MESO-Rx Exclusive Trenbolone facts - series on unique characteristics of different steroids

[IndividualMan]

all this tren ester talk makes me want to get some tren for my next cut.
maybe some enanthate, steroid plotter and grok AI is telling me that i get more out of enanthate VS ace, due to their longer half lives. : )

 

[RockyP]

eh, half true. just because elimination time is longer only really means that you reach peak concentration slower.
(steroid plotter has done irreversible damage on this communitys understanding of esters, clearance times, serum concentrations and Pharmacokinetics)

I have no idea what steroid plotter is and have never used it.

The real nuance that’s lost here is not “dosage” but the pharmacodynamic effect of these different esters. Ask yourself, how different will you feel, how different will your bloodwork be, how different will the side effects be if instead of taking 500 mg per week of test C, you took 100 mg of TNE 5x per week? It’s the same compound. Same dosage. But you’re going to be in for a much different ride on the TNE 5x weekly compared to the cyp.

 

[IndividualMan]

feel

Anything else is just for feelz.

how different will the side effects be if instead of taking 500 mg per week of test C, you took 100 mg of TNE 5x per week?

true, but unesterfied vs Ace ester is a massive difference.
unesterfied will always clear too quickly to be effective/practical. If you were to pin 12x/day tho (for stable levels), you would get the same effects as the 500 cyp tho. its just impractical, no magic ester completely changing effects.

Thats like saying "if I pin ace 1x/week and E 1x/week the E works better" no shit, exposure time is different. Nothing else

 

[RockyP]

true, but unesterfied vs Ace ester is a massive difference.
unesterfied will always clear too quickly to be effective/practical. If you were to pin 12x/day tho (for stable levels), you would get the same effects as the 500 cyp tho. its just impractical, no magic ester completely changing effects.

Thats like saying "if I pin ace 1x/week and E 1x/week the E works better" no shit, exposure time is different. Nothing else

But this ignores the impact that pulse dosing of something like TNE would have on your BP, HCT, etc. that was my point that we’re all losing the forest from the trees. The “dosage” Or steady state circulating concentration whatever we call does not necessarily Have the same physiological impact across the board. In terms of Tren ace vs the longer esters, I think what’s most important in the real world is not really the “dosage” per se but how well a person tolerates a given compound. For example, some guys metabolize acetate really fast and it’s the up and down fluctuations that give them sides. For some of us that’s not an issue at all and we prefer acetate just to be able to turn it off quickly if needed. The other issue of course is that there’s tremendous variability from person to person in terms of metabolism and clearance of these drugs, which is why careful / informed trial and error is the best approach.

Putting aside the minutiae of the ace vs long esters, IMO the most important take away is if you’re new to tren, best to start with acetate. If that goes well, just keep doing that. If you want to try hex or enan, go ahead, but try it at a lower dosage just in case it doesn’t agree with you for some reason, as you’ll be stuck with those side effects for a bit of time.

 

[Sampei]

But this ignores the impact that pulse dosing of something like TNE would have on your BP, HCT, etc. that was my point that we’re all losing the forest from the trees. The “dosage” Or steady state circulating concentration whatever we call does not necessarily Have the same physiological impact across the board. In terms of Tren ace vs the longer esters, I think what’s most important in the real world is not really the “dosage” per se but how well a person tolerates a given compound. For example, some guys metabolize acetate really fast and it’s the up and down fluctuations that give them sides. For some of us that’s not an issue at all and we prefer acetate just to be able to turn it off quickly if needed. The other issue of course is that there’s tremendous variability from person to person in terms of metabolism and clearance of these drugs, which is why careful / informed trial and error is the best approach.

Putting aside the minutiae of the ace vs long esters, IMO the most important take away is if you’re new to tren, best to start with acetate. If that goes well, just keep doing that. If you want to try hex or enan, go ahead, but try it at a lower dosage just in case it doesn’t agree with you for some reason, as you’ll be stuck with those side effects for a bit of time.

With this I can agree completely

 

[bananafeet]

Type2x has once again covered this before. I think it was about the biphasic nature of TNE and E2.

Faster esters provide more area under the curve. This means more side effects that are a result of higher acute blood concentrations.

This is obviously why hex was chosen for the human version due to its ridiculously long half life. Obviously oil type and the size of the depot has an effect as well. Ie test undecanoate using a thick oil like castor.

Anyhow the drugs act differently depending on the delivery mechanism. I'm pretty sure trens effects in the parabolan product and in cattle are from blocking catabolism thereby adding net anabolism.

That's why you hear the big guys saying they aren't really impressed with the drug from a mass gaining perspective. In a calorie surplus catabolism would be relatively low.

Still it's fun to take and the agression is addictive.

 

[xrayphoton13]

eh, half true. just because elimination time is longer only really means that you reach peak concentration slower.
(steroid plotter has done irreversible damage on this communitys understanding of esters, clearance times, serum concentrations and Pharmacokinetics)

Steroid plotter has tren hex with a shorter half life than tren e and I'm pretty sure test d with a shorter half life than test e. I think they have different half lives for all the enanthates: tren e, test e, primo e, and mast e. The source links I looked at went to crappy studies that didn't even test half life and merely stated it without any evidence.

 

[Mfras]

Whoah. So I’ve read the threads you’re talking about and my takeaway was that the enanthate is approximately 90% as strong as the acetate, but I’d pin it 2 or 3 times a week not ED or EOD. Some people seemed to count all the hormone in your body as the amount that you experience effects from but it makes much more sense that a good amount is locked up in the slow release ester. Otherwise where would the longer on and offramps come from?

I would expect the enanthate release to take a few weeks to saturate and a few weeks to leave, like longer than cypionate but not forever like decanoate. And the consensus seems to be that something like 385/week tren E would be equivalent to 350/week tren A, but anecdotal evidence is scattered, with people reporting everything from a smoother ride on E to a much bumpier one.

Personally I believe that a slightly higher dose would be necessary for the same effect if I used E instead of A, but also I would be more conservative out of respect for the compound and less ability to clear the longer ester.

For myself the jury’s still out on whether I’d do a tren cycle again, despite tolerating it well so far. But this shit is endlessly interesting separating the lore from bro science from individual tolerance and benefit.

I do appreciate the advice re: PIP and higher concentration at 200mg/ml. I am usually pretty resistant to pip and prefer higher concentrations for smaller amounts of oil, but it’s more psychological than necessary since I’m not trying to jam 3g in me a week or something.

 

[malfeasance]

figured daily pins might give the best chance of avoiding sides. It’s working so far but maybe would be just fine EOD or MWF

What schedule do you like for tren ace?

EOD or MWF or daily, but usually did M W F. I even went through a period where I used enanthate instead.

Don't touch the stuff now. It was always bad for me on sweating in the bed and waking up all night.

I also did not think it was all that magical in terms of cutting as compared to a consistent, well designed diet. I just ended up deciding that whatever benefits it had were small and were outweighed by the negatives which were large.

 

[NecroPhil]

Ok so I realize that steroid plotter is not exactly the most accurate representation of what is happening in blood serum but its a general representation based on half life clearance. Obviously everyone's body is different and reacts differently so results will vary.
Let me know if I am misunderstanding something but it seems that you get way more bang for your buck on Enanthate. So the way you could take advantage of nature of Enanthate is: if you can hang with the longer ester, you can run lower dose and still achieve the same serum concentration as a much higher dose of Acetate.
I plotted the different esters concurrently, and Enanthate at 220mg eod or Hex at 320mg eod reaches roughly the same peak serum levels as Acetate at 1000mg eod.
Do you think there is a health advantage to running Enanthate since you can run it at a lower dose and still achieve similar serum levels? Or will the clearance of acetate negate any potential negative effects of running a lower dose.
Just curious about this to see if these numbers reflect any anecdotal experiences with the different esters.

 

[xrayphoton13]

Ok so I realize that steroid plotter is not exactly the most accurate representation of what is happening in blood serum but its a general representation based on half life clearance. Obviously everyone's body is different and reacts differently so results will vary.
Let me know if I am misunderstanding something but it seems that you get way more bang for your buck on Enanthate. So the way you could take advantage of nature of Enanthate is: if you can hang with the longer ester, you can run lower dose and still achieve the same serum concentration as a much higher dose of Acetate.
I plotted the different esters concurrently, and Enanthate at 220mg eod or Hex at 320mg eod reaches roughly the same peak serum levels as Acetate at 1000mg eod.
Do you think there is a health advantage to running Enanthate since you can run it at a lower dose and still achieve similar serum levels? Or will the clearance of acetate negate any potential negative effects of running a lower dose.
Just curious about this to see if these numbers reflect any anecdotal experiences with the different esters.

Steroid plotter is garbage. It thinks tren hex has a shorter half life than tren e. Tren hex is like twice as long as tren e. It thinks nandrolone decanoate has twice the half life of test decanoate. It's useless to compare compounds or esters with. It has you thinking you'll get the same results with 3500mg tren a or 770mg tren e or 1,120mg tren h. That's insane. I'm also pretty sure 3500mg tren ace might make your heart explode. But I know people have run 770mg tren e and they did not explode

 

[Mfras]

Ok so I realize that steroid plotter is not exactly the most accurate representation of what is happening in blood serum but its a general representation based on half life clearance. Obviously everyone's body is different and reacts differently so results will vary.
Let me know if I am misunderstanding something but it seems that you get way more bang for your buck on Enanthate. So the way you could take advantage of nature of Enanthate is: if you can hang with the longer ester, you can run lower dose and still achieve the same serum concentration as a much higher dose of Acetate.
I plotted the different esters concurrently, and Enanthate at 220mg eod or Hex at 320mg eod reaches roughly the same peak serum levels as Acetate at 1000mg eod.
Do you think there is a health advantage to running Enanthate since you can run it at a lower dose and still achieve similar serum levels? Or will the clearance of acetate negate any potential negative effects of running a lower dose.
Just curious about this to see if these numbers reflect any anecdotal experiences with the different esters.

I think that the amount of active compound is actually slightly greater in tren Ace. It’s not a super dramatic difference though. Other than that the amount of hormone you inject per week is the amount of hormone you inject per week. Not sure how you could get more bang for your buck? Once the ester release of your pinning schedule starts overlapping and dissipating at a steady rate that’s the peak saturation.

Of course I’m just an idiot and totally willing to learn why I’m wrong

 

[IndividualMan]

I think that the amount of active compound is actually slightly greater in tren Ace. It’s not a super dramatic difference though. Other than that the amount of hormone you inject per week is the amount of hormone you inject per week. Not sure how you could get more bang for your buck? Once the ester release of your pinning schedule starts overlapping and dissipating at a steady rate that’s the peak saturation.

Of course I’m just an idiot and totally willing to learn why I’m wrong

you are an idiot for getting it exactly right, and making it understandable for even the littlest of IQlets

 

[NecroPhil]

I think that the amount of active compound is actually slightly greater in tren Ace. It’s not a super dramatic difference though. Other than that the amount of hormone you inject per week is the amount of hormone you inject per week. Not sure how you could get more bang for your buck? Once the ester release of your pinning schedule starts overlapping and dissipating at a steady rate that’s the peak saturation.

Of course I’m just an idiot and totally willing to learn why I’m wrong

Thank you for your experience and knowledge.

Forgive me, im new here and also am an idiot and got lost in the ester talk.

Bang for you buck because a higher concentration per volume and that the longer the ester, the longer it takes time to clear out of your system. So if the half life 7 days, you have 1/2 the dose still in your system after a week, and the total clearance time is 4 to 5 half lives, but you pin e3d or eod or whatever you get a stacking effect up to a peak, which can accumulate to a significantly larger total drug concentration in the blood - over time - versus if you would have done one bolus dose at one time. Like if you have a cup that has a hole in it and leaks water a rate of 7 units per week but every 3 days you put in 7 units, its gonna fill up faster than it leaks out.

But I digress lol. I guess what I am really wondering about is how many people use tren E, and like it, and at what dosage. Most people use tren A it seems. Vigorous Steve was using 25mg/wk I think and he said it was a good dose for him but I cant remember what ester.

 

[Mfras]

Thank you for your experience and knowledge.

Forgive me, im new here and also am an idiot and got lost in the ester talk.

Bang for you buck because a higher concentration per volume and that the longer the ester, the longer it takes time to clear out of your system. So if the half life 7 days, you have 1/2 the dose still in your system after a week, and the total clearance time is 4 to 5 half lives, but you pin e3d or eod or whatever you get a stacking effect up to a peak, which can accumulate to a significantly larger total drug concentration in the blood - over time - versus if you would have done one bolus dose at one time. Like if you have a cup that has a hole in it and leaks water a rate of 7 units per week but every 3 days you put in 7 units, its gonna fill up faster than it leaks out.

But I digress lol. I guess what I am really wondering about is how many people use tren E, and like it, and at what dosage. Most people use tren A it seems. Vigorous Steve was using 25mg/wk I think and he said it was a good dose for him but I cant remember what ester.

First off my mom thinks I’m smart but I’m a baby in the steroids world. I’m a little spectrum-ey and have that thing where I get interested in a topic or a hobby and buy every book I can find on it, scour the internet, and sometimes even find masters of the craft to take classes from or buy them steak dinner and ask a million annoying questions.

But I try not to be an asshole overnight expert- I’m good at sifting and synthesizing information but my personal experience with this stuff is a few years of TRT and a bunch of playing with different compounds and doing science experiments on myself. Also I’m getting over profound injury and fatness I’m a large human but never was or will be a bodybuilder.

So thanks for the kind words but take my posts for what they are- just more crap for you to include as you research and filter your own signal to noise and learn.

Here’s what I can tell you from my limited understanding and experience and what I’m feeling like the core of your questions are:

Tren is tren. It’s powerful, dark magic and everyone has different reactions to it. Some people get fucked up intolerable physical or mental side effects, some don’t. Whether you feel like you’re being poisoned or not, trust that on some level you certainly are.

My understanding of the ester thing:
Sometimes you’ll see a compound sold as “base” or “no ester”. People talk about TNE test no ester. This is pure hormone and runs through you in hours. Only good for usually a preworkout boost.

Proponate and acetate are short esters. They release the hormone in a controlled but quick speed, requiring 3-7 pins per week (opinions vary) to maintain a fairly stable environment. Some people report more side effects (e2, hct, etc) result from a rollercoaster ride of peaks and valleys. Seems anecdotal and individual but has merit for sure.

Cypionate- a common test ester is often used by TRT clinics for once weekly injections. It releases slow enough that you don’t feel like shit yet 7 days later but definitely exhibits a trough of low levels, which is why many of them do their blood testing on weekly pin day to get a low value and justify pumping up your dose so you get a euphoric first half of the week. Drug dealer behavior in a way.

Decanoate- Nand Deca is oldschool and people run it for like 20 weeks because the ester releases the hormone so slowly that it builds up and stacks and you reallly feel it after a bunch of weeks.

Here’s the thing about the stacking- yes you can get a cumulative effect if the pinning schedule overwhelms the release speed. They should be matched to each other. Once the overlapping doses have begun to build and clear steadily you have your maximum saturation. With a slow ester and more frequent pinning this can be a bunch higher than the amount pinned, but is still a stable amount until you stop, then takes just as long to tail off.

People like tren ace because it’s a scary drug- even experienced users can suddenly find that their body changed its mind and they start having a shitty time. With ace you are days from clearing the hormone (although unlucky people have been left with permanent anxiety or sexual preferences, maybe those people were lucky as long as they weren’t too wierd)

Even though you have to figure out which compounds work for you- give results with tolerable sides- none of this shit is new. Most steroids were synthesized before the year 2000. You don’t have to figure out what a good dose or pinning schedule is good for a specific drug- just start low or medium, see how you do on it. Lean on the info that’s out here and see how others use the compounds. It’s all mostly prettybwell figured out, just not for your specific body. You wanna pin Ace every day like me? Lots of people think that’s a good smart idea. Lots of smart people did fine or got away with less frequency too.

I dunno maybe I’m rambling did that answer your question? If I got shit wrong somebody will swoop in and save you from my retarded advice. Drugs are bad don’t do steroids. There, some good smart advice to finish it off haha