Why 250mg/week of Testosterone is the best first cycle ever

[lukiss96]

All right, this is going to be controversial and there will be quite a bit of haters who will say shut yourself down only for that, it's not worth it bro... but they are missing the point like a broken needle for the most part.

So let me tell why 1cc (most commonly) is the best first cycle:

1. First cycle is where the most progress can be made with the least amount and the most basic steroid/hormone possible - Testosterone.

2. Get your feet warm and test the waters without getting all the nasty side efffects (that might occur if you're sensitive).

3. Management of side effects is quite easy, you just need to have an AI like anastrozole and serm like nolvadex on hand.

4. In case of sides they are quite easy to manage from such a moderate dosage, of course you will still need bloods and all, but all in all this sides will not be as intense as larger dosages of T, in case you're sensitive to it.

5. You can always up the dose later on as you progress, but there is no reason to rush if you get results.

6. More is not better and only cause more issues and problems to deal with, which in fact can derail your progress when it comes to making results that actually last by fighting side effects more.

7. If you somehow respond very poor or have to quit your cycle short, the lower dose and the fact that you will need to wait less time for it to drop down to a natural levels will actually make a come off and pct easier than a full blown cycle.

8. As much as people hate to admit it, it's all about the diet and training at the end of the day, there is nothing more important than that. So combined with ever responsive body to a supraphysiological Testosterone levels and the new found drive it is a recipe for success while potentially avoiding side effects and not sacrificing much in terms of taking less.

9. People mistake "fake" or water weight for the real gains that last after pct and or they get too attached to ng/dl they get from certain dosages which on your first cycle is not that significant of a factor as some may think.

10. It's better to increase your dose or cc's later on as you advance, you start low and slow and get the feel of being enhanced rather than taking more than you need and dealing with unecessary issues. Second cycle you can try 375mg/week and if all is good then go ahead and introduce new AAS that fit your goals and/or increase your Testosterone for the third one.


At the end of the day, it's about learning your body and to do so, you gotta start by using moderate amounts of hormone and give it time to adjust and see how it feels and responds, by learning that you can later on make much more wiser decisions.

Patience is the key, in the long run you will make better gains and sacrifice less.

Control your mind, teach yourself new things and again be patient. Don't rush things, anything that's worthwhile will take time and hard work.

Learn to balance it all out in life. It is very important, don't get fixated on one thing, for example bodybuilding or it will consume you (exception would be competitive bodybuilders, but I don't talk to them here, as they would ideally have coaches for their own goals).

Try to focus on more things that are important, but switch priorities and do them in phases sort of thing. Plan ahead and always think about the future, not just now. It is all about the long run.

Finally take care and know when to back down. Control your ego and work on yourself. Be mindful. Take care of your close ones. Stay healthy.

 

[Tr3nbal0n3]

Agreed. Unfortunately, everyone is in a hurry, so they crank up the dosages instead of taking the time to let their body maximize gains from just 250 mg.
To be completely honest, the average Joe who isn’t stepping on stage and just wants to look good can build a phenomenal physique on as little as 200 mg per week. There’s really no need to ever go beyond 350 mg for those people who aren’t stepping on stage. Test and maybe some low dose GH is all that’s needed.

 

[Agadesh]

Thank you but I would say stacking it with Proviron could be worth it, too. Then you can start with even less test like 150-200mg/week

 

[Bobertson]

6. More is not better and only cause more issues and problems to deal with, which in fact can derail your progress when it comes to making results that actually last by fighting side effects more.

The changes in fat-free mass were highly dependent on testosterone dose (P = 0.0001) and correlated with log testosterone concentrations (r = 0.73, P = 0.0001).

 

[lukiss96]

Agreed. Unfortunately, everyone is in a hurry, so they crank up the dosages instead of taking the time to let their body maximize gains from just 250 mg.
To be completely honest, the average Joe who isn’t stepping on stage and just wants to look good can build a phenomenal physique on as little as 200 mg per week. There’s really no need to ever go beyond 350 mg for those people who aren’t stepping on stage. Test and maybe some low dose GH is all that’s needed.

Exactly, people want it all now or they think they're wasting their time.

I should have named the thread to 1cc instead of 250mg, as 1cc can be anywhere from 200 up to 300mg/ml concentration.

 

[lukiss96]

The changes in fat-free mass were highly dependent on testosterone dose (P = 0.0001) and correlated with log testosterone concentrations (r = 0.73, P = 0.0001).

Sure, the (in)famous Bhasin study while it's good, it's also flawed due to muliple of reasons. I'll tell you some.

1. Participants were not training
2. Water retention
3. If you examine and inspect more, you would notice that out of 125, 300 and 600mg/weekly dosages, the results were quite impressive even on 125mg/week, besides 300mg group did the best, compared to 600mg which is double the dose but not the results.

*Besides the end results (the net gains of lbm when all is said and done) are not going to be significantly different between these groups, if they were actually measured deep in to pct and recovery phase.

 

[b6798045]

So double (or triple) of what should be your TRT.

 

[BigTomJ]

I disagree only on the standpoint is that your first cycle is a critical learning opportunity, most importantly to gauge an individuals propensity towards aromatization and AI response.
You WANT to run into some estrogenic sides so that you can learn how your body and bloodwork responds at particular dosages of test, with estrogen managed on a particular dosage of AI.

250mg will be side effect free for 99.99% of healthy males, and you will make progress over being natural, but it doesnt teach you anything at all.
when its time to scale dosage up, its essentially a first cycle all over again because you wont have the requisite knowledge or experience from a 350 only first cycle.

for me, 400mg has been the sweet spot ive seen with my own clients going from natural>enhanced where its an effective dose to progress very well, and enough to give us a good look at whats going on with estrogen, without running the risk of spiking out of control for most people.

 

[Eddie.]

So double (or triple) of what should be your TRT.

210mg had me in 930ng/dl so no, for me 250 it’s not double and surely not triple of a sports trt.

250mg test would be a waste of cycle for me which it was, because I started low with 180mg and in couple months I reached 325mg which had me at 1450ng/dl and it was meh. The “enhanced” feeling with all the benefits came when I reached 500mg + some other goodies.

If someone intends to hop on gear and stay on for a long time or forever like blast and cruise then starting low and titrate later is a good idea, otherwise for in and out cycles like 12-16 cycle anything below 400-500 would be a waste of time for me.

 

[malfeasance]

Sure, the (in)famous Bhasin study while it's good, it's also flawed due to muliple of reasons. I'll tell you some.

1. Participants were not training
2. Water retention
3. If you examine and inspect more, you would notice that out of 125, 300 and 600mg/weekly dosages, the results were quite impressive even on 125mg/week, besides 300mg group did the best, compared to 600mg which is double the dose but not the results.

*Besides the end results (the net gains of lbm when all is said and done) are not going to be significantly different between these groups, if they were actually measured deep in to pct and recovery phase.

But it is actual data . . .

Do you have any data to support your 250 mg is best for first cycle theory? (Not being a smart ass - is there any?)

As to your point 3, should we expect double the results? I think not. Please look at, however, Fig.1, change in thigh muscle volume and the change in quadriceps muscle volume. Those are both damn near double, aren't they? The change in fat free mass is not double, but the 600mg group has a significantly larger increase as compared to the 300 mg group.

Mass and muscle volume is why we take this stuff (it sure is not for heart health).

Maybe it would all equal out between 300 and 600 with just coached diet and training, but I doubt it. I really doubt it.

Sure, the results would be better, but I do not think the 300 group could come close to catching the size gains of the 600mg group in the 20 week cycle.

Also, as to your last point following the asterisk, I think you missed that they had a 16 week recovery period after the 20 week cycle. That's four months.

Yes, there were adverse effects on cholesterol and hemoglobin, but that is why we do not stay elevated year around (well, the smart ones among us don't, )

But for pure results, I think the 600 is going to be superior to the 300 every time.

It would be interesting if somebody put together a study and normed the training and nutrition. There is so little information of this sort. But we have to go by what we have, and for what it is this study is good information.

 

[lukiss96]

But it is actual data . . .

Do you have any data to support your 250 mg is best for first cycle theory? (Not being a smart ass - is there any?)

As to your point 3, should we expect double the results? I think not. Please look at, however, Fig.1, change in thigh muscle volume and the change in quadriceps muscle volume. Those are both damn near double, aren't they? The change in fat free mass is not double, but the 600mg group has a significantly larger increase as compared to the 300 mg group.

Mass and muscle volume is why we take this stuff (it sure is not for heart health).

Maybe it would all equal out between 300 and 600 with just coached diet and training, but I doubt it. I really doubt it.

Sure, the results would be better, but I do not think the 300 group could come close to catching the size gains of the 600mg group in the 20 week cycle.

Also, as to your last point following the asterisk, I think you missed that they had a 16 week recovery period after the 20 week cycle. That's four months.

Yes, there were adverse effects on cholesterol and hemoglobin, but that is why we do not stay elevated year around (well, the smart ones among us don't, )

But for pure results, I think the 600 is going to be superior to the 300 every time.

It would be interesting if somebody put together a study and normed the training and nutrition. There is so little information of this sort. But we have to go by what we have, and for what it is this study is good information.

Sure but what was the actual diet and training program in that study?

What important measurements apart from mass gains (including water) were taken?

The end result is not signifiicant enough between the 300 and 600 group.

This being a first cycle and gaining +- the same keepable gains is a win/win situation anyway you put it.

What data do you have to suggest that higher dosage leads to more gains over time, without constantly being on steroids?

 

[grey]

8. As much as people hate to admit it, it's all about the diet and training at the end of the day, there is nothing more important than that. So combined with ever responsive body to a supraphysiological Testosterone levels and the new found drive it is a recipe for success while potentially avoiding side effects and not sacrificing much in terms of taking less.

This is often the real limiter for new folks an casuals like me.

Taking a 1g+ of compounds a week etc is great if your training and diet are fantastic and largely wasted if not.

 

[malfeasance]

What data do you have to suggest that higher dosage leads to more gains over time, without constantly being on steroids?

I am not sure about why you are asking this question.

The link is to an actual study. A real one. It contains data.

Are there criticisms of it? Sure. Do we wish they had done it differently or perhaps had follow up studies to assess all of the things about which we are curious? Well, I do. Sounds like you do, too.

Nevertheless, it presents data.

There is nothing of the sort contradicting this study.

That is my only point.

This is what we have to go by, as useful as it is and as limited as it is.

 

[phenominal34]

210mg had me in 930ng/dl so no, for me 250 it’s not double and surely not triple of a sports trt.

250mg test would be a waste of cycle for me which it was, because I started low with 180mg and in couple months I reached 325mg which had me at 1450ng/dl and it was meh. The “enhanced” feeling with all the benefits came when I reached 500mg + some other goodies.

If someone intends to hop on gear and stay on for a long time or forever like blast and cruise then starting low and titrate later is a good idea, otherwise for in and out cycles like 12-16 cycle anything below 400-500 would be a waste of time for me.

You are def a low responder tho.

 

[Eddie.]

You are def a low responder tho.

Yes, me and many others. Obviously not the majority but there are cases who need 300mg to hit 800ng/dl, with a legit trt script.

That's why my thoughts while using "low" dosages regarding testosterone should be dictated by ng/dl and not milligrams or cc's.

If we talk 500mg+ it's a different story, having 3000 or 4000ng..i doubt it makes that much of a difference, but 700 with 1700 it sure does.

 

[RedSalmon]

All right, this is going to be controversial and there will be quite a bit of haters who will say shut yourself down only for that, it's not worth it bro... but they are missing the point like a broken needle for the most part.

So let me tell why 1cc (most commonly) is the best first cycle:

1. First cycle is where the most progress can be made with the least amount and the most basic steroid/hormone possible - Testosterone.

2. Get your feet warm and test the waters without getting all the nasty side efffects (that might occur if you're sensitive).

3. Management of side effects is quite easy, you just need to have an AI like anastrozole and serm like nolvadex on hand.

4. In case of sides they are quite easy to manage from such a moderate dosage, of course you will still need bloods and all, but all in all this sides will not be as intense as larger dosages of T, in case you're sensitive to it.

5. You can always up the dose later on as you progress, but there is no reason to rush if you get results.

6. More is not better and only cause more issues and problems to deal with, which in fact can derail your progress when it comes to making results that actually last by fighting side effects more.

7. If you somehow respond very poor or have to quit your cycle short, the lower dose and the fact that you will need to wait less time for it to drop down to a natural levels will actually make a come off and pct easier than a full blown cycle.

8. As much as people hate to admit it, it's all about the diet and training at the end of the day, there is nothing more important than that. So combined with ever responsive body to a supraphysiological Testosterone levels and the new found drive it is a recipe for success while potentially avoiding side effects and not sacrificing much in terms of taking less.

9. People mistake "fake" or water weight for the real gains that last after pct and or they get too attached to ng/dl they get from certain dosages which on your first cycle is not that significant of a factor as some may think.

10. It's better to increase your dose or cc's later on as you advance, you start low and slow and get the feel of being enhanced rather than taking more than you need and dealing with unecessary issues. Second cycle you can try 375mg/week and if all is good then go ahead and introduce new AAS that fit your goals and/or increase your Testosterone for the third one.


At the end of the day, it's about learning your body and to do so, you gotta start by using moderate amounts of hormone and give it time to adjust and see how it feels and responds, by learning that you can later on make much more wiser decisions.

Patience is the key, in the long run you will make better gains and sacrifice less.

Control your mind, teach yourself new things and again be patient. Don't rush things, anything that's worthwhile will take time and hard work.

Learn to balance it all out in life. It is very important, don't get fixated on one thing, for example bodybuilding or it will consume you (exception would be competitive bodybuilders, but I don't talk to them here, as they would ideally have coaches for their own goals).

Try to focus on more things that are important, but switch priorities and do them in phases sort of thing. Plan ahead and always think about the future, not just now. It is all about the long run.

Finally take care and know when to back down. Control your ego and work on yourself. Be mindful. Take care of your close ones. Stay healthy.

I completely agree with every word in the post. Thank you for expressing your opinion with solid arguments. Аll I usually hear is stuff like "Even 500 mg a week won’t give you any effect as a beginner"

 

[dinfar1337]

I disagree only on the standpoint is that your first cycle is a critical learning opportunity, most importantly to gauge an individuals propensity towards aromatization and AI response.
You WANT to run into some estrogenic sides so that you can learn how your body and bloodwork responds at particular dosages of test, with estrogen managed on a particular dosage of AI.

250mg will be side effect free for 99.99% of healthy males, and you will make progress over being natural, but it doesnt teach you anything at all.
when its time to scale dosage up, its essentially a first cycle all over again because you wont have the requisite knowledge or experience from a 350 only first cycle.

for me, 400mg has been the sweet spot ive seen with my own clients going from natural>enhanced where its an effective dose to progress very well, and enough to give us a good look at whats going on with estrogen, without running the risk of spiking out of control for most people.

i also imagine if you are some big genetic freak like ronnie coleman before he jumped on or just generally big you would rather want to crank up the dose to 400-500mg. its gotta be personal and not a clear answer for everyone aswell

 

[CraneKraken]

All right, this is going to be controversial and there will be quite a bit of haters who will say shut yourself down only for that, it's not worth it bro... but they are missing the point like a broken needle for the most part.

So let me tell why 1cc (most commonly) is the best first cycle:

1. First cycle is where the most progress can be made with the least amount and the most basic steroid/hormone possible - Testosterone.

2. Get your feet warm and test the waters without getting all the nasty side efffects (that might occur if you're sensitive).

3. Management of side effects is quite easy, you just need to have an AI like anastrozole and serm like nolvadex on hand.

4. In case of sides they are quite easy to manage from such a moderate dosage, of course you will still need bloods and all, but all in all this sides will not be as intense as larger dosages of T, in case you're sensitive to it.

5. You can always up the dose later on as you progress, but there is no reason to rush if you get results.

6. More is not better and only cause more issues and problems to deal with, which in fact can derail your progress when it comes to making results that actually last by fighting side effects more.

7. If you somehow respond very poor or have to quit your cycle short, the lower dose and the fact that you will need to wait less time for it to drop down to a natural levels will actually make a come off and pct easier than a full blown cycle.

8. As much as people hate to admit it, it's all about the diet and training at the end of the day, there is nothing more important than that. So combined with ever responsive body to a supraphysiological Testosterone levels and the new found drive it is a recipe for success while potentially avoiding side effects and not sacrificing much in terms of taking less.

9. People mistake "fake" or water weight for the real gains that last after pct and or they get too attached to ng/dl they get from certain dosages which on your first cycle is not that significant of a factor as some may think.

10. It's better to increase your dose or cc's later on as you advance, you start low and slow and get the feel of being enhanced rather than taking more than you need and dealing with unecessary issues. Second cycle you can try 375mg/week and if all is good then go ahead and introduce new AAS that fit your goals and/or increase your Testosterone for the third one.


At the end of the day, it's about learning your body and to do so, you gotta start by using moderate amounts of hormone and give it time to adjust and see how it feels and responds, by learning that you can later on make much more wiser decisions.

Patience is the key, in the long run you will make better gains and sacrifice less.

Control your mind, teach yourself new things and again be patient. Don't rush things, anything that's worthwhile will take time and hard work.

Learn to balance it all out in life. It is very important, don't get fixated on one thing, for example bodybuilding or it will consume you (exception would be competitive bodybuilders, but I don't talk to them here, as they would ideally have coaches for their own goals).

Try to focus on more things that are important, but switch priorities and do them in phases sort of thing. Plan ahead and always think about the future, not just now. It is all about the long run.

Finally take care and know when to back down. Control your ego and work on yourself. Be mindful. Take care of your close ones. Stay healthy.

Excellent advice, from the top down. It's hard to disagree with any of it. I'd be surprised if there were any hate or disparaging remarks made regarding such a level headed and thoughtful post.

 

[CraneKraken]

Agreed. Unfortunately, everyone is in a hurry, so they crank up the dosages instead of taking the time to let their body maximize gains from just 250 mg.
To be completely honest, the average Joe who isn’t stepping on stage and just wants to look good can build a phenomenal physique on as little as 200 mg per week. There’s really no need to ever go beyond 350 mg for those people who aren’t stepping on stage. Test and maybe some low dose GH is all that’s needed.

What's your idea of low dose GH? If you're talking 2 - 4 iu I would vehemently disagree. It seems like the gains or any synergistic affect guys get with those doses and Test are barely negligible. I think most guys need to dose GH at a minimum of 6iu to get the tissue building benefits from it. GH is also one of the safest compounds we have in our arsenal so why not use as much as we can afford?

 

[ManK]

All right, this is going to be controversial and there will be quite a bit of haters who will say shut yourself down only for that, it's not worth it bro... but they are missing the point like a broken needle for the most part.

So let me tell why 1cc (most commonly) is the best first cycle:

1. First cycle is where the most progress can be made with the least amount and the most basic steroid/hormone possible - Testosterone.

2. Get your feet warm and test the waters without getting all the nasty side efffects (that might occur if you're sensitive).

3. Management of side effects is quite easy, you just need to have an AI like anastrozole and serm like nolvadex on hand.

4. In case of sides they are quite easy to manage from such a moderate dosage, of course you will still need bloods and all, but all in all this sides will not be as intense as larger dosages of T, in case you're sensitive to it.

5. You can always up the dose later on as you progress, but there is no reason to rush if you get results.

6. More is not better and only cause more issues and problems to deal with, which in fact can derail your progress when it comes to making results that actually last by fighting side effects more.

7. If you somehow respond very poor or have to quit your cycle short, the lower dose and the fact that you will need to wait less time for it to drop down to a natural levels will actually make a come off and pct easier than a full blown cycle.

8. As much as people hate to admit it, it's all about the diet and training at the end of the day, there is nothing more important than that. So combined with ever responsive body to a supraphysiological Testosterone levels and the new found drive it is a recipe for success while potentially avoiding side effects and not sacrificing much in terms of taking less.

9. People mistake "fake" or water weight for the real gains that last after pct and or they get too attached to ng/dl they get from certain dosages which on your first cycle is not that significant of a factor as some may think.

10. It's better to increase your dose or cc's later on as you advance, you start low and slow and get the feel of being enhanced rather than taking more than you need and dealing with unecessary issues. Second cycle you can try 375mg/week and if all is good then go ahead and introduce new AAS that fit your goals and/or increase your Testosterone for the third one.


At the end of the day, it's about learning your body and to do so, you gotta start by using moderate amounts of hormone and give it time to adjust and see how it feels and responds, by learning that you can later on make much more wiser decisions.

Patience is the key, in the long run you will make better gains and sacrifice less.

Control your mind, teach yourself new things and again be patient. Don't rush things, anything that's worthwhile will take time and hard work.

Learn to balance it all out in life. It is very important, don't get fixated on one thing, for example bodybuilding or it will consume you (exception would be competitive bodybuilders, but I don't talk to them here, as they would ideally have coaches for their own goals).

Try to focus on more things that are important, but switch priorities and do them in phases sort of thing. Plan ahead and always think about the future, not just now. It is all about the long run.

Finally take care and know when to back down. Control your ego and work on yourself. Be mindful. Take care of your close ones. Stay healthy.

250 test is ridicule