Why do I hate unions?

[Grizzly]

This is taken from the newsfront section of Playboy.

"East Haven, Connecticut- Mayor Joe Maturo is a handy guy, so when he saw that a storm grate had fallen into a sewer, he stepped down to retrieve it. "It took three minutes," he said. The municipal workers' union filed a grievance, saying its contract requires that four workers- a laborer, dispatcher, driver and foreman- be called in for the job at four overtime hours each."

Worthless fuckers!

 

[Kayz]

Here is another reason to hate unions, which are worthless and only function to drive up prices.


CARLISLE, Pa. - Pennsylvania Turnpike managers began collecting tolls early Thanksgiving Day as the first strike in the turnpike's 64-year history entered its second day.

The managers had anticipated a walkout by about 2,000 collectors, maintenance workers and office employees so they waived tolls all day Wednesday. The waiver was expected to be cost an estimated $1.7 million to $2 million in lost revenue.


Just after midnight, nearly 400 managers began collecting $2 per car and $15 per commercial vehicle. Normally, the toll varies by distance, but the flat rate based on the average tolls was charged to prevent backups at the toll plazas.


The Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission planned to bring in temporary workers to collect tolls along with the managers, who were putting in 12-hour shifts.


The main cause of the strike was a management proposal to allow layoffs as the three-year pact expired, union spokesman Ken Zawacki said.


Turnpike chief executive Joe Brimmeier said Teamsters locals 77 and 250 were making unrealistic demands regarding work rules. The commission offered senior toll takers a 40-cent-an-hour raise each year to about $21 at the end of the three-year pact, he said.


Teamsters set up pickets along turnpike exits and asked trucker members to avoid taking the highway. Two tractor-trailers briefly blocked one interchange until tow trucks arrived, then started up and drove away.


The striking employees have been working without a contract for 14 months. Eighty percent of the workers are in job classifications that earn, with overtime, nearly $50,000 a year, Brimmeier said.


No further talks have been scheduled




$21/hour to sit on your fat ass and press a button to raise a gate....what a fucking waste.

 

[Grizzly]

I'm in the wrong profession. If the story I heard was true, then I won't be seeing 21/hr anytime in the near future.

 

[mrc0703]

my buddy is a NY electricians union top pay is at 43 hr now tack on some OT at time and a half ....and every once and a while a sunday at double time....hes bring home some check

 

[jbiggs]

A couple of reasons off the top of my head....

1) Do not promote hard work only seniority to move forward in your profession.

2) One of the Main causes of inflation in America.

3) Pawn of the Democratic party.

4) They do little or nothing to help workers....When I was in college I drove fork-lift at a "closed shop." I was a temp so the Union could provide me no benefits, but still took $250.00 a month from my paycheck for dues!

 

[Beefy]

I don't care much for unions, either, but I would if I were an employee of a company and my job duties required me to be highly specialized in training/job skills. In that case, a union is the only way to go because it protects the worker from being fucked by the wealthy company owners. This does require the help of the government at times to be most effective, but the government does a pretty good job of playing both sides of the card by keeping the rich rich and the working class distracted.

As an entrepreneur, I hate unions because they force people like me to pay employees close to what they are actually worth. Grizz, no offense, but you won't ever be paid what you're actually worth unless you are self employeed. You will get closer, though, if you can manage to join a union for your field of employment. There probably isn't a union for your job, because enough capitalists got together and worked the polititians to create laws that foster an economical environment that prevents the formation of unions. Without unions, workers are forced to adapt to the employers changing demands. That's why now you can't get a decent job without a college degree (unless it's a union job), but 40 years ago you could live very comfortably and not even graduate high school. If the masses only understood how badly they are getting fucked by the elite wealth in this country they would stop helping the process along.

Unions are a dying breed, and I don't even want to think about how scary it would be to be working for someone else everyday hoping that my job will be there for me from one year to the next. That's the situation you're in if you're not in a union. Unless, of course, you are a business owner. Then you have a different attitude about unions all together. All in all, I agree with you, though; unions do suck.

 

[Kayz]

As an entrepreneur, I hate unions because they force people like me to pay employees close to what they are actually worth. Grizz, no offense, but you won't ever be paid what you're actually worth unless you are self employeed. You will get closer, though, if you can manage to join a union for your field of employment. There probably isn't a union for your job, because enough capitalists got together and worked the polititians to create laws that foster an economical environment that prevents the formation of unions. Without unions, workers are forced to adapt to the employers changing demands. That's why now you can't get a decent job without a college degree (unless it's a union job), but 40 years ago you could live very comfortably and not even graduate high school. If the masses only understood how badly they are getting fucked by the elite wealth in this country they would stop helping the process along.

.

I could not disagree with this more. How can you say that unions force employers to pay people "close to what they are actually worth?" Do you honestly believe that a toll booth worker is WORTH $21/hr??? do you honestly believe that an employee of GM who does zero skilled labor is worth $26/hr??? Come on bro, all unions do is protect the jobs of lazy pieces of shit who otherwise would be out of a job because they don't work.

I read in Kiplinger a few months ago that on EVERY car that GM makes, $4000 of the sticker price goes to cover the benefit packages of the GM employees. $4000!!!!!

I live in the mecca of union industries, and all the union workers in my area do is fucking bitch bitch bitch. I have been told on several occasions by GM workers "this is fucking bullshit, I don't understand why Americans buy foreign cars....they need to support us". But they are the first motherfuckers to go shopping at WAl Mart.

And to say there are no good jobs out there unless you have a college diploma is just wrong. In my area, there are hundreds of good paying jobs that really don't require a lot of skill to begin with nor do they require a college diploma. People just have to look.

Also, how many people can honestly say that they have been discriminated agianst in the workplace so much so that they need their union to get involved?? Probably not very many.

If you do your job well, keep to yourself, and dont' fuck off on the job....you will NEVER need the union's help. The union is there for those who need "job security" because they are fuck ups.

 

[Beefy]

Good points Kayz, but when I say "pay people what they are worth" I don't mean what their skills (or lack there of) are worth in your opinion, I mean what they are worth in profits to the company they work for. For example, the lazy piece of shit that makes $26/hour at GM is getting paid about $50 k a year, which puts him/her right in the middle of upper middle class with great job security. However the same lazy piece of shit that works for GM over seas (without a union) gets maybe half that (I'm not sure about the pay I'm just trying to make a point). The difference in what our Union worker earns and what his non-union counterpart makes is what the employee is really worth. It is the maximum amount that the company can afford to pay the worker for the job they do while still making a profit as a company.

A real life example that I can tell you about is UPS vs. FedEx. I've worked for both companies. UPS uses the Teamster's Union to ship its freight, FedEx relies on those of us who "do their job well, don't fuck off, and don't need the union's help". FedEx driver's average $12-16/hour, UPS drivers take home more than $20/hour. UPS is the world's leader in shipping and remains a strong competitor in the global market while paying its employees close to what they are worth. FedEx is also a strong company that was started much later than UPS, and can't afford to pay as well as UPS does and remain competitive enough to grow to meet their market.

Also, the idea that a product's expensive price is the fault of the guy who helped put it together is not founded in logic. It's an emotional response because you and other union bashers are basically pissed that you're not in a union making that kind of cheese. GM could blame that extra $4000 on the ridiculous severence package they give their CEOs (GM got the reaction they wanted out of you and many others who read that report). Most CEOs and company presidents get paid well into the tens and sometimes hundreds of millions. I don't have a problem with that because to be a CEO you have to know how to work the system, and not many people do. I don't have a problem with smart employees who admittingly don't know how to work the system, but are smart enough to stick together so they don't get fucked as bad by the company (a union).

I don't like union workers shitte attitudes either, that's one of the reasons I quit my job at UPS.

There are good jobs without degrees. You don't have to be a rich white man to be the President. All true.

If you do a good job and don't fuck off, you will never need a unions help. Untill somebody comes along that can do your job just as good but is willing to work for less money. Then you will gradually lose your place and be forced to learn another trade or start all over again in a similar industry but at a different company. Don't be fooled into thinking GM, UPS, FedEx, or any other company gives a shit about its employees beyond the point of using them (the employees) as a means to an end (profit).

I've really enjoyed this thread, but I've got to run. I'll check back in later tonite.

Give it hell-Beefy

 

[Kayz]

I agree with you and I disagree with you. I see your point in that one's worth, in your opinion, is based on how much money they "make" the company.

And what is wrong with a company replacing a worker with an equally skilled worker who is more than happy to work for a lower wage??? Taht is the foundation of a capitalistic economy. The point of business is to make money, not please every worker at the expense of the companies financial progress. And of course large businesses like GM and UPS use thier employees...and the employees use the companies as well. It is true that most companies that large don't give a shit about their employees, but it is also true that the employees don't give a shit about the companies. In my area, GM is known as "generous motors" because the guys who work their steal tools, duct tape, motor oil....etc all day long and they never get punished. And even if they did get caught stealing company propery and got fired, the union would have thier job back in 2 days....guarantee it.

Your point brings up another point though that I'd like to discuss. Unions in essence prevent competition amonst skilled laborers. For example, most electricians and plumbers in my area belong to a union and therefore they all charge about the same ($40-$60/hr.) What this does though is it guarantees these workers their high wages without the threat of having an equally qualified worker doing the same job for say $25/hour. This, in the end, hurts the consumer.

And as far as my example of GM goes, those stats are not what "GM wants me to believe". Those stats were the result of an independent study done by Kiplinger, which is a financial investment/advising firm. Kiplinger looked only at the benefits/401K's of the typical employees. It did not take into consideration the high bonus' and severence packages of the CEO's and CFO's.

 

[Bob Smith]

And what is wrong with a company replacing a worker with an equally skilled worker who is more than happy to work for a lower wage???

Not a darn thing.

Conversely, if someone excels at their job, works hard and produces the company a ton of money, then that person will 1) get paid a lot more than other, lower-producing people in the position, and 2) basically ensure themselves job security. Kayz, as a business owner Im sure you will agree, the top people in a position you will make sure they are happy, well paid and so on. Those top-producers are hard to come by and worth every penny when you do get them. The bottom 50% of workers Im sure you could replace, never skip a beat and probably pay the new guy a little bit less.

 

[Beefy]

I'm with you Kayz about how unions reward shitte work and kill competition. They do have their place in society, though. This kind of reminds me of another thread Grizz started a few days ago about government. There's a place for government and unions (in society), but they should be kept in check. In most situations unions, and our government (unfortunately), have over stepped their bounds. In theory, a labor union exists to protect the worker, but in reality many unions provide a safe haven for slackers and ass holes.

And I am a business owner, too. I am glad there is no trade union in my area for the guys who work for me, not because I don't want to pay out more or provide better benefits, but because I know it will give every one of my guys a shitte attitude and work ethic.

Thanks to Grizz for starting another great Political thread.

 

[Kayz]

I'm with you Kayz about how unions reward shitte work and kill competition. They do have their place in society, though. This kind of reminds me of another thread Grizz started a few days ago about government. There's a place for government and unions (in society), but they should be kept in check. In most situations unions, and our government (unfortunately), have over stepped their bounds. In theory, a labor union exists to protect the worker, but in reality many unions provide a safe haven for slackers and ass holes.

And I am a business owner, too. I am glad there is no trade union in my area for the guys who work for me, not because I don't want to pay out more or provide better benefits, but because I know it will give every one of my guys a shitte attitude and work ethic.

Thanks to Grizz for starting another great Political thread.

I see where you are coming from, but I am curious about one thing: In YOUR opinion, what is the "union's place in our society??" What do they function to do?? I"m not being a smart ass...I'm really curious to see what others opinions are on this because every one I know shares my views; so, I'm looking for other opinions outside my little circle.

 

[Beefy]

Personally, I have to admit I don't like them. I quit my job at UPS over the union bull shit, and I can tell you that almost everyone I worked with at FedEx had a better attitude than the UPS union guys. I'm a pure capitalist. I don't like government health care, except for children and elderly, and all of the senseless beauracracy we have in our government; and I don't like unions. But I wouldn't go as far as saying I wouldn't want unions to exist. I just don't think I'll be joining one for a while.

If somebody got a job making $25/hour to sit in a toll booth, then good for them. It's not what I want out of life, but knocking them down to a reasonable $10/hour isn't going to lower the toll. I always use the analogy of pro athletes (most of whom belong to players unions). Some people get pissed about A-Rod or who ever making $12 million a year, but the team/owner is getting so money it's only fair that the player get a reasonable portion of the take. But most people just get made at A-Rod instead of getting mad at the team owner for raising ticket prices to an all time high. Sure, they'll tell you they need more money to pay A-Rod, but that's bullshit. I'm glad when a pro athlete gets a huge check, if they're any good. They bust ass for to be the best. But in real life jobs most union guys don't bust ass to be the best, they just slack off and get a check.

 

[Grizzly]

I see where you are coming from, but I am curious about one thing: In YOUR opinion, what is the "union's place in our society??" What do they function to do?? I"m not being a smart ass...I'm really curious to see what others opinions are on this because every one I know shares my views; so, I'm looking for other opinions outside my little circle.

They HAD a place. They don't anymore. Round about the turn of the century(last century) the "evil, capitalist pigs" were actually some shady motherfuckers. Not even being a conspiracy theorist, they legitimately attempted to become the new nobility by paying people the absolute minimum, working their asses off, basically controlling them and then all getting together to make sure that if the worker quit Bill's place and/or started making a fuss, then he would not be hired at Fred's, Pete's, Annie's or Jerome's place either. He would be blackballed and, effectually, starved out of existence.

Thus came the labor union. It's easy to get rid of one guy at a time, but when the entire company tells you to get fucked, it becomes much more of a strain on the pocket and your business.

So, in the beginning, they were good. It was a legitimate movement with a legitimate reason for being. It was a true functioning of a capitalist system. But, now, they are an institution and, like most institutions, have long outlived their purpose and succeed only in causing problems anymore.

I didn't read any further that the quoted post, so hopefully I didn't just retype something someone else has said. Even if I have, y'all know it's better than the shit whomever else said.

 

[Kayz]

Grizz, I totally agree with you and have said that same thing in the past. In the early part of last century, employers were forcing 10 year olds to work 16 hour days in unsafe environments. They were abusing the workers in the sense that the pay was extremely low, conditions were bad, and there were no guidelines protecting the workers. At that time, Unions were necessary because they were the workers only hope in securing better conditions and pay...BUT NOT JOB SECURITY!!!

Nowadays, we have federal and state laws regulating how many hours one can work in a day, how many hours a truck driver can drive a day, overtime, family leave, vacation...etc. We no longer need unions to do what they were originally intended to do; which is protect the worker from the abyssmal conditions/practices they were regularly subjected to.

I think it is safe to say that an overwhelming majority of employers in this country are more than fair to their employees. Shit, employers are so fucking scared to fire people and to discipline shitty workers these days it is unreal. The threat of a lawsuit is always on your mind.

Unions have become a stiffarm organization(s) in which their sole purpose is to ensure that their constituents "keep" their job no matter what they do wrong.

Here is an example. I live close to a GM plant (and a Ford and Honda plant....but I'll use GM). As I said earlier, the employees here call it "generous motors" because they can steal tools and supplies and not get fired. What is even more disturbing is that you can talk to any GM factory worker and they will tell you straight up that probably 30% of the employees are either drunk or are drinking on the job. My old neighbor worked at GM for over 30 years and he has told me many times that all you have to do is put a little Jack Daniels in a coffee cup and you can drink all day!!!

But GM is afraid to act on these individuals for fear of the unions.

 

[Mark Kerr]

Toll booth workers go on strike, and there are a TON of immigrant workers who would work to feed their families...

Is this REALLY a problem-solving quandary for anyone with an IQ over 80?

I love reading about union workers complaining about needing more money. Reminds me of watching the Discovery Channel as a kid. The lions eat all they want, and then the hyenas fight over scraps. The hyenas wonder why they are always skinny, and the lions are always fat...

 

[Grizzly]

And now you see the probelm of the union. No migrant workers allowed. The union has, effectively, eliminated competition. How the fuck a gov't job becomes unionized is beyond me, but such is that case.

 

[Kayz]

And now you see the probelm of the union. No migrant workers allowed. The union has, effectively, eliminated competition. How the fuck a gov't job becomes unionized is beyond me, but such is that case.

Taht was my point earlier....unions eliminate friendly competition, which serves only to benefit the consumer.

The auto unions get all pissed off because Americans go and buy a Hyandai for $7K cheaper than a Chevy....yet these same union workers are the first to go and buy a furniture set made in china because it saves THEM $500.

I listen to auto union workers every fucking day....and they make me sick. Shit, every time you turn around, GM is on a 2 week mandatory shut down....which does NOT go against their 4 weeks of vacations, and I think they get like 80% of their regular salary during this time. And all they do is bitch and bitch and bitch and fucking bitch!!!!!!

 

[MANWHORE]

AHH Yes ... Unions Hopefully,i will soon be part of a Carpenters union.... I'm a hard worker,so the lazy pigs in the union will bother be a little,but when i can make $80,000yr w/ a nice pension,annuities,full medical/dental,and a nice vacation check every year,i just have to do it. You just can't beat it.

 

[chris gordon]

the beginning of labor unions is well illustrated by certain events in my area....now here in the south cotton was king...as grizzly stated they had children as young as 5 and six years old working in the mills...the mills also built houses for the workers...but in order to be elligible for a house you had to supply 2 workers for the mill, basically the mills had their own legal slaves....you couldnt leave cause nowhere to go, and no money to do it....unions suck nowadays, but they were badly needed in that period of worker abuse