Blood Pressure

Of course everyone's entitled to their opinion, drawn from their experience etc.

However, every set of hypertension treatment guidelines from medical organizations. which are updated based on evidence every few years, have increasingly discouraged use of beta blockers and reserve them as a last resort for treatment resistant hypertension, because of the negative consequences associated with their use(more strokes, being the primary reason).

TLDR the steps are currently in the order of:

ACE/ARB + Calcium channel blocker minimum doses.

Increase doses of one or both to maximum tolerable if bp not at target.

If still not at target, add diuretic.

Finally, if still not working add a Beta Blocker.






View attachment 313597View attachment 313601
I also agree with everything you said in your post about BP, and it bothers me when people act like a systolic BP of 130 all the time is somehow acceptable. Ideally, we can get that down to 110 as long as we don’t crush our diastolic BP number, which is optimal at 70-80 for reducing all cause mortality risk.

I look at lowering systolic BP the same way I look at lowering ApoB/LDL. Why settle for an LDL of 100 when you can get it down to 50?

The only thing I’ll nitpick is that I think Nebivolol (but no other beta blocker) is a better choice than Amlodipine only if someone also wants to reduce their resting heart rate, which is usually higher on AAS. I realize it’s against the guidelines, but I think there are exceptions for bodybuilders in many cases. Can’t go wrong either way though.
 
@Ghoul
You say everything above 120/70 is considered elevated yet the flowchart classifies the patient as hypertensive when above 150/90.
When do US cardiologists prescribe BP meds to otherwise healthy individuals?

Both my cardiologist and my GP didn't want to put me on meds when I averaged 135/75 during the day. That's was in the past.

Meanwhile I was prescribed 80 mg Telmisartan ED.
I'll ask my doc next time why he preferred high dose sartan over mid dose and a CCB.

Located in Europe btw.
80mg of Telmisartan doesn’t reduce BP dramatically compared to 40mg, however, you get additional PPAR benefits (insulin) at the higher dose and possibly more dementia protection. Just check the potassium.
 
80mg of Telmisartan doesn’t reduce BP dramatically compared to 40mg, however, you get additional PPAR benefits (insulin) at the higher dose and possibly more dementia protection. Just check the potassium.

This is exactly correct. ARBs don't have a much stronger effect from minimum to maximum doses. But add in that second compound, usually a low dose CCB, and it's like 1+1=4 in terms of BP reduction.
 
This is exactly correct. ARBs don't have a much stronger effect from minimum to maximum doses. But add in that second compound, usually a low dose CCB, and it's like 1+1=4 in terms of BP reduction.
That is something I didn’t know. I’ve stopped taking ARBs because of lackluster impact, gonna dig in to that
 
That is something I didn’t know. I’ve stopped taking ARBs because of lackluster impact, gonna dig in to that

For instance, a reasonably representative result I pulled from a study:

Max dose Telm vs Max dose Amlodipine vs low dose single pill combo.

Starting BP 153/94

8 weeks later: END BP(reduction)

Telmisartan 80mg 133/77 (20/17)

Amlodipine 10mg 140/83 (13/11)

Telm/Aml 40mg/5mg 126/75 (28/19)

Lowest rate of sides with the combo.

Combo also available as
40/10
80/5
80/10
 
Last edited:
For instance, a reasonably representative result I pulled from a study:

Max dose Telm vs Max dose Amlodipine vs low dose single pill combo.

Starting BP 153/94

8 weeks later: END BP(reduction)

Telmisartan 80mg 133/77 (20/17)

Amlodipine 10mg 140/83 (13/11)

Telm/Aml 40mg/5mg 126/75 (28/19)

Lowest rate of sides with the combo.

Combo also available as
40/10
80/5
80/10
I wish there was a 20/5 combo. I just take them both separately.
 
That is something I didn’t know. I’ve stopped taking ARBs because of lackluster impact, gonna dig in to that

Separate is fine ofc, the combos (including 3 and recently 4 category "ultra low dose") single pill combos are mainly about compliance. .

The 2024 guidance from the US and EU cardiology associations now recommend starting with a 2 low dose combo, because the results are so much better over the long term. Fewer sides = more compliance, and they simply result in fewer heart attacks and strokes.

Something like 60% don't stick to their BP meds even for a year, single pills make it more likely they'll keep taking it

They also found if the shape changes, like it often does when drug stores change generic brands, 20% of users drop out. If the color changes, 30% stop taking it, and if both change, 60% of formerly compliant patients stop. .
 
Last edited:
I also agree with everything you said in your post about BP, and it bothers me when people act like a systolic BP of 130 all the time is somehow acceptable. Ideally, we can get that down to 110 as long as we don’t crush our diastolic BP number, which is optimal at 70-80 for reducing all cause mortality risk.

I look at lowering systolic BP the same way I look at lowering ApoB/LDL. Why settle for an LDL of 100 when you can get it down to 50?

The only thing I’ll nitpick is that I think Nebivolol (but no other beta blocker) is a better choice than Amlodipine only if someone also wants to reduce their resting heart rate, which is usually higher on AAS. I realize it’s against the guidelines, but I think there are exceptions for bodybuilders in many cases. Can’t go wrong either way though.
I also agree with what you said in the last few sentences. Going against guidelines may work for some individuals.

For example I have great success combining both an ARB and ACE even though the guidelines say to choose on or the other.
 
I also agree with what you said in the last few sentences. Going against guidelines may work for some individuals.

For example I have great success combining both an ARB and ACE even though the guidelines say to choose on or the other.

( Note for clarity: ARB/ACE are the same "class" of BP med. They relax the same blood vessels.)

First it's great to keep your BP In check. Without any doubt it's the easiest, "low hanging fruit", you can control that will make a difference to your long term health. High BP isn't just about heart attack and strokes, but the health of every organ.

Most people fail to do this. Most primary care doctors don't take it seriously enough. That's the theme you hear from top cardiologists year after year.

The reason the Cardiology associations have been moving to combo low dose multi-class treatment isn't just to get to the number though.

Even with the same BP reduction achieved with one class of BP drug, using 2 or more classes results in fewer heart attacks, strokes, less kidney failure, etc.

So it's not purely about lowering BP. The long term results are superior when 2 classes are used, In fact more recently, 3 classes shows even better results, and 4 even more so. There's pressure on the drug companies to develop ultra-low dose 4 class BP tablets for this reason. (you have to lower the dose of each med as they're added to the combination, with four classes requiring microdoses of each)

Each of these classes reduces blood pressure in different parts of the body, so getting to 120/70 by relaxing a larger area of blood vessels less (using low dose multiple classes), delivers better results than relaxing a more limited amount of vessels more, the way a single class, like ARB/ACE (or any single class BP med) would, even though they could both deliver 120/70.

"For people already on the combination(ARB/ACE) and stable, clinicians need to consider that prescribing just one of the two reduces cardiovascular events to the same extent and that **other therapeutic regimes have the potential to reduce cardiovascular events** and blood pressure to a greater degree."

 
Last edited:
( Note for clarity: ARB/ACE are the same "class" of BP med. They relax the same blood vessels.)

First it's great to keep your BP In check. Without any doubt it's the easiest, "low hanging fruit", you can control that will make a difference to your long term health. High BP isn't just about heart attack and strokes, but the health of every organ.

Most people fail to do this. Most primary care doctors don't take it seriously enough. That's the theme you hear from top cardiologists year after year.

The reason the Cardiology associations have been moving to combo low dose multi-class treatment isn't just to get to the number though.

Even with the same BP reduction achieved with one class of BP drug, using 2 or more classes results in fewer heart attacks, strokes, less kidney failure, etc.

So it's not purely about lowering BP. The long term results are superior when 2 classes are used, In fact more recently, 3 classes shows even better results, and 4 even more so. There's pressure on the drug companies to develop ultra-low dose 4 class BP tablets for this reason. (you have to lower the dose of each med as they're added to the combination, with four classes requiring microdoses of each)

Each of these classes reduces blood pressure in different parts of the body, so getting to 120/70 by relaxing a larger area of blood vessels less (using low dose multiple classes), delivers better results than relaxing a more limited amount of vessels more, the way a single class, like ARB/ACE (or any single class BP med) would, even though they could both deliver 120/70.

"For people already on the combination(ARB/ACE) and stable, clinicians need to consider that prescribing just one of the two reduces cardiovascular events to the same extent and that **other therapeutic regimes have the potential to reduce cardiovascular events** and blood pressure to a greater degree."

Yup I've read that PDF before and also a few others studies and that's what lead me to experimenting with combining both and ARB and ACE.
 
80mg of Telmisartan doesn’t reduce BP dramatically compared to 40mg, however, you get additional PPAR benefits (insulin) at the higher dose and possibly more dementia protection. Just check the potassium.
Let me add a reference to this post since I was too lazy to do it when I first posted it.

It’s clear that you need 80mg for all the insulin benefits. 40mg isn’t going to have the PPAR and adiponectin benefits.

 
Let me add a reference to this post since I was too lazy to do it when I first posted it.

It’s clear that you need 80mg for all the insulin benefits. 40mg isn’t going to have the PPAR and adiponectin benefits.


Luckily the difference between BP reduction at 40mg and 80mg is minimal.

9-13/6-8 mmHg for 40 mg
12-13/7-8 mmHg for 80 mg

So going to 80mg, for the PPAR activation, will drop pressure just slightly or not at all, making it a practical option for those seeking the added benefits.

IMG_0467.webp
 
I'm not too excited about the PPARg effects of telmisartan (and candesartan). PPARg stimulates adipogenesis (the formation of new fat cells).

The antidiabetic effects of PPARg agonists are thought to be at least in part due to adipogenesis, shifting ectopic fat storage (like in liver) to new subcutaneous fat cells (this contributes to the adiponectin effect, which further contributes to insulin sensitization of adipocytes).

ARBs are good anti-hypertensives but in a bodybuilding context when we're trying to keep body fat low, if you have other options, I'd consider them as well. Eg, lowest dose ARB + nebivolol amlodipine etc
 
I'm not too excited about the PPARg effects of telmisartan (and candesartan). PPARg stimulates adipogenesis (the formation of new fat cells).

The antidiabetic effects of PPARg agonists are thought to be at least in part due to adipogenesis, shifting ectopic fat storage (like in liver) to new subcutaneous fat cells (this contributes to the adiponectin effect, which further contributes to insulin sensitization of adipocytes).

ARBs are good anti-hypertensives but in a bodybuilding context when we're trying to keep body fat low, if you have other options, I'd consider them as well. Eg, lowest dose ARB + nebivolol amlodipine etc
Yea, we can take other things like Empagliflozin or Acarbose/Metformin for insulin benefits. And of course a GLP1.

Telmisartan does appear to have unique anti dementia benefits that other ARB’s don’t have though. It could be due to the PPAR effect.
 
Yea, we can take other things like Empagliflozin or Acarbose/Metformin for insulin benefits. And of course a GLP1.

Telmisartan does appear to have unique anti dementia benefits that other ARB’s don’t have though. It could be due to the PPAR effect.

Agree. In that study, looks like there was a significantly increased use of benzo's in the non-telmisartan ARB group. Possible confound.

We all want long-term health but my comment was about bodybuilding & maintaining low body fat. Many options for blood pressure control and other lifestyle habits for preserving long-term health.

Disclaimer: an ARB (candesartan) is part of the combo I'm prescribed for blood pressure.
 
I'm not too excited about the PPARg effects of telmisartan (and candesartan). PPARg stimulates adipogenesis (the formation of new fat cells).

The antidiabetic effects of PPARg agonists are thought to be at least in part due to adipogenesis, shifting ectopic fat storage (like in liver) to new subcutaneous fat cells (this contributes to the adiponectin effect, which further contributes to insulin sensitization of adipocytes).

ARBs are good anti-hypertensives but in a bodybuilding context when we're trying to keep body fat low, if you have other options, I'd consider them as well. Eg, lowest dose ARB + nebivolol amlodipine etc
GH will prevent subq fat storage.
 
I wonder if telmisartan's metabolic benefits can be observed in healthy subjects? Like non obese, young(ish) bodybuilders.

Obviously there is (almost?) zero reason to run studies on them.

Is anyone here who claims telmisartan improved anything besides BP?
 
Telmisartan controls blood pressure better and longer than any other drug in its class, especially during the critical early morning hours, when there's a surge in BP. This reduces the risk of cardiovascular events and organ damage more than others, which is the reason for controlling BP.

In this huge "meta study of meta studies", the effects of Telm at 40mg, as a partial PPAR agonist are very impressive. If you can slog through this paper, I think you'll agree.

 
I'm not too excited about the PPARg effects of telmisartan (and candesartan). PPARg stimulates adipogenesis (the formation of new fat cells).

The antidiabetic effects of PPARg agonists are thought to be at least in part due to adipogenesis, shifting ectopic fat storage (like in liver) to new subcutaneous fat cells (this contributes to the adiponectin effect, which further contributes to insulin sensitization of adipocytes).

ARBs are good anti-hypertensives but in a bodybuilding context when we're trying to keep body fat low, if you have other options, I'd consider them as well. Eg, lowest dose ARB + nebivolol amlodipine etc

The only impact on fat distribution from Telm I can find is a significant reduction in visceral fat, no change in subcutaneous fat, and an overall anti-obesity effect.


I am getting the impression that unless you're trying to control glucose, it's better to stick with 40mg Telm than 80mg. A little PPAR agonism is good but more may not be.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top