Whats the point?

[BBC3]

This post started out as an answer to a question by MOB...

From my experience I will give you this. Everyone is going to metabolize exogenous hormones differently. One thing you did not metion was, what were the preexisting levels of hormones in the two men? This has to be consider as "how big was the ice cream cone to start with before you put that cherry on top?" Forget about that for now. Everyone acts differently depending on everything from diet ( some need more of one thing than others), to actuating enzyme levels (still a mystery), to natural set points (which the body will strive to get back to), to amounts of muscle type ( I or II), and amounts of receptors in muscles (which also change depending on genetics/age/current fitness level). A person with more body fat has more estrogen receptors. Did you know that creatine works much better in people with higher levels of fast twitch muscle fiber?? This is true and I have seen it. I believe that adding testosterone will accentuate/amplify the body's aready existing proportions of E2 to DHT, etc. But this is also only true to the point of saturation that is possible. Where the rest goes I am starting to believe is simply excreted after the body is exhaustingly overworked tryinng to removed what can not be uptaked propertly. hence heart, liver, kidney stress. Bigger guys can utilize more steroids for (DHT) muscle, and fatter guys can utilize more steroids for E2. This I am becomming convinced of and why I am starting to believe that more is not only useless, but a TERRIBLE STRAIN on vital body systems. And that if you do have the capacity to use the exogenous hormone as applied, then there is abosolutely no major risk to organs. JUST MY THOUGHTS. Dont bank it. I used to believe that if I guy had the make up of a high estogen person ( no hair loss, or body hair), that this would mean he would create a bunch of estrogens. I have since revised this theory. I have two friends that are both obviously inclined to high E2 to DHT ratios, denoted by not much body hair, and full heads of hair. I have now seen both of them after administering high amounts of exogenous testosterone. The one of them who is less active and even has a pot belly as he does not get to exercise that often, blew up like a pregnant woman. I mean face swollen, serious water retention throughout his body, and emotional signs of high estrogen. The other one, who also has all his hair and happens to work out and has a good degree of muscle, got huge, AND FAST! He has no water bloating and get tons of strength and energy from testosterone. Personally I am the other side of the coin. I am naturally higher in DHT than E2 by makeup. I started loosing my hair and had plenty of body hair at the age of 25. HOWEVER, now nearing 40 ( and only being involved in testosterone supping a few years now), I have a lot of body fat and less muscle than I used to. I am finding that I can hardly make any extra DHT, but I am making plenty of E2. While My bodytype is borderline and only slightly naturally skewed toward a DHT/E2 ration that is slightly higher in DHT, I now have more E2 receptors than I used to causing nothing but negatives when I add too much test. I am thinking that I was close in my theory all along about exogenous test only amplifying natural proportions. This is true to a large degree. However the natural proportions that are being amplified and the current conditions of muscle verses bodyfat. This I am now certain of. So it looks like a condition that can compound on its self. The more muscle you build in the gym, the more exogenous test you can use positively speaking. I am thinking that muscle fibre types are playing a greater role than realized as well.

So now you have to wonder, what is even the fucking point?
(1) I am more and more convinced that there is absolutely no benefit from adding exogenous testosterone unless you have to muscle capacity to merit it. And that would be a great deal of muscle to push the testicles to levels they cant support. The problem with being 30 and going to the gym to find out you cant recover in less than a week is not due to the body's lack of ability to supply necessary testosterone. It can supply enough to get pretty big and benching as much as 400 lbs. The problem ALWAYS lies in the fact that the person has been sedentary for an extended period of time and the HPTA cant compensate overnight. And the older we get, the longer it takes to compensate.
(2) For serious body builders, the normal body can only produce so much testosterone naturally depending on its genetic capability, so if you have created the demand, or you have aged to the point that you can no longer put out the levels to support that 400lb bench press, then you can justify it. I AM STARTING TO THINK PERIOD.

Even Bigger is then WHAT IS THE POINT IN TRT??
(1) I am not even fucking sure anymore.
(2) If you are talking about taking a healthy male who has simply declined in testosterone levels due to natural aging, His body more than likely has the bases already covered for what it currently requires. And the case is really more along the lines not of natural aging, but time on that lazy overworked ass!!!
(3) Keep in mind we are talking about taking 100-150mgs /wk just to "feel better", and improve some "symptoms". The typical candidate for replacement therapy these days is 30-40 years old, no energy in gym/ can't recover from workout, feeling depressed, low energy, poor this, poor that, etc... But what really are we looking at? He is a male who has not been active for 10 plus years, at least not on a regular basis, and he has put on some body fat. So YEA, GO FIGURE, what did I just say. He has already altered his body's proprotional composistion of E to T by changing the primary demand systems structure. So what is adding testosterone going to do for him? AGGREVATE HIS ALREADY WHACKED OUT FATTY ASS with even higher available testosterone to turn into even more E2 and less DHT. AND FINALLY whatever excess he is getting is working the shit out of his organs to excrete!!!!
(4) Any sedentary person is going to still have some availability for bioavailability at receptor points. Hence ANYONE is going to feel something from the initial onset of TRT. A male will welcome the slightly raised DHT and ignore the new E2. A typical protocal for doctors with no sense of homones is to write gel or cream. What happens. The person feels good for a little while (2 weeks), his body starts to compensate (shut down test production) so he continues to feel a little kick from the test cream for a few months as he is still enjoying this little extra bit of DHT, while trying his hardest to ignore the new E2. And then finally after 3-4 months he is completely shut down. The minimal amount of receptors he has are now saturated. He is left with nothing more than now fully saturated receptors with an even higher E2 level totally relying on exogenous hormones to exist. Whatever feeling he got from the initial rush of whatever extra DHT action his small available receptor pool allowed for is now long forgotten due to the prolonged E2 now even more pronounced than before TRT. And FINALLY he says, "Fuck this doc, its not doing anything for me". I would bet that 95% of the folks that try test cream or gel from a general practicioner simply for the reasons of feeling better are finished with it in 6 months tops.!! This is the whole scam and safety mechanism that allows any doc to write gel and not be worried about consequences and not even worry about doing it.
(4) While overall, gels and creams are not even enough hormone to justify using them over sucking on a boar hog's titties, doesn't this just prove the point. I am willing to bet that no AVERAGE TRT CANDIDATE got anymore sensation out of shooting 500mgs of test on Monday, than he would have from applying cream or get for a week. The room simply is not there at the receptors as the body has already supplied them with MOST of what they can handle. And all you are doing after that point is straining organs!!!
(5) THE FUNNIEST PART OF IT ALL IS: Isn't it funny how we all want a quick fix when after all that effort the key was simply in the fact that you had already made yourself what you are, and the only real fix is to change what you are with work and diet education.
(6) Workout recovery is slow = go back again.
Tired all the time = get an athletic hobbie and crankstark your motor.
Can't sleep = thats cause all you did was sit on your ass today.
Depressed = I am too when I dont have a physical sport to bring physical fulfillment.
(7) IN SHORT, for that average healthy 30 year old male considering a cycle or replacement. They may be one in the same! Without exercise, EITHER IS POINTLESS, except for the fact that you are now straining organs too with a cycle size Dose because you are not able to utilize it.

I have constantly experimented with large doese of testosterone while not exercising. IT ONLY MAKES ME FEEL WORSE. Especially psychologically due to the estrogen. I have lived under the false belief that a high dose would someday make me feel good. Shit my out a balance high E2/DHT ratio has me so fucked up I can barely shoot a load well. And the well has never been so dry. I am loosing any doubt that E2 is the sole and major offender to the prostate. I am convinced that without exercise, even TRT is a total waste, if not detrimental. I am sure that body fat to muscle composition is strictly responsible for the hormone composition (that we are interested in) of the body. It would appear to me that the most important and EFFECTIVE thing we can do to improve our hormonal composition is to lower body fat and exercise. Then and only then supplement extra testosterone if you develop the muscle to justify it. I have a buddy who is 37. He has exercised regularly all his life. He has never supp'd testosterone. His T levels are 800 and he feels great. Go figure.

To those that have physical reasons requiring hormone replacement, this was obviously not directed to you. MY POINT IS that all this campaign to get the world on TRT is TOTAL BULLSHIT!!!!!

 

[AlexanderDenmark]

Alot of that sounds about right.

 

[pcgizzmo]

I really hate to disagree but I do.

Of course there are genetic differences between everyone. If you came out of your mom and from age 1 up to now you've had tits like a female cow and rolls of fat you are probably going to have one hell of a time overcoming this. I however don't think there are many people like this.

Most people have screwed up their metabolism and gotten fat over time. When they were younger they were skinny, and or had muscle mass. No one should expect that if you start taking testosterone and already have a high DHT or E2 problem it's not going to get worse. There are ways to manage this though and as everyone is searching you have to find a Dr. to help you or do it yourself.

I have seen way to many people that were fat slobs use TRT and balnce their hormones and now they are in really great shape and look great.

Don't give up. It just sounds like your missing a large part of the puzzle. You said there is no point in adding exogenous T unless their is muscle mass to merit it. I can tell you I have seen many skinny guys w/no muscle add T and now they have very large qty's of muscle. It just takes the right balance. That's not even the point though. You said it yourself. Everyone is different. I personally can't handle (If I want to stay in normal ranges) more than 60 mgs of T per week because I have very low shbg. Some guys take twice that much. It's VERY individualized.

 

[AlexanderDenmark]

Alot of people also didn't get low test from being sedentary slobs. I got my low test symptoms during a very active part of my life. I could not understand why I was getting low test symptoms then(didn't know anything about hormones at the time). I reckon the SSRI's antidepressant did me in. And yes I was depressed despite plenty of daily exercise. But I agree that a very healthy lifestyle is a precursor to succesfull TRT.

Do Injections convert less to E2 and DHT? Is this only the case when injections are taken twice a week?

 

[BBC3]

No you kinda said exactly what I did. I may have not come accross to you very well. I did also say no point in trt without exercise, because the point was you would have no new androgen receptors to facillitate the birth of any additional DHT with exercise.. I am assuming those fat guys that benefited from TRT were exercising pretty solid. This is exactly the case I am proving that only a little is necessary and they were able to utilize the TRT size dose to increase DHT levels faster than the slow rate that the HPTA can compensate naturally. You did not mention whether they were simly fat and never athletic, or hiding some engine under the hood? The second I would think more likely. Who knows, perhaps even exercising and triggering fat release greatly prevents E2 from aromatizing.?? could be. Even you are satisfied with 60mgs/week. Did you have a physical reason for TRT, or were you one that just felt bad one day and tested on the low side. If so, are you even sure you would even need it if you gave your body time to adjust to your current demands?? After all you are only supping enough test to shut you down and replace identically, or at a level of 6-900... I always sided with the guys that said you could get plenty huge from a 200mg/wk cycle. I strayed off that somewhere along the line hoping that more would be better. Its not. I appreciate your disagreement and feedback!

I really hate to disagree but I do.

Of course there are genetic differences between everyone. If you came out of your mom and from age 1 up to now you've had tits like a female cow and rolls of fat you are probably going to have one hell of a time overcoming this. I however don't think there are many people like this.

Most people have screwed up their metabolism and gotten fat over time. When they were younger they were skinny, and or had muscle mass. No one should expect that if you start taking testosterone and already have a high DHT or E2 problem it's not going to get worse. There are ways to manage this though and as everyone is searching you have to find a Dr. to help you or do it yourself.

I have seen way to many people that were fat slobs use TRT and balnce their hormones and now they are in really great shape and look great.

Don't give up. It just sounds like your missing a large part of the puzzle. You said there is no point in adding exogenous T unless their is muscle mass to merit it. I can tell you I have seen many skinny guys w/no muscle add T and now they have very large qty's of muscle. It just takes the right balance. That's not even the point though. You said it yourself. Everyone is different. I personally can't handle (If I want to stay in normal ranges) more than 60 mgs of T per week because I have very low shbg. Some guys take twice that much. It's VERY individualized.

 

[BBC3]

I hear what you are saying for sure. I am convinced that the incredibly large amount of hormonal problems today are related to pesticides, cooking in plastic, and drinking from plastic bottles. Hell even all the soft drinks are packaged in that SHIT !!!! I am not personally convinced on anti-depressants (SSRI's) ability to compromise the HPTA at this time. There are certainly many that can. Many of the new antipsychotics, and even SNRI's have documented effects on progesterone to say for sure. I am just still on the fence with the simple SSRIs like przac, and paxit, etc... I would tend to believe there are more effects that are environmental in reality. No authority is going to tell you this. They are not going to tell you that to feed the world we have to allow so many parts-per million of this chemical to ensure a good crop. They are not going to tell you that the country of Norway has one of the highest rates of certain cancers in the world, and that it is probably due to a Russion sub sunk of the coast with its reactor burning in the open water. This is actually true. The fusion split to a new half-life about 10 years back rendering 20 times more dangerous than it was before. This is the kind of stuff I would believe is causing many issues today. Hell drinking too much will do it. marriage is said to knock 300 points off test levels. OR IS IT THE LIFESTYLE ASSOCIATED. No more time to exercise?? Either way if you were already active with good body fat proportions, and not just sitting around rotting like most americans, then you would fall into the catagory of having a physical ailment to merit replacement. I am trying to detemine just how unnecessary HRT is for the population that it is currently being marketed to. I am also pointing out that I believe that EVERYONE only needs that extra little bit that keeps them the edge for exercise. Whether it be 150mgs.wk for average 3 time a weeker or 800 mgs week for a professional bodybuilder with enough muscle and DHT receptors to use every bit of it.. But the real question for the mass that TRT is currently directed at, Is is it worth it to shut the testicles down for that 10-20% edge that you can ONLY ACHIEVE if you exercise...? WHile also pointing out that if you are living in a body with high fat composition, and estrogen is indeed to DEVIL, arent you getting more negative than positive??

QUOTE=AlexanderDenmark;659156]Alot of people also didn't get low test from being sedentary slobs. I got my low test symptoms during a very active part of my life. I could not understand why I was getting low test symptoms then(didn't know anything about hormones at the time). I reckon the SSRI's antidepressant did me in. And yes I was depressed despite plenty of daily exercise. But I agree that a very healthy lifestyle is a precursor to succesfull TRT.

Do Injections convert less to E2 and DHT? Is this only the case when injections are taken twice a week?[/QUOTE]

 

[AlexanderDenmark]

I hear what you are saying for sure. I am convinced that the incredibly large amount of hormonal problems today are related to pesticides, cooking in plastic, and drinking from plastic bottles. Hell even all the soft drinks are packaged in that SHIT !!!! I am not personally convinced on anti-depressants (SSRI's) ability to compromise the HPTA at this time. There are certainly many that can. Many of the new antipsychotics, and even SNRI's have documented effects on progesterone to say for sure. I am just still on the fence with the simple SSRIs like przac, and paxit, etc... I would tend to believe there are more effects that are environmental in reality. No authority is going to tell you this. They are not going to tell you that to feed the world we have to allow so many parts-per million of this chemical to ensure a good crop. They are not going to tell you that the country of Norway has one of the highest rates of certain cancers in the world, and that it is probably due to a Russion sub sunk of the coast with its reactor burning in the open water. This is actually true. The fusion split to a new half-life about 10 years back rendering 20 times more dangerous than it was before. This is the kind of stuff I would believe is causing many issues today. Hell drinking too much will do it. marriage is said to knock 300 points off test levels. OR IS IT THE LIFESTYLE ASSOCIATED. No more time to exercise?? Either way if you were already active with good body fat proportions, and not just sitting around rotting like most americans, then you would fall into the catagory of having a physical ailment to merit replacement. I am trying to detemine just how unnecessary HRT is for the population that it is currently being marketed to. I am also pointing out that I believe that EVERYONE only needs that extra little bit that keeps them the edge for exercise. Whether it be 150mgs.wk for average 3 time a weeker or 800 mgs week for a professional bodybuilder with enough muscle and DHT receptors to use every bit of it.. But the real question for the mass that TRT is currently directed at, Is is it worth it to shut the testicles down for that 10-20% edge that you can ONLY ACHIEVE if you exercise...? WHile also pointing out that if you are living in a body with high fat composition, and estrogen is indeed to DEVIL, arent you getting more negative than positive??

QUOTE=AlexanderDenmark;659156]Alot of people also didn't get low test from being sedentary slobs. I got my low test symptoms during a very active part of my life. I could not understand why I was getting low test symptoms then(didn't know anything about hormones at the time). I reckon the SSRI's antidepressant did me in. And yes I was depressed despite plenty of daily exercise. But I agree that a very healthy lifestyle is a precursor to succesfull TRT.

Do Injections convert less to E2 and DHT? Is this only the case when injections are taken twice a week?

[/QUOTE]


There are reliable studies showing that SSRI's greatly repress the HPTA and significantly increase prolactin. For me I don't believe it's up to debate. However everyone may not end up with low test levels during or after treatment.

 

[BBC3]

Sorry I may have said progesterone and meant prolactin.!?!?!? Are you sure you are not referring to some of the newer drugs when on this subject.?? What SSRI's did you take? Just curious.



There are reliable studies showing that SSRI's greatly repress the HPTA and significantly increase prolactin. For me I don't believe it's up to debate. However everyone may not end up with low test levels during or after treatment.[/QUOTE]

 

[jlguitar]

ive been working out for 23 years and felt great all the time,never had depression and always had a positive atitude .but when i turned 40 something was a bit off,started getting depressed for the first time in my life,started looking into it on the internet and figured out it was low testosterone,i found a doctor and got tested and sure enough my test levels were only 225, that was three years ago and been on trt for that long and i feel great like my old self, i am glad that doctors are finally seeing the problem as a true medical condition.

 

[Millard]

I hear what you are saying for sure. I am convinced that the incredibly large amount of hormonal problems today are related to pesticides, cooking in plastic, and drinking from plastic bottles.

Society is so consumed with steroid hysteria from doping in sports that they've ignored the REAL steroid problem -- environmental xenoestrogens and endocrine disrupters.

 

[biceps72]

Society is so consumed with steroid hysteria from doping in sports that they've ignored the REAL steroid problem -- environmental xenoestrogens and endocrine disrupters.

agree 100%-- our environment is a freakin mess!!! I spent a career in academia studying ecology and the data strongly suggests that envirinmental pollutants are negatively impacting plants, animals and humans!!!!

Ever wonder why so many men are hypogonadic??? Ever wonderr why so many women have endocrine disorders??

Some prefer to call me an "environmental wacho" rather than face the reality of the situation; fuck those people!!!

 

[zkt]

I was wrong. You dont type as fast as you think- you type faster than you think.
What is your point?
Everyone is different?
Some things drugs cant change?
Utopia is elusive ?
TRT is BS?
You`re not satisfied with yourself ?
I owe you a favor man and would repay it if I knew where to start.

 

[BBC3]

Heres the short answer. I have fucked around too much in the essence of experimentation and the results are disappointing.. Or for those with nothing better to do than read the inner workings of a dimented mind, you can proceed on to the next post...

I was wrong. You dont type as fast as you think- you type faster than you think.
What is your point?
Everyone is different?
Some things drugs cant change?
Utopia is elusive ?
TRT is BS?
You`re not satisfied with yourself ?
I owe you a favor man and would repay it if I knew where to start.

 

[BBC3]

First and foremost I am the most guilty party here. Whilst I have endeavored in TRT and been prescribed medication as such. I have yet to ever even follow the protocol. That is, for more than 14weeks (+/-) at a time, and that has been a while. From the get go, I have been utilizing 500mgs avg/wk for therapy. I was training. I have gone to very extreme levels as well.

The general jist of my thread was to point out that mainstream TRT is currently being marketed at anyone that "feels bad" and only pointing out that this is no mecca and should be strongly questioned. There are simply too many environmental factors ranging from how much one drinks, to what he may be drinking it in to concluded necessity. T can easily vary 300 points via many factors. PLEASE CLEARLY NOTE, THAT I DID STATE THAT I WAS NOT INCLUDING THE GROUP THAT HAS LEGIT LOW T DUE TO PYSIOLOGICAL REASONS. I.E. 40 year old plus, and those physically injured or requiring medically for sure. ( Again, CAPS not yelling, just trying to covey important sentences for "skimmers").

I am one who I now believe falls into the questionable catagory as I drink too much and was too sedentary for too long. We forget how powerful drugs and alcohol are after enough time. I can remember when I worked out regular when young, and a friday night a drinkning would set workouts back 5 days!!! Now I do this nightly and wonder whats wrong...

I have for many years blasted the concept of receptor influence in hormone replacement. I would have liked to place the blame on delivery mechanisms (enzymes, etc.). However, the more I understand that receptors are a function of their physiscal location, and quantity within the body, the more I question the world I have been living in. I have proven beyond a doubt (at least for me) that quantiiy of juice added (when considering testosterone supping only), has nothing to do with well being. I have supplemented T in amounts ranging from 150 to 2000mgs/wk. The only difference I have found has been undesired side effects and straign on bodily organs. And I am referring to excesses of T administration that not only MEASURABLY straign organs, but are in such excess that they can not even be bound to protiens to be measured. Thus straigning liver and kidneys as "unidentifiable junk", EVEN WORSE. Hence I have not totally discounted by Enzyme theory. It is obviously a combination of all.

I am starting to believe there is a fine line between working out and HRT that has not been focused on. Meaning that perhaps all you have to do is strain a group of muscles that has not been worked to switch on a large mass of receptors that would have otherwise not been in play, and hence, a major shift in effectiveness vs. dosage results from the slightest degree of change. This is where many TRT's are separated. This is where the 30-40 year olds on TRT may hit the mark or drop way short. It is this entire system that I once questioned ( to get absolutely no answer) about T usage. DOES THE BODY BURN T?? And how is that measured?? so to speak. And how to adjust for that. Just think, A 30 year old just trying to feel better can hit the mark (or his best mark which may be no positive effect) with 60mgs/wk, if sedetary. A 30 year old working out may in fact trigger the awakening of several times the receptor activity thus demanding 10 times the dose, just from a squatting routine....

This all begs an even bigger question. I have put a lot of stock in Eugene Shippen's thoughts. Replace the insulin if you need it so to speak. BUT I am finding this to be a much greated propostion that dates all the way back ( and go figure), to an individuals health and activity levels. Whereas I would like to think that simply adding the masterhormone testosterone is the key to prostate preservation. I DONT THINK SO.. WHile natural inadequacies exist in human aging, simply replacing testosterone is not the answer. IT IS THE PROPROTIONS THAT ARE IN PLAY AS WELL AS THE AMOUNTS.!! Take a "normal, fat" 40 year old male and throw in some extra testosterone and what do you have? A male with even higher E2, which I am currently thinking is the death of the prostate. Estrogen may be the devil wil be my first publication. Hell all you have to do is get married to figure that one out...... So now, what is more important? Supping test or changing the bodily factors that affect aromatization and uptake.?? Clearly it is the latter. Lower the body fat and increase the muscle mass and hormonal proportional issues are completely solved, with the exception of those whos bodies can no longer meet the hormonal demands accurately. And hence you have your TRT candidates.

Its just disappointing that my conclusion is now that T is not a magic bullet, in its self. My thoughts are proven by the following questions.
(1) why do you have 30-40 year olds that have very limited results for T supplementaion?
(2) Why does sexual function seem to diminish for many with T use?
(3) Why does my hair loss not go through the roof when supping 2000mgs test/week?
(4) Why do I seem to only get more depressed with too much T?
(5) Why do younger more fit guys seem to get an accross the board better response?
(6) Why can pro body builders supp 2K while training and TRT with 500mgs successfully?
(7) Why do negative side effects occur from high E2 levels?\
(8) Why do so many "average" guys testify that amazing results can be gained from a 200mg/wk workout supplemention, and that no more is neccessary? And why do the stronger more experienced guy testify that is not enough??
(9) If T supping is so great for men, then why is it that we blow through any sexual benefit in 2 weeks flat, only to become more and more problematic involving prostate malfuction? There is not a sole here that can testify that their sex lives have improved overall. Horns may even rise, bu that dick sure dont, and neither dose the distance one can shoot a load. Proportional benefit is not a curve at all, its a quick upward spike and then a line straight down.....

I am growing convinced that again moderation is the key, and this is a tough act to balance. ANd that sucks because I am like every other person out there expecting instant gratification for nothing in return......[}]

Sorry to kill a buzz or two...

 

[zkt]

You remind me of a time 40 years ago when I was into speed and driving a taxi. Back then black beauties were the thing: pharmaceutival grade meth.
One fine day I popped a couple befor work, god knows what else was in my system at the time, and my first call was at some bar. I talked the guy who thought he wanted to go somewhere else into a game of pool and the next thing I knew I had drank a case of beer and it was 8 hours later. I was still going strong when the dispatcher sent another driver to find me.
Life went on.
No shit.
Sound familar?

 

[pmgamer18]

I think the big problem is men get to feeling bad find out it's low T on labs Dr. 's jump on treating them without trying to figure out why they are low. It happened to me I was on TRT 23 yrs of 27 and never felt 100%. I found out why 5 yrs ago but a bit late ended up having Heart Bypass Sugary do to low hormones. I was told I am Primary and I was Secondary you can read my story at this link and the update about my heart at this this link. Don't go on TRT until you find out why your low.
realthyroidhelp.com • View topic - My Story.
Yesterday I started on Growth Hormones now I treat all of them.

 

[BBC3]

I dont think that todays amphetamines are quite that strong. Adderall is a combo of 4 salts (i think). Two long lasting (D-amphetamine),and 2 short acting (ritalin). I could have that backwards. Either way I am guessing that the molecular structure of what you are referring to was designed to break down slower. I dont know. HOWEVER, I do seem to recall a time when 15mgs of Adderall would lite me up so bad I would be in a productive sweat for hours before I just simmered down to wide open!!!. You may have something. Perhaps not so far off. I take 60mgs/day of the stuff for ADHD now. I can also remember the first time I took both doses at once. I was sitting at a red light and thinking I was going to sieze up and just open the door to fall out on the ground flailing around!?!?!? The saddest part is how quickly one will tolerate the affects. I guess it takes a couple of years of dabbling but then you wake up one day and cant get out of bed without them...Talk about adrenal burn out. I am convinced (and read data) that the affect causes circadium changes affecting LH output dramatically. This would be related to the increased NE and Dopamine resulting. I am also pretty sure that this is the culprit or at least a large player in my low T.

I never knew I was ADHD till I was 28 or so. I suspected and had always self medicated with large quantities of Pop drinks my whole life. They are now starting to tie ADHD, OCD, and Autism all together, medically speaking. If you analize the conditions, OCD would come first. A condition I believe the brain is too slow for the body, and the body has too much time so repeats actions. I see a lot of these people out there and I am pretty sure Adderall does just aggrivates their condition due to proportion increases in brain/body activity only marginally effective in treatment. I think it is the small disproportion in activity that allows these folks to be misdiagnosed as ADHD on the right day. Then ADHD, the brain is just a little too fast for body so amphetamines allow the body to get into an operable "zone", by picking up the body's ability jsut enough to function effectively with this faster brain speed.. One then "appears to" calm down as they can now keep their body more in sink with the brain, at least to the point that the body can now be effective, hence giving the e appearanve of locking in and "tweaking" on something, if dosed to high. This is the middle of the road in this triplex of mental/prysical inequality. I believe there is a sliding scale/zone where the mind and body can function together effectively. And the closer the disproportion, the larger the "zone" to play within with this type treatment. ADHD treatment with amphetamines seems to lift the body just above that bottom of this threshold into the operable area, whereas the brain is not so far ahead that any simultaneous increase in mental activitay dose not blow if throught the upper threshold at the same time. Of coure the final result is often increased brain and body activity making you somewhat "superhuman", to be true. Unfortunately, given that moderation is the key to longevity, this person will surely come to their end more quickly that those that dont use amphetamines. Finally you have the far end of the spectrum with Autism. Brain is moving so fast the body is just locked up and doesnt even stand a chance. In their brains, a new thought comes along before the body can even react to the last one. So they just "sit there" and never even get off the first shot, so to speak. The mechanism of amphetamine action simply does not help here as this bi-proportionate increase in mental and physical activity only would aggrivate a way too fast brain to body ratio inherent to the condition. Kinda makes you wonder if Provigil would be affective for Autism?? Or better yet, marijuana? I wonder if this has been tried. Our society is such a hippocritical bunch of "witch burners" and fear mongers, that this would have been deemed an illegitimate treatment if already tried and worked. I wonder if anyone has tried to keep an autism patient awake to the point of mental exhaustion, and do their systems now work??

Regarding "abuse". Again this is a definition that has many factors and judges alike. I think that its exciting for anyone to be able to simply take a pill and be able to thrive with the satisfaction of mental fullfillment. The mental clarify, more effective brain utiliization and purpose, that only otherwise comes with stumbling upon the invention of the light bulb, can be a positive thing if directed appropriately. I can certainly relate to how amphetamines could add some spice to the otherwise mundane day of a cab driver. It would be especially awsome to be prepared like that to be mentally able to take in all the different folks that one would meet and be able to soak it all in, hence making you a very knowledgeable and socially apt cabbie! Or even maybe jsut provide for a really strong day of straight pool. with an incredibly increased tolerance for alcohol boggling the minds of his now husled victims.... Just my thoughts..

OOPS, I did it again........[)]


E=zkt;659662]You remind me of a time 40 years ago when I was into speed and driving a taxi. Back then black beauties were the thing: pharmaceutival grade meth.
One fine day I popped a couple befor work, god knows what else was in my system at the time, and my first call was at some bar. I talked the guy who thought he wanted to go somewhere else into a game of pool and the next thing I knew I had drank a case of beer and it was 8 hours later. I was still going strong when the dispatcher sent another driver to find me.
Life went on.
No shit.
Sound familar?[/QUOTE]

 

[BBC3]

GH or IGF-1?? What is your understanding of the difference? I have seen some of your story, but I am taking it in slowly over time as I increase my arsenal of tools to understand.....

I think the big problem is men get to feeling bad find out it's low T on labs Dr. 's jump on treating them without trying to figure out why they are low. It happened to me I was on TRT 23 yrs of 27 and never felt 100%. I found out why 5 yrs ago but a bit late ended up having Heart Bypass Sugary do to low hormones. I was told I am Primary and I was Secondary you can read my story at this link and the update about my heart at this this link. Don't go on TRT until you find out why your low.
realthyroidhelp.com • View topic - My Story.
Yesterday I started on Growth Hormones now I treat all of them.

 

[pmgamer18]

I started on Humatrope shots .3mgs it's a growth hormone shot my IGF-1 levels have been below 130 for yrs and just tested IGFBP-1 and it was below the normal range 6.6 range is 13 to 73 ng/ml.

GH or IGF-1?? What is your understanding of the difference? I have seen some of your story, but I am taking it in slowly over time as I increase my arsenal of tools to understand.....

 

[AAS_29]

I really hate to disagree but I do.

Of course there are genetic differences between everyone. If you came out of your mom and from age 1 up to now you've had tits like a female cow and rolls of fat you are probably going to have one hell of a time overcoming this. I however don't think there are many people like this.

Most people have screwed up their metabolism and gotten fat over time. When they were younger they were skinny, and or had muscle mass. No one should expect that if you start taking testosterone and already have a high DHT or E2 problem it's not going to get worse. There are ways to manage this though and as everyone is searching you have to find a Dr. to help you or do it yourself.

I have seen way to many people that were fat slobs use TRT and balnce their hormones and now they are in really great shape and look great.

Don't give up. It just sounds like your missing a large part of the puzzle. You said there is no point in adding exogenous T unless their is muscle mass to merit it. I can tell you I have seen many skinny guys w/no muscle add T and now they have very large qty's of muscle. It just takes the right balance. That's not even the point though. You said it yourself. Everyone is different. I personally can't handle (If I want to stay in normal ranges) more than 60 mgs of T per week because I have very low shbg. Some guys take twice that much. It's VERY individualized.

Dude, i hv to say, you know what ure talking but then you also dont know. Dont complicate things too much and do what works for you. if you can bench 400lbs naturally good for u man. Some can never get to that number, without support. Some may not even get it with AAS. It all depends. Just stop overthinking.