50/30/20- who else uses this macronutrient profile for cutting and what do you think

[salvatore_valentino]

hey bros,

with the atkins fad and all it seems that every one is against carbs.
i realize this issue may have been beaten to death but i find a lot of
bros are becoming tired during their workouts because they cut out their carbs to none.

long story short
I was one of those guys who used to do that. i would lose a lot of w8t and look flat. eventually i would get wicked cramps in my legs due to dehydration and within a few months i would start eating massive amounts of carbs and gain a lot of fat because of thebacklash.

what i have been resolving to do
i want to get lean again but without being tired during workouts and without looking flat.
My current diet is the classic 50percent carb, 30 pro and 20 fat.
i lift 6days (day 1 and 4 push muscles, day 2 and 5 pull, day 3 and6 legs and abs) and HIT cardio twice a day (once on an empty and once after weights)
i currently weigh 210 at 18 per bodyfat
the diet is approx 2000 cal, 250-260 carbs, 170 pro and 25 fat (these are all aproximates).
I look to drop 2lbs a week for 15-20 weeks because i want to be a lean 170-165 (5per bodyfat)

what do you guys think of 50-30-20 for cutting.

please share experiences

thanx


ps i realize that i gave to much info than the title of post may have lead the reader to assume this post was about. sorry peace

 

[Bob Smith]

I think your goal of dropping 2 pounds of pure fat per week is on the high side. 1-1.25 lb/wk is a more reasonable and attainable amount without also losing a bunch of muscle.

Personally, I think high carbs isnt a very good way to diet for the majority of people. Instead of going the no-carb route, you could take in 50-100g/day, which would help out with energy levels. A refeed every 6 days and you should be good to go.

 

[Da Bus]

I've run the opposite with good results, 50-30-20 with the 50 as lean protein not carbs. With this ratio I didn't loose as much muscle as I though I might. The carbs were enough to keep my cardio up. And the fats were clean to keep the natural test levels going.
Other than that, your program seems right in line with mine with the exception of resting days.
My workouts typically go 2on-1off-2on-2off. Keep in mind too that your metabolism is ramped up higher and longer by your lifting than your cardio. but if it's working for you, stay with what you've got. But try swapping the carbs for protein in your ratio for a couple of weeks.
I'm not a nutritionist, nor to I pretend to be, it's what works for me though.
just my $.02

 

[Ramstein II]

Welcome to the world of being rational. That’s about what I use. I don’t plan ratios, but do eat basically according to the food pyramid which is a low fat way to eat. I have used that method for getting cut and staying that way for literally years. When maintaining and not really measuring my body fat, I just eat 3 balanced meals a day with 2-3 low fat snacks, such as fruit, or cottage cheese, low fat popcorn, etc... When I want to get leaner I cut the calories down to about 2,000 a day with two days a week of about 2,500 to 3,000 a day to stoke the metabolism. Even while cutting I stay on my balanced diet, I just keep count of calories and eat according to the food pyramid. I may have to eliminate a snack and cut back on portion sizes and replace some food choices with lower fat alternatives (ie. mustard instead of miracle whip, and hold the cheese etc...) To achieve 2000 cals a day. I usually train with weights 4 days a week and walk 30-40 minutes every day on an empty stomach before breakfast. It works very well for me. I’ve achieved very low body fat levels (below 5%) eating this way. Never went into ketosis to get that way and rarely ever felt drained.

 

[Mark Kerr]

So now Keto-Diets are irrational? BTW, I usually use the 40/40/20, no matter bulking or cutting. I just increased/decreased calories as needed. Recently, however, I am starting to read more and more studies that conclude Ketogenic diets are indeed a quicker way to lose weight.

For example, a recent study shows that Ketogenic diets lose WEIGHT at double the rate as high-carb (food pyramid) diets, even at the same amount of calories. It did state, however, that this only occured for the first 4 weeks, and then they lost WEIGHT at the same rate. Interesting new studies are coming out left and right. Its really hard to hide from the facts now.

[MK]

 

[eleven11]

40-40-20 for me , then every 2 weeks I'll decrease my carbs by 200 cals after about the 5th week I'll have a carb load one day a week. 12 weeks to get lean 15 for a show......11

 

[Ramstein II]

So now Keto-Diets are irrational? BTW, I usually use the 40/40/20, no matter bulking or cutting. I just increased/decreased calories as needed. Recently, however, I am starting to read more and more studies that conclude Ketogenic diets are indeed a quicker way to lose weight.

For example, a recent study shows that Ketogenic diets lose fat at DOUBLE the rate as high-carb (food pyramid) diets, even at the same amount of calories. It did state, however, that this only occured for the first 2 weeks, and then they lost fat at the same rate. Interesting new studies are coming out left and right. Its really hard to hide from the facts now.

[MK]

I don't mean to knock CKDs because some people lose a lot of fat that way, and more power to you if you get leaner and healthier. However, IMO it's a tough way to live. I doubt most people would live like that for the rest of their life or even for an extended period of time. Thus, good eating habits may not be developed. That's my perspective. I typically don't like to do for a moment something I can't do for the rest of my life. I have long term goals constantly on my mind as I've found consistency wins the race. To each his own though.

 

[lylemcd]

So now Keto-Diets are irrational? BTW, I usually use the 40/40/20, no matter bulking or cutting. I just increased/decreased calories as needed. Recently, however, I am starting to read more and more studies that conclude Ketogenic diets are indeed a quicker way to lose weight.

For example, a recent study shows that Ketogenic diets lose fat at DOUBLE the rate as high-carb (food pyramid) diets, even at the same amount of calories. It did state, however, that this only occured for the first 2 weeks, and then they lost fat at the same rate. Interesting new studies are coming out left and right. Its really hard to hide from the facts now.

[MK]

Reference for this study?

Lyle
BTW, long-assed article on different dietary approache at my website
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com

11 pages and adresses pros and cons of high, moderate and low carb diets.

 

[Mark Kerr]

Sure, give me a couple of days. I know I read it in Muscular Development, and I think (dont quote me on this) it said it was published in the New England Journal of Medicine.

[MK]

P.S. I am going through my MD's as this is being posted.

 

[Bob Smith]

Reference for this study?

Lyle
BTW, long-assed article on different dietary approache at my website
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com

11 pages and adresses pros and cons of high, moderate and low carb diets.

Cmon Lyle, I thought you could cite references off the top of your head without a problem.

 

[Mark Kerr]

Reference:

Klein S, Romijn JA (2003) Obesity. In: Larson PR, Kronenberg HM, Melmed S, Polonsky KS, eds. Williams Textbook of Endocrinology. Philadelpia: Saunders, pp. 1619-1641.

P.S. I edited my post above to reflect a re-read of the article. This isnt the article I initially remember reading, but it has the same conclusion. Muscular Development, Jan. 2004.

 

[lylemcd]

Reference:

Klein S, Romijn JA (2003) Obesity. In: Larson PR, Kronenberg HM, Melmed S, Polonsky KS, eds. Williams Textbook of Endocrinology. Philadelpia: Saunders, pp. 1619-1641.

P.S. I edited my post above to reflect a re-read of the article. This isnt the article I initially remember reading, but it has the same conclusion. Muscular Development, Jan. 2004.

Except that it is disagreement with the bulk of the research.

Ketogenic diets reliably cause far greater WEIGHT loss during the first week or two, most of which is excess water loss (water can account for anywhere from 1-15 lbs of weight loss in the initial phase of a keto diet). NOT fat loss. Shit, my scrawny butt will drop 7 lbs in the first 3 days of lowcarbs but it's all water.

Additionally, many of hte recent studies which purport to compare keto to non-keto diets are relying on self-food reporting, a technique which is horribly unreliable. IN no study I've ever seen where caloreis are strictly controlled (i.e. usually in a hospital setting with every ounce of food being weighed adn controlled), does a keto diet cause that much greater fat loss (if it shows a greater fat loss at all).

Nor have I seen anything approximating those types of results in the real world and I've been getting feedback on keto diets for years.

Lyle

 

[Ramstein II]

good points Lyle. My take on keto diets is that they are a simple way of causing MOST people to achieve an energy deficit unwittingly. However, ultimately it is energy balance that determines fat loss regardless of macronutrient make up. So why bash keto diets if they "work"? 1. organ damage 2. cancer from high fat intake 3. heart disease from high fat intake 3. muscle loss 4. horrible rebound binge eating and subsequent weight gain. There's 4 reasons. I could name many more. Keto diets are a simple parlor trick IMO. They give people rapid weight loss from water but leave them feeling miserable. Also, they can be dangerous. This fad will pass as problems become more well known. Also, as food companies and restaurants offer more low carb prepared foods, more people will find convenient ways to over eat even without the carbs. It'll be like the 80s low fat days when people thought fat was the evil macronutrient and got fat eating fat free cookies and ice cream. Now people will get fat from cream sauces, cheese, and fatty meat.

It's good that some are willing to have this discussion.

 

[Grizzly]

I've come to like keto diets, but I do agree with you Ramstein. That's what I've always said about them, too(the fooling you into reducing caloric intake part), though I've read things saying that they work even without a caloric restriction. I just find it a bit nicer to follow than the diets I've used in the past.

 

[Mark Kerr]

Yeah, I dont where I stand on the Keto-diet yet either. I am reading more and more articles that are saying people lose more weight (and fat) even with equal calories. Maybe Lyle could shed some more light onto the subject. I am thinking another reason studies say that Keto diets lose more fat is because you become glycogen depleted. So lets say you lose 5 lbs of glucose (from the muscle I mean), and keep all of your muscle tissue (the actual protein), scientists just might assume that 5lbs was fat (because you didnt lose muscle or bone tissue, so it came from somewhere). Could this be plausible Lyle, or am I just sounding like an uneducated moron?

Sometimes I just think overall weight gain is purely thermodynamics (calorie in/calorie out), but how the weight is distributed (as muscle, fat, etc.) depends on macronutrient intake, hormone levels (test, estrogen, insulin, GH, thyroid, etc.), training and genetics. Is this the commonly held belief?

Nutrition is one of those things that I know alot about, but only on the surface (I could design diets and explain why I chose this with people's bodytypes, training, etc. but I really dont know exactly WHY). For example, I have noticed that for me, if I eat about the same amount of protein as carbs, while eating only essential fats, I can bulk or cut just by changing the calories and nothing more. I put on muscle fast while I bulk and I dont bloat or put on tons of fat. I take fat off very quickly without getting tired from my weights and cardio. If I eat a high carb diet, I put on fat easily and I feel lethargic. If I eat a low-carb diet (like I am now), then I feel like I get small quickly and I get a slight euphoria (after 3-4 days that is. Getting into ketosis is literally painful however, but once I am there I feel great).

I wonder if anyone else notices this or if I am just a nut. Let me know.

[MK]

 

[Grizzly]

I'm pretty much the same, Mark. If I eat a 40-40-20 diet, I put on muscle quickly and relatively little bf. Theoretically, I could stay damn lean and gain an appreciable amount of muscle, but after 8 weeks or so, the diet starts to slip a bit.

It starts with the one time a week trip to the chinese buffet. Next thing you know, Hooters is calling my name on a Tuesday. On Wednesday I'm tired of eating for the day, so it's a couple PBJ sandwhiches and all the milk I can fit in right before bed. Oh shit, now it's hot outside and there's a barbeque, which is code for a little bit of meat and a whole hell of a lot of beer. Damn, now I'm single. Looks like it's time to hit the bars. Oh fuck! I'm hungover and that key lime pie is calling my name and so is his little friend the half gallon of icecream. And so on and so on.

WRT ketosis, I doesn't really bother me either. I almost feel like I'm doing something wrong. I don't even notice much fatigue.

For instance, tonight was my first day back to training since my last fight.(MMA training, not weight training.) I did 5 minutes on the focus mitts piece of cake. Of course, on my "off days" I go to the gym and work the heavy bag, so that could account for that. Then, we drilled for 15 minutes and then went "live". I spent 20 minutes going live and it wasn't that hard at all. Granted, two of the guys were too small and not that good and I'm way too strong for the other guy, but I didn't really get that tired at all. I felt pretty good, really. Oh, what I wouldn't give for a couple of talented 240-300lb training partners.

 

[salvatore_valentino]

not to get of subject of 50 30 20 vs ckd but what is the consensus of the one day in crease in carbs to trick your metabolism.

i 've read that it has to do with tricking your body to release leptin but the guy who wrote the article was also owner of a company that sells a leptin suplement and he didn't have a study to reference it (the article was titled cheat to lose and it was in the m and f with ronnie on the cover and it said i am the world's largest man).

please share experiences

and again i apoligize if this misdirects the dialogue that is taking place right now.

thanx

 

[Grizzly]

The carb up on a CKD is madatory. Hell, without a carb up, you're just running a KD as opposed to a CKD. Wait 'til Bob finds this. He'll give you all the reasons. Or Lyle.

 

[Bob Smith]

Leptin is already very high in fat people. Similar to insulin resistance, the people end up becoming leptin resistent. From the little Ive paid attention to leptin, as people diet and get leaner, leptin drops like a rock. Especially at sub10% bodyfat. A refeed on a CKD has to do with a lot more than just leptin. Other hormones are affected as well.

Lyle is by far the best one to answer this if you want specifics.

P.S. One thing I did pick up from Lyle was that attempting to manipulate leptin through nutritional means is not very effective at all. Leptin injections on the other hand...are way too expensive.

 

[lylemcd]

good points Lyle. My take on keto diets is that they are a simple way of causing MOST people to achieve an energy deficit unwittingly. However, ultimately it is energy balance that determines fat loss regardless of macronutrient make up. So why bash keto diets if they "work"? 1. organ damage

Epileptic children arae kept in deep ketossi for 3+ years, zero evidence of this.

2. cancer from high fat intake

Far more to cancer than fat intake: it's a multi-factorial disease. Stress, smoking, exercise, obesity, fat, sugar, and a lot of other things contribute to cancer. Blaming it on fat is moronic. And explain facts ilke France and Mediterranean cultures that have less cancer than we do despite a high fat intake. Also quality of fat plays a huge role.

3. heart disease from high fat intake

Same comments as for #2. Recent studies show that even 1 week on a keto diet LOWERS markers of heart disease risk, especially in obese hyperinsulinemic individuals.

3. muscle loss 4.

Hence the CKD.

horrible rebound binge eating and subsequent weight gain.

Which occur on every other diet too.

So none of your criticisms has an ouce of validity in the first place.

There's 4 reasons. I could name many more. Keto diets are a simple parlor trick IMO. They give people rapid weight loss from water but leave them feeling miserable. Also, they can be dangerous.

Yeah, you listed all the typical bullshit criticisms that I've seen for years and that ahve zero validity but nothing more than that.

When you get some real criticisms or read some actual data, wake me up.

Lyle