wtf is wrong with so many Muslims?!

[oldtimer]

I believe the entire bible to be true..all 100 % of it..Jesus as gods son was sent to earth to atone for our sins..we are called to accept that...john 3 : 16 For god so loved the world that he sent his only son so that all who believe in him shall be saved...old timer..if you are alive when jesus returns you will be put through trial and tribulation..hopefully you will see the prophecy long written has come to pass and accept Christ as yuour saviour...if you die before this time and still reject him ..yes..you will go to hell.

See that's the thing, I too believe that Jesus would return, but I don't believe that he's been crucified nor that God would have a son (if he had a son at least he would be from the same type, not a human being).

 

[van-man]

See that's the thing, I too believe that Jesus would return, but I don't believe that he's been crucified nor that God would have a son (if he had a son at least he would be from the same type, not a human being).

Then what would be the point of his return? And how would he return, if he was not of God?

 

[oldtimer]

Then what would be the point of his return? And how would he return, if he was not of God?

He would return to fix the wrongs in this world and kill the anti-christ. At the time of his return the world would be a dark place and he would lead the army against the anti-christ. We as Muslims are required to follow him when he's back. We're told about signs that would prove that he's Jesus.

Once he kills the anti-christ, a series of wars would happen, then the world would finally come to peace, and he would rule the world for 40 years, after that Judgement day would begin (Judgement day is not actually just a day, but its years).

Just as god brought Adam and Eve to this world, from the heavens, god can take anyone he wants back to the heavens (what he did with Jesus to protect him from the crucification), and he can bring Jesus back here just as he brought Adam and Eve.

The difference between your belief and mine is that you believe that Jesus was crucified, while I believe that god protected him, and made the person who lead for his crucification look exactly like him in front of the people at the time of crucification, and the person who was crucified was the person who wanted to crucify Jesus.

 

[Grizzly]

You're all retarded.

 

[van-man]

He would return to fix the wrongs in this world and kill the anti-christ. At the time of his return the world would be a dark place and he would lead the army against the anti-christ. We as Muslims are required to follow him when he's back. We're told about signs that would prove that he's Jesus.

Once he kills the anti-christ, a series of wars would happen, then the world would finally come to peace, and he would rule the world for 40 years, after that Judgement day would begin (Judgement day is not actually just a day, but its years).

Just as god brought Adam and Eve to this world, from the heavens, god can take anyone he wants back to the heavens (what he did with Jesus to protect him from the crucification), and he can bring Jesus back here just as he brought Adam and Eve.

The difference between your belief and mine is that you believe that Jesus was crucified, while I believe that god protected him, and made the person who lead for his crucification look exactly like him in front of the people at the time of crucification, and the person who was crucified was the person who wanted to crucify Jesus.

gotcha. You guys put Him in the same class as Elijah and Abraham... Interesting.

You know, you're the first muslim that I've discussed this with that could utilize the english language adequately... Makes things easier I must say.

Now back on topic, How do muslims deal with the account of the crucification as told in the Gospels of the bible? And the resurection?

 

[van-man]

You're all retarded.

shut up... you've taken way more punches to the head than I have

 

[oldtimer]

You're all retarded.

I was actually waiting for a similar comment from you grizz, why am I not surprised

 

[oldtimer]

gotcha. You guys put Him in the same class as Elijah and Abraham... Interesting.

You know, you're the first muslim that I've discussed this with that could utilize the english language adequately... Makes things easier I must say.

Now back on topic, How do muslims deal with the account of the crucification as told in the Gospels of the bible? And the resurection?

We believe that the bible has been altered, and that the original bible never spoke about Jesus being crucified.

The only Christian sect that we believe has it almost all right is the unitarians. I don't think that they exist today (I've heard of a modern liberal protestant sect saying that they follow the beliefs of the old unitarians, but I haven't read much about them).

 

[van-man]

The only Christian sect that we believe has it almost all right is the unitarians. I don't think that they exist today (I've heard of a modern liberal protestant sect saying that they follow the beliefs of the old unitarians, but I haven't read much about them).

Yeah, those are the only ones left. There is a unitarian church not too far from where I live and its filled with homosexuals and transexuals and the like. Nothing that either one of our groups wants to deal with I had a conversation with a unitarian not too long ago, and it seems that they have combined some protestant style worship with some weird zen / free spiritual energy hybrid.
A bunch of hippie crap if you ask me...

We believe that the bible has been altered, and that the original bible never spoke about Jesus being crucified.

This is the part I struggle with. How can that claim succeed if the account of the crucification as told in the Christian Bible preceeds your Prophet by nearly 600 years?

I'm only putting you through this whole Q&A session because I want to get around to hearing your thoughts on how Islam got twisted into so many conflicting sects. From my perspective, Islam, in its current state, is a good analogy to what Christianity would be like if it were overrun by sects/cults like the Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, etc.

 

[Desibaba]

Organized religion (Islam,Christianity and Judaism) are pretty much fairytales in my opinion.If you look closely its obvious all three started out from the same tree as the beliefs in a supreme being,prophets etc are pretty much the same.

Muslims and Christians differ in the way that christians feel jesus was the son of god while muslims think he was merely a prophet.

Fine some guy got a cross shoved up his ass a thousand years ago.Well boo fucking hoo.Sucks for him.But does that automatically make him the son of god?
Fine the man did some "miracles" but considering how naive humans are even today i bet it wasnt too hard to convince them back in the day.

Mark my words religion is the biggest curse the human race has brought onto itself.We have caused more killing and bloodshed in the name of religion compared to any disease or disaster ever.

Try to live your life in a good way and be good to those who are good to you and fuck those who fuck you in any way shape or form.I live my life this way and you know what i sleep peacefully at night.

You dont need Jesus,Mohammad,Allah,God or any of these other assholes to tell you how to live your life

 

[van-man]

Organized religion (Islam,Christianity and Judaism) are pretty much fairytales in my opinion.If you look closely its obvious all three started out from the same tree as the beliefs in a supreme being,prophets etc are pretty much the same.

Muslims and Christians differ in the way that christians feel jesus was the son of god while muslims think he was merely a prophet.

Fine some guy got a cross shoved up his ass a thousand years ago.Well boo fucking hoo.Sucks for him.But does that automatically make him the son of god?
Fine the man did some "miracles" but considering how naive humans are even today i bet it wasnt too hard to convince them back in the day.

Mark my words religion is the biggest curse the human race has brought onto itself.We have caused more killing and bloodshed in the name of religion compared to any disease or disaster ever.

Try to live your life in a good way and be good to those who are good to you and fuck those who fuck you in any way shape or form.I live my life this way and you know what i sleep peacefully at night.
You dont need Jesus,Mohammad,Allah,God or any of these other assholes to tell you how to live your life

Liar. Everytime God is even mentioned you post up this typical rant we see here. I would venture to say that your hatred of God consumes you. If you really believed what you say then you wouldn't feel compelled to make posts like this.

 

[Desibaba]

Liar. Everytime God is even mentioned you post up this typical rant we see here. I would venture to say that your hatred of God consumes you. If you really believed what you say then you wouldn't feel compelled to make posts like this.

Okay look at it like this.All the major religions believe god is a entity that sits up there and watches us.Really? According to Islam and christianity god ALREADY knows what will happen in the future.So why are we here being subjected to this test?
He knows who is good,who is evil etc etc then he should send the good to heaven and the evil to hell RIGHT NOW right? Secondly if this entity really exists then what created him???
Look its a free country and if you want to believe in this garbage then thats your choice to make.But that still doesnt mean its true.While you guys are at it you should believe in the tooth fairy,elves and unicorns too

 

[van-man]

Okay look at it like this.All the major religions believe god is a entity that sits up there and watches us.Really? According to Islam and christianity god ALREADY knows what will happen in the future.So why are we here being subjected to this test?
He knows who is good,who is evil etc etc then he should send the good to heaven and the evil to hell RIGHT NOW right?

If you believe in free will, then you must understand the importance of God's abstinence. Many skeptics seem to think that Gods omniscience undercuts the possibility of free will. But this is not necessarily the case.
Just because a being knows the outcome of the actions of a free being, it doesn't make him responsible for that outcome. The free being that engaged in the act bears the responsibility. Just like a child riding circles in the driveway on his bicycle with his shoe untied. If we were to step outside and observe the situation, immediately we would recognize the eventual outcome due to our superior knowledge and experience. If we chose to swoop in and snatch the child from the bike before he became entangled, then he would most likely resent us for ruining his good time since he doesn't understand what was about to happen to him. And if we were to let him fall and then come over to help him get back up and understand why that happened, then he would resent us for not stopping it from happening, again from his lack of understanding. In this second option is where you would fall, along with majority of mankind at one time or another. The first option however, simply isn't possible. For one it would not accomplish Gods goal for us (man), which is to live life freely and in doing so come to know and understand Him. And two, it would make free will unnecessary. If God were to step in and reveal Himself in an undeniable manner, then it would become impossible for free will to exist. Simply put, our will cannot exist in the presence of God. Think about it this way, when you are standing on a ledge you cannot choose to walk off that ledge and not fall. The will of gravity is far more powerful than your own. God is a force far more powerful than all of the natural forces combined. So, he must abstain for us to exist. And I would like to exist for just a while longer.

Secondly if this entity really exists then what created him???
Look its a free country and if you want to believe in this garbage then thats your choice to make.But that still doesnt mean its true.While you guys are at it you should believe in the tooth fairy,elves and unicorns too

This infinite regress argument about the "creation of God" is a simple minded and lame attempt by skeptics to deny God's supremacy. It is simple minded because the very notion is bound by the conception of time. This whole ordered thinking is a temporal trait. "This came first and that came second" cannot be said of things that are not bound by the constraints of time. The reply to that question is quite simple, "God is."

 

[Grizzly]

I was actually waiting for a similar comment from you grizz, why am I not surprised

I wouldn't want to disappoint you

 

[oldtimer]

This is the part I struggle with. How can that claim succeed if the account of the crucification as told in the Christian Bible preceeds your Prophet by nearly 600 years?

I'm only putting you through this whole Q&A session because I want to get around to hearing your thoughts on how Islam got twisted into so many conflicting sects. From my perspective, Islam, in its current state, is a good analogy to what Christianity would be like if it were overrun by sects/cults like the Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, etc.

We blieve that the biggest test the Christians had been put in was witnissing what looked like the crucification of Jesus. I believe that many (the majority?) of the Christians who witnessed it wanted to believe something else, they were basically in denial, they didn't want to believe that God abandoned his prophet, so when one of them came up with the story that he was the son of God and he did that to wash away the sins of the humans, they immidiately believed it because they wanted to believe that his death did not go in vein, they wanted mental peace.

Mohammad then later came and said that Jesus was not crucified, that god has protected him and has taken him to the heavens, so god did not abandon him.

The two big sects in Islam are the Sunnis and the Shiat, the Shiat basically have a faith similar to Christians of today, but not the same in terms of God/son relationship. When Ali (4th caliph and the cousin of the prophet) was killed, some Muslims felt so bad for what happened and they became the Shiat (or Shia'ah) of Ali, and they held him in a very high place from that time on (that is why the Shiat, one day in every year go out in the streets and start whipping themselves and shedding their own blood, it's the day that Ali was killed, like they are punishing themselves for it).

I personally believe that they have gone too far with their belief, and they started writing stories and teachings that they want to believe in, to make them feel better about what heppened to Ali. At least this is what I think they're doing (comforting themselves by saying that he was the chosen one and he was killed to protect us etc.).

 

[van-man]

We blieve that the biggest test the Christians had been put in was witnissing what looked like the crucification of Jesus. I believe that many (the majority?) of the Christians who witnessed it wanted to believe something else, they were basically in denial, they didn't want to believe that God abandoned his prophet, so when one of them came up with the story that he was the son of God and he did that to wash away the sins of the humans, they immidiately believed it because they wanted to believe that his death did not go in vein, they wanted mental peace.

Mohammad then later came and said that Jesus was not crucified, that god has protected him and has taken him to the heavens, so god did not abandon him.

The two big sects in Islam are the Sunnis and the Shiat, the Shiat basically have a faith similar to Christians of today, but not the same in terms of God/son relationship. When Ali (4th caliph and the cousin of the prophet) was killed, some Muslims felt so bad for what happened and they became the Shiat (or Shia'ah) of Ali, and they held him in a very high place from that time on (that is why the Shiat, one day in every year go out in the streets and start whipping themselves and shedding their own blood, it's the day that Ali was killed, like they are punishing themselves for it).

I personally believe that they have gone too far with their belief, and they started writing stories and teachings that they want to believe in, to make them feel better about what heppened to Ali. At least this is what I think they're doing (comforting themselves by saying that he was the chosen one and he was killed to protect us etc.).

This is good stuff herer OT, thanks. Its always beneficial to know how the other half lives.

What do you think about the extremist groups (sects) causing all the problems these days?
Are they viewed in the same light by muslims that we protestants look at cults like Warren Jeffs version of the mormon church?

 

[oldtimer]

That is a good question. Whenever you ask people in the streets, or when you ask Muslim clerks, they always say it's against the teachings of religion etc., yet, you see people blowing things up and killing day in and day out. Does this mean that I've never run into one of these fanatics myself?, no, it means that we have a lot of hypocracy going on. These people will wear masks pretending to be all peace loving, but under the covers they will be planning all sorts of crimes.

I know that at least myself and the people around me (family and friends) are so against this, not only is it against religion, it's also against our message in this life, the message to tell people how to know god and worship him. Terrorists doing these acts are driving away from Islam, which defeats the whole purpose of what they claim to be doing (Islam should prevail).

The biggest danger that Islam faces is its own people these days.

 

[van-man]

That is a good question. Whenever you ask people in the streets, or when you ask Muslim clerks, they always say it's against the teachings of religion etc., yet, you see people blowing things up and killing day in and day out. Does this mean that I've never run into one of these fanatics myself?, no, it means that we have a lot of hypocracy going on. These people will wear masks pretending to be all peace loving, but under the covers they will be planning all sorts of crimes.

I know that at least myself and the people around me (family and friends) are so against this, not only is it against religion, it's also against our message in this life, the message to tell people how to know god and worship him. Terrorists doing these acts are driving away from Islam, which defeats the whole purpose of what they claim to be doing (Islam should prevail).

The biggest danger that Islam faces is its own people these days.

That is exactly what I thought. These people deface the name of Islam just the same way the KKK defaces the name of Christianity.


So there we have it, after over a hundred posts, oldtimer and I have agreed that what is wrong with muslims these days, is that they aren't real muslims... just terrorists dragging a good name through the mud.