO or hGH if they were looking for endurance. While the fool that would stack EPO and AAS and then hop on a bicycle for a stage ride will expeditiously be culled from the gene pool.

 

[demeurj]

Hendler et al 1990 Thus, these preliminary observations suggest that androgens may not improve hemoglobin-oxygen transport and that androgen-induced increases in red cell mass may only balance increased tissue oxygen requirements produced by these anabolic hormones.

Naik et al 1978 A double blind cross-over trial of Nandrolone decanoate (Decadurabolin) was carried out in 27 patients with anaemia due to end stage renal disease, stabilised on regular haemodialysis. Sixteen patients completed the study, the other patients being excluded from the final analysis for a variety of reasons including side effects related to the androgen. There was no sustained significant rise in haemoglobin concentration or in red cell mass. Erythropoietin levels did not alter, they were within or below the normal range, but were lower than would be expected for the degree of anaemia. A majority of patients reported increased well-being including exercise tolerance, appetite and libido. Voice changes and hirsutism were noted, mainly in the females. Instability of anticoagulant therapy and abnormalities in liver function were found in some patients. The benefits, though real, were restricted essentially to the improvement in subjective findings and were unrelated to laboratory measurements. These effects might be obtained with a lower dosage of the drug.

 

[scrappy]

I can honestly say I have no experience cycling. I do know that AAS help endurance/performance for a lot of sports that are less pure endurance and more anaerobic endurance, like fighting.
If the goal is cycling, I would listen to guys who did this at a high level. In no way do I think AAS are better for endurance than EPO. I do know some cyclists though and they do use AAS, EPO and GH. Mainly this is about finding what works for you after you get some guidance from experienced guys.
My sport, which is beating the shit out of people, is clearly different than riding a bike so maybe I should just shut the fuck up. However, the original question was is there a steroid out there to help and is winny the best one. I think there are steroids and other things out there that help and I wouldn't say winny is #1. Clearly you would not take AAS come off and then compete. I would never suggest this. I would suggest competeing in the enhanced state. I also think a lot more people have access to and better control over their use of AAS vs. EPO. Of course EPO is better for endurance, but if you're not competing at the highest levels, I'm not sure it's worth tracking hematocrit.
For this triathlete looking for a steroid to help with performance but not gain much weight, there are options. If he's really looking to go to the next level then EPO is it, but I think that road requires a little more personalization and research than can be given here. Animal may have some good advice on this and I think he and several others have not died from using AAS, GH and EPO at once. Though these guys know what they are doing and have the tools to track their health status.

 

[Smokin]

So demeurj did you ever consider aas to help your cycling performance?
Just like BBing aas is used as a crutch to help take you to the next level
Is it the proper drug most likely not but it will help as long as you have your
Training and diet in place.
When I was a cat 3 and Norba Pro I took dbal and droped my climbing times
Dramaticly and sprints lasted forever. I didnt take it to improve endurance but to add a little bit of mass but it helped with both. Yes EPO or HGH would be a better choice.

 

[demeurj]

So demeurj did you ever consider aas to help your cycling performance?
Just like BBing aas is used as a crutch to help take you to the next level
Is it the proper drug most likely not but it will help as long as you have your
Training and diet in place.
When I was a cat 3 and Norba Pro I took dbal and droped my climbing times
Dramaticly and sprints lasted forever. I didnt take it to improve endurance but to add a little bit of mass but it helped with both. Yes EPO or HGH would be a better choice.

I never considered gear b/c I didn't start cycling until after I had torn two ACLs . . . so my anaerobic athletic career was essentially finished. I enjoy riding as an athletic/social outlet but rarely competed in more than three events a year . . . that's why my rating sux.

I do not doubt that dbal improved your climbs and sprints but dball is one of the last options I would choose if I had to do gear and continue riding. Anadrol would like suck great big donkey gonads as well. Winny wouldn't be out of the question while Anavar might be reasonable as well. True anti-catabolics would likely provide more benefit than anabolic compounds.

I agree wholeheartedly that training and diet are key but best evidence (clinical data) for AAS does not support their use for endurance (stage rides). Time trials and being the team rabbit maybe.

 

[la_triathlete]

my 2 cents

OK, first off, as a triathlete and former distance swimmer (I went to Olympic Trials in 2000), I can say that Epo would be the way to go, but only when you are in season and in major competition mode- dont bother using it just during your normal workout season. I have done numerous Epo "cycles." Typically, I injected once a week for 8 weeks (the guy who posted an injection EOD was WAY off base), starting off with 20,000, 10,000, 5,000, 2,000(for the remaining 8 weeks). This may seem like A LOT, but it worked for me. I had a doc check my blood chemistry before starting, then every week during my injections to make sure I was not DANGEROUSLY high. It usually took about a week and a half to see an in my blood levels and about 3.5 weeks to see the dramatic increase I was looking for. In terms of seeing a drop following the completion of injects usually took about 1.5 weeks, but to drop back down to my normal base line usually took about 5-6 weeks.

During the off season, I did regular AAS cycles. A few times, I threw in some Epo just for experimentation, but not usually. I always stayed away from stuff like dbol, anadrol, etc. but typically had a longer acting test ester in with the cycle (but at a lower dose- 200-300mg/ week and only during the off season). I dont think this was ever a problem, as I trained just as hard in the off season as I did during the competition season. Of course I stayed away from Deca as it was detectable for quite some time after use (Im sure you all know that anyway).

If I was going to do any AAS during my competition season, it would be more towards the beginning/ middle of the season and would consist of things like winny, tren, primo, EQ (things that would not add bulk, but would add strength). I would only do the epo cycles at the end when we were in end of the season meets (Nationals, etc.) Furthermore, I would not overlap the Epo with the AAS. Its completely ok to do if you want, I just didnt. I figured that the AAS would give me added strength, while the Epo was definitely more of a performance issue at meets and during end of the season hard practices and tapering weeks. I did, however, do a Epo/ GH cycle leading up to trials. It worked very nicely (just not nice enough to make the team- but then, I just wasnt talented enough to make it, regardless of how much Epo, GH, or AAS I did).

Something to note, however, was that when I did do winny or tren, I typically noticed a dip in my endurance level while my more sprint oriented workouts were better. This is something you might want to just be aware of. This was the main reason why my AAS cycles were at the beginning of the season, and not at the end. Of course, when my Epo kicked in, I never had an endurance issue, and my sprinting was never hindered (in the sense of not dipping below my normal level). The other reason why I stayed away from AAS after mid season was that they typically decreased my flexibility, which was a major issue.

As a triathlete (I am not competing this year), I again stayed away from dbol and anadrol, but did do cycles with test (again, lower levels), as well as have EQ and tren in with the cycle. Personally, I never did any races that required any sort of drug testing, plus, as a non professional triathlete, the drug testing issues was never one I worried about. If you are not a professional, but just a HARD CORE triathlete, then you should not worry to much about being tested (I really think that stuff only applies to the pros).

This year I decided to do a BB show, so I am finally doing things like anadrol (which is fu*king great stuff). But for more endurance oriented sports (which is my background), anadrol was not really an option.

Demeurj mentioned that taking exogenous Epo would be dumb if your body has already started to increase its hemo/ hemato in response to your training. Fair point, but you wont know until you get a blood test. Personally, unless you are training in high altitudes and with VERY HIGH milage during your running and cycling workouts, this is probably not the case. Furthermore, I highly doubt that even with naturally increased levels, you could not benefit from a bit more Epo. The main thing is just have a doc test your blood chem. every two weeks.

Finally, as for stimulants, I tried it a few times, but it just made me too jittery. Actually, all the times I false started was when I was using caffeine or ephedra.

Please know, I am not giving out any advice, just relaying my own experiences.

Anyway, that is all my 2 cents.

Best of luck

 

[TRI-Endurance]

OK, first off, as a triathlete and former distance swimmer (I went to Olympic Trials in 2000), I can say that Epo would be the way to go, but only when you are in season and in major competition mode- dont bother using it just during your normal workout season. I have done numerous Epo "cycles." Typically, I injected once a week for 8 weeks (the guy who posted an injection EOD was WAY off base), starting off with 20,000, 10,000, 5,000, 2,000(for the remaining 8 weeks). This may seem like A LOT, but it worked for me. I had a doc check my blood chemistry before starting, then every week during my injections to make sure I was not DANGEROUSLY high. It usually took about a week and a half to see an in my blood levels and about 3.5 weeks to see the dramatic increase I was looking for. In terms of seeing a drop following the completion of injects usually took about 1.5 weeks, but to drop back down to my normal base line usually took about 5-6 weeks.

During the off season, I did regular AAS cycles. A few times, I threw in some Epo just for experimentation, but not usually. I always stayed away from stuff like dbol, anadrol, etc. but typically had a longer acting test ester in with the cycle (but at a lower dose- 200-300mg/ week and only during the off season). I dont think this was ever a problem, as I trained just as hard in the off season as I did during the competition season. Of course I stayed away from Deca as it was detectable for quite some time after use (Im sure you all know that anyway).

If I was going to do any AAS during my competition season, it would be more towards the beginning/ middle of the season and would consist of things like winny, tren, primo, EQ (things that would not add bulk, but would add strength). I would only do the epo cycles at the end when we were in end of the season meets (Nationals, etc.) Furthermore, I would not overlap the Epo with the AAS. Its completely ok to do if you want, I just didnt. I figured that the AAS would give me added strength, while the Epo was definitely more of a performance issue at meets and during end of the season hard practices and tapering weeks. I did, however, do a Epo/ GH cycle leading up to trials. It worked very nicely (just not nice enough to make the team- but then, I just wasnt talented enough to make it, regardless of how much Epo, GH, or AAS I did).

Something to note, however, was that when I did do winny or tren, I typically noticed a dip in my endurance level while my more sprint oriented workouts were better. This is something you might want to just be aware of. This was the main reason why my AAS cycles were at the beginning of the season, and not at the end. Of course, when my Epo kicked in, I never had an endurance issue, and my sprinting was never hindered (in the sense of not dipping below my normal level). The other reason why I stayed away from AAS after mid season was that they typically decreased my flexibility, which was a major issue.

As a triathlete (I am not competing this year), I again stayed away from dbol and anadrol, but did do cycles with test (again, lower levels), as well as have EQ and tren in with the cycle. Personally, I never did any races that required any sort of drug testing, plus, as a non professional triathlete, the drug testing issues was never one I worried about. If you are not a professional, but just a HARD CORE triathlete, then you should not worry to much about being tested (I really think that stuff only applies to the pros).

This year I decided to do a BB show, so I am finally doing things like anadrol (which is fu*king great stuff). But for more endurance oriented sports (which is my background), anadrol was not really an option.

Demeurj mentioned that taking exogenous Epo would be dumb if your body has already started to increase its hemo/ hemato in response to your training. Fair point, but you wont know until you get a blood test. Personally, unless you are training in high altitudes and with VERY HIGH milage during your running and cycling workouts, this is probably not the case. Furthermore, I highly doubt that even with naturally increased levels, you could not benefit from a bit more Epo. The main thing is just have a doc test your blood chem. every two weeks.

Finally, as for stimulants, I tried it a few times, but it just made me too jittery. Actually, all the times I false started was when I was using caffeine or ephedra.

Please know, I am not giving out any advice, just relaying my own experiences.

Anyway, that is all my 2 cents.

Best of luck

Thanks for the advice. I'm understanding that a 8 week cycle is the way to go. Starting EPO at 20,000(week 1) 10,000(week 2) 5000(week 3) then 2000 for the other weeks. When will I see results? And where can I get this substance EPOGEN? Thanks again.

 

[demeurj]

Bump for la_triathlete, your personal account is quite helpful . . . and unlike some posters at Meso-Rx . . . it's actually believable.

Supraphysiological doses of EPO are just like supraphysiological doses of AAS . . . it's going to make a difference in everyone . . . it's just a matter of how big. All of my true experience with EPO is in various types of anemia where the issue is getting someone's Hct out of the teens or twenties.

Epogen should be going off patent in 2004 in the EU. It's a good (and expensive) drug so multiple generics should be available within a couple of years. The US patent is good until 2008 and Amgen has some shadiness they may use to extend the patent to 2013. Epogen will be replaced by Aransep (same crap basically).

But even moreso than AAS . . . Epogen is so expensive that counterfeits are mad business.

 

[einstein1905]

I had to use EPO to get through this thread

 

[buddy]

Test

I guess I should clarify a little. I do not think test would be great for endurance per se, I was thinking more a long the lines of recovery from training. Deca did wonders for my joints while cycling and there was no need to do high dose for the anabolic and joint lubrication effect.

 

[Smokin]

Now thats what I like to see Endurance guy sharing there experiences.
Thanks la_triathlete...

TRI-Endurance it sounds like you still need to do a bit more research.
What worked for la_triathlete may be too much for you

 

[la_triathlete]

Tri-Endurance,

As "Smokin" mentioned- PLEASE do not try and just repeat my EPO cycle. Again, I mentioned it because that was my user experience, but your body will certainly be different. Look, unless you can get a blood test before and one or 2 during, I would suggest going with MUCH LOWER doses. Try 2,000 IU/ wk for the 8 weeks.

I admit that I have been guilty of just looking at other peoples cycles and saying "well, if that worked for them, it should work for me." The big thing is that while AAS have their own side effects, there is much more knowledge known and shared regarding their effects. Newbies should never try and replicate the hard cycle of a pro body builder- the amount of AAS they probably do would mess you up. I say this because I am not a newbie when it comes to using Epo. Furthermore, EPO's mode of action occurs quickly. One week, you might have a good, high level of hemo/ hemato in your system, but the next week, it can be dangerously high, even if you are decreasing the amount you inject. In a case like this, you should skip a week or two of injections. For this reason, getting blood tests are a good idea.

In regards to when you will see results, I started to notice a change in my endurance level about 2 weeks after my first shot, but got the big bump about 4-5 weeks in.

In regards to where you can get EPO- since it is not a controlled substance (at least not like AAS), you can get it from overseas.

In regards to Buddy's post- I would have loved to use deca for just the reasons you pointed out (joint lubrication) but as a college athlete, we were subject to random drug tests. There was no point in pushing the envelope more than I already was! I have since used Deca now that I am no longer subject to competition based drug testing. It is a great piece of gear to use. My sholders felt a million times better while I was on it.

 

[TRI-Endurance]

Thanks again. I have be research for some time now and I think I am ready to try EPO but still don't know where to get it. Over seas where? I talked to my doctor about this and she agreed to test my blood levels, but will no prescribe Epogen for me. Any suggestions? Thanks a million.

 

[demeurj]

Thanks again. I have be research for some time now and I think I am ready to try EPO but still don't know where to get it. Over seas where? I talked to my doctor about this and she agreed to test my blood levels, but will no prescribe Epogen for me. Any suggestions? Thanks a million.

It would be horribly unethical for a doctor to prescribe EPO for an otherwise healthy person. EPO is serious business . . . we aren't talking about acne, gyno, or shriveled raisins . . . we are talking about pushing up daisies. Now if I was your doctor I would agree to monitor your response to EPO but I wouldn't prescribe it. And I would try my best to convince you to go a different direction.

I guess I'm flip-flopping but if you are determined to take something to boost endurance (that's somewhat economical and does not require medical monitoring) . . . I guess I would say EQ.

If you are hell bent on EPO then just search the web for a foreign pharmacy. But if you thought scammers were bad around here . . . you haven't seen anything.

Damn I need to get out of the hospital . . . drugstore.com quotes
4000U/ml $50 per 1ml vial
2000U/ml $24 per 1ml vial

 

[Lanceromance1]

Im going to go out on a limb here and recomend something that has really been working for me lately. Try any NO2 type supplement. Pinnacle NOX2 or Scifit Nitrox are amazing for me in terms of endurance. The active ingrediant is L-Ariginine alpha-ketoglutarate. I'm surprised that more endurance athletes haven't picked up on this shit. It's supposed to be a hemodialator and increase oxygen uptake, cure cancer, blah,blah,blah. Truth is I really can't find any hard data on how it works once inside the body. It's made a difference in the pump I get from working out (it's arbitrary if the "pump" is really any beneficial) and when I'm done at the gym I'm not nearly as fatigued. It hit me the other day when I was doing cardio how much longer I can go. That seems to be the most noticable trait when taking it. This supplement is geared towards bodybuilders ,but I think those that would really benefit are the endurance athletes. It's worth a try if you're sketchy about AAS.

 

[hefty_sack]

What happens to one who has low hemocrit levels to being with, say 31 (perhaps an anemic) for instance, who takes just enough EPO on a weekly basis to attain a levels in the normal range, say 37-45, for an extended period of time (perhaps a year). Will the kidneys resume production and secretion of erythropoietin as they did before the initial administration of EPO or will the production be suppressed, similar to the post-cycle suppression associated with testosterone? Or do the kidneys even stop or slow production of erythropoietin at all while using the exogenous substance? Those who have HIV, cancer, etc... use EPO as a type 1 diabetic uses insulin non-stop for their entire lives, is this correct? If so, what happens if they stop (I'm looking for the consequences associated with terminating EPO usage ignoring the effect of the HIV, cancer, etc...) using it?

 

[road warrior]

EPO and BICYCLE RACING

Hi everyone, Great Post! I'm a fellow endurance athlete and want to share my recommendations for using EPO. Of course you would not use anything like this until you have already taken your abilities to they're natural limits. Training, recovery and diet must already be optimal before you consider using ANY performance enhancing drug.

EPO will help endurance athletes tremendously as it will bump hct. NEVER do EPO without being able to monitor your hct. Never do EPO within two weeks of competition if you are subject to doping contols. EPO effects will last at least 6-8 weeks after completion of the cycle and will have you riding on the "next level" within 3-5 weeks of starting the cycle.

After having personally experienced the benefits of EPO it is not hard to believe why it's the drug of choice for the Pro Peleton. Domestic and Euro...

I saw Demeurj mentioned drugstore.com and when it comes to EPO, they are definitely SCAMMERS and will just charge your credit card without ever attempting to package the product for shipping. My order was allegedly shipped intl frieght. To make a long story short, it never showed and I found out after 6 weeks of harping on them about the whereabouts of my package. Problem is, EPO must be kept refrigerated and drugstore.com has no means of sending a refrigerated parcel. They didn't even know it had to be refrigerated!

Any good pharms currently out there?

Exercise

When using EPO, Excercise Extreme Caution!

the road warrior

 

[MANWHORE]

EPO users just like DNP users,should make sure they keep hydrated during these cycles or your blood will turn into a milkshake... that would suck

 

[road warrior]

EPO users just like DNP users,should make sure they keep hydrated during these cycles or your blood will turn into a milkshake... that would suck

Very true.

Anyone around at the end of these races has already considered hydration a necessary component of winning. I generally drink 1gal/perday whether I'm training or not. For races I'll drink an additional gal for each hour of competition 2 days prior to competition.

In the Spring/Summertime if I have a 4 hour Road Race (approx 100 miles) I will drink at least 4 gals each day for two days before the event whether I'm on E or not. Follow it up the morning of the race with approx 40 oz per hr after waking until 1 hr prior to the start, then 40 oz in 1/2 hr beforehand and start pissin it out... Start drinking within the first 10 minutes of the begining and then it's 40-60 oz per hour on the bike. Once you start working the upper end of the aerobic engine the kidneys almost shut completely down and the urge to urinate subsides.

The average american is partially dehyrdated at all times

road warrior

 

[Maxls]

The publicity is just that . . . pub. Now tons of teams probably have access (and use) stimulants, supplemental oxygenators, and stimulants of hematopoeisis but there's NO way you could ride Giro d'Italia or the Tour de France while going through PCT. If someone says take the AAS/PCT during your peak offseason training then what's the benefit for your events?! It cannot be blood mediated endurance b/c the juxtamedullary apparatus (in the kidneys) regulates EPO secretion. It would be quite surprising if endogenous EPO levels don't fall in response to AAS-induced increases in RBCs. So the RBC boost from gear is likely long gone by the time you finish PCT.

Czech on nandrolone

Some people are just dumb. Why on Earth would you take a mass monster drug like Deca?! Not to mention the fact you will test positive for almost two whole seasons! What idiot would trim his bike down to 20lbs and then bulk up his body?

Loading…

www.theaustralian.news.com.au

EPO, hGH, clen, T3/T4, caffeine, ephedra . . . maybe even Clomid are all fair game for the elite cyclist . . . but gear . . . in particular any amt of Test . . . makes little sense for anyone that wants to ride for a season.

Hello. Can you help me understand how and why T3/T4 is used? Thank you.