T3 with HGH

How many of you guys are running T3 with your GH since it lowers natural T3? Running into any issues if you're not? Want to do a 6 month go on HGH starting sometime next year and trying to assess the importance of this. Thanks.
 
You might want to research this article from 2006 By Anthony Roberts
Just a word of caution, the Anthony Roberts article has been heavily critiqued as nonsense by some reputable people. Roberts really has no background or credibility to be hypothesizing on such theories.

Frankly, it's wrong. But don't take my word for it. Start here:

GH and T4 article by Mark Stent [Archive] - AFboard (specifically the comments from ulter & macro - if those names aren't familiar, you're a fucking pup like a majority of meso).

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Exactly

That's what I meant by researching the article itself (not the content) that MasterChief07 posted (sorry, shoulda been more specific)

The Vid I posted by Dr. Rand McClain seems to be more informative (IMO)

He talks about "Bodybuilding Legends" - Bro'Lore :)
 
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The relationships between GH secretion and thyroid function, as well as the effects of rhGH administration on thyroid hormone levels have been the subject of numerous studies.

The data of Cacciari et al. [1], presented 30 years ago, indicated that the risk of inducing an alteration in thyroid function in hypopituitary patients during rhGH therapy was only slight and that the abnormal values of thyroxine (T4) and triiodothyronine (T3) returned to normal limits during follow-up.

Next, Gács and Bános [2] reported that rhGH therapy in children with idiopathic GHD reduced T4 secretion and affected the peripheral metabolism of thyroid hormones, resulting in an increase of T3.

In 1994, Jørgensen et al. [3] reported that, in GH-deficient adults, rhGH administration stimulated peripheral T4 to T3 conversion in a dose-dependent manner and influenced circadian rhythm of thyrotropin (TSH) secretion. Moreover, in some of those patients before rhGH administration, serum T3 levels were subnormal despite T4 substitution and normalised during the therapy.

As it was shown that rhGH administration might induce a fall in serum T4, it seemed probable that GHD could mask secondary hypothyroidism in some patients with hypopituitarism. Recently, Agha et al. [4] proved that rhGH administration really led to „unmasking” hypothyroidism in hypopituitary adults. Similar were the observations of Losa et al. [5], who reported that, in adults with GHD, administration of rhGH therapy was associated with a significant decrease of free T4 (FT4) in first 6 months of treatment.


[OA] Smyczynska J, Hilczer M, Stawerska R, Lewinski A. Thyroid function in children with growth hormone (GH) deficiency during the initial phase of GH replacement therapy - clinical implications. Thyroid Res 2010;3(1):2. http://thyroidresearchjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1756-6614-3-2

BACKGROUND: Normal thyroid hormone secretion or appropriate L-thyroxine (L-T4) substitution is necessary for the optimal effect of the growth hormone (GH) administration on growth rate. The decrease of free thyroxine (FT4) levels at recombinant human GH (rhGH) therapy onset has been reported in several studies. The aim of the present study was to evaluate the effect of rhGH administration on thyrotropin (TSH) and FT4 serum concentrations in children with GH deficiency (GHD) during the 1st year of therapy, as well as to assess potential indications to thyroid hormone supplementation in them.

PATIENTS AND METHODS: The analysis involved data of 75 children (59 boys, 16 girls) with disorders of GH secretion (GHD, neurosecretory dysfunction - NSD) and partial GH inactivity (inactGH), who were treated with rhGH for - at least - one year. In all the children, body height and height velocity (HV) were assessed before and after 1 year of therapy, while TSH, FT4, IGF-I and IGFBP-3 before treatment and after 3-6 months and 1 year of treatment. In the patients, who revealed hypothyroidism (HypoT), an appropriate L-T4 substitution was introduced immediately. The incidence of HypoT, occurring during the initial phase of rhGH therapy, was assessed, as well as its influence on the therapy effectiveness.

RESULTS: Before rhGH substitution, there were no significant differences in either auxological indices or TSH and FT4 secretion, or IGF-I concentration and its bioavailability among the groups of patients. During the initial 3-6 months of rhGH administration, a significant decrease of FT4 serum concentration, together with a significant increase of IGF-I SDS and IGF-I/IGFBP-3 molar ratio was observed in all the studied groups. In 17 children, HypoT was diagnosed and L-T4 substitution was administered. Despite similar IGF-I secretion increase, the improvement of HV presented significantly lower in children with HypoT than in those who remained euthyroid all the time.

CONCLUSIONS: The incidence of HypoT during the initial phase of GH treatment in children with GHD and the negative effect of even transient thyroid hormone deficiency on the growth rate should be taken into account.
 
I have read the studies, at first it says that it goes back to normal then it says that we should keep an eye, and administer T4 could be needed.

Am I reading it wrong?
 
Thanks for the responses guys. I am inclined to trust a doctor's opinion more than any others and the Doc in that vid seems to think there isn't a reason to supplement thyroid meds on HGH...

@Michael Scally MD thank you for posting that information, but I must admit it is largely over my head! What would you personally recommend? Thank you.
 
Send to



Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1994 Nov;41(5):609-14.
Growth hormone administration stimulates energy expenditure and extrathyroidal conversion of thyroxine to triiodothyronine in a dose-dependent manner and suppresses circadian thyrotrophin levels: studies in GH-deficient adults.
Jørgensen JO1, Møller J, Laursen T, Orskov H, Christiansen JS, Weeke J.
Author information

Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
The impact of exogenous GH on thyroid function remains controversial although most data add support to a stimulation of peripheral T4 to T3 conversion. For further elucidation we evaluated iodothyronine and circadian TSH levels in GH-deficient patients as part of a GH dose-response study.

PATIENTS:
Eight GH-deficient adults, who received stable T4 substitution due to central hypothyroidism; two patients, who were euthyroid without T4 supplementation were studied separately.

DESIGN:
All patients were initially studied after at least 4 weeks without GH followed by 3 consecutive 4-week periods in fixed order during which they received daily doses of 1, 2 and 4 IU of GH/m2 body surface area. The patients were hospitalized for 24 hours at the end of each period.

MEASUREMENTS:
Circulating total and free concentrations of T4 and T3, total rT3 and TSH were measured once at the end of each study period. Circadian TSH levels were recorded during the period without GH and during GH treatment with 2 IU GH.

RESULTS:
Highly significant GH dose-dependent increases in total and free T3 and a reduction in rT3 were observed. The T3/T4 ratio also increased with increasing GH dosages (P < 0.001). In seven patients subnormal T3 levels were recorded in the period off GH, despite T4 levels well within the normal range. Resting energy expenditure also increased and correlated with free T3 levels (r = 0.47, P < 0.05). The circadian TSH levels exhibited a significant nocturnal increase during the period without GH, whereas GH therapy significantly suppressed the TSH levels and blunted the circadian rhythm (mean TSH levels (mU/l) 0.546 +/- 0.246 (no GH) vs 0.066 +/- 0.031 (2 IU GH) (P < 0.05)). The two euthyroid non-T4 substituted patients exhibited qualitatively similar changes in all parameters.

CONCLUSIONS:
GH administration stimulated peripheral T4 to T3 conversion in a dose-dependent manner. Serum T3 levels were subnormal despite T4 substitution when the patients were off GH but normalized with GH therapy. Energy expenditure increased with GH and correlated with free T3 levels. GH caused a significant blunting of serum TSH. These findings suggest that GH plays a distinct role in the physiological regulation of thyroid function in general, and of peripheral T4 metabolism in particular.

PMID:

7828350
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

mands
 
Obligatory L-T4 supplementation from the beginning of rhGH therapy in euthyroid patients has not been recommended [17] due to a little evidence for the development of clinically significant hypothyroidism in most of previously euthyroid patients [13] and spontaneous recovery to pre-treatment thyroid function in most cases [13, 15, 17, 18].

This is the most important part.
The study posted by dr scally is that you should check
Bloods and unless the hgh administration reveal a dormant hypothyroidism, there is no need to administer t4. Because you will have a spontaneous recovery after a while.
 
Obligatory L-T4 supplementation from the beginning of rhGH therapy in euthyroid patients has not been recommended [17] due to a little evidence for the development of clinically significant hypothyroidism in most of previously euthyroid patients [13] and spontaneous recovery to pre-treatment thyroid function in most cases [13, 15, 17, 18].

This is the most important part.
The study posted by dr scally is that you should check
Bloods and unless the hgh administration reveal a dormant hypothyroidism, there is no need to administer t4. Because you will have a spontaneous recovery after a while.

so you saying no t3/t4 with hgh?
 
Obligatory L-T4 supplementation from the beginning of rhGH therapy in euthyroid patients has not been recommended [17] due to a little evidence for the development of clinically significant hypothyroidism in most of previously euthyroid patients [13] and spontaneous recovery to pre-treatment thyroid function in most cases [13, 15, 17, 18].

This is the most important part.
The study posted by dr scally is that you should check
Bloods and unless the hgh administration reveal a dormant hypothyroidism, there is no need to administer t4. Because you will have a spontaneous recovery after a while.
I agree

While I do appreciate these medical studies being posted here....

They revolve more around GH Deficient individuals (adults, children), HIV patients, etc

I'm not quite sure these "medical studies" would run parallel with "Anti-aging" "Bodybuilding", etc

I'm a healthy individual and my thyroid was fine while on rHGH (numbers within normal range)

Just because I'm using rHGH doesn't mean there is a need to add more drugs (thyroid med)

Maybe there is some confusion between "replacement" dosing (T4/ T3) Vs "supplementation" dosing T3 (Cytomel) for "dicing up" or fat loss. (According to Dr Rand McClain, 25mcgs daily (Cytomel) didn't seem to have much effect for fat loss)

Or maybe I'm just completely wrong here :)
 
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so you saying no t3/t4 with hgh?

I'm saying that if you want to add t3/t4 for increased fat loss do it but don't fool yourself telling the story that you need it.

You don't. So take the consequence of supplementing thyroids meds. The good and the bad ones :)

If you are healthy and never had a problem with your thyroids I don't see the need for t4. But if you want to be sure just draw
Bloods after few weeks of hgh and after 4months for example. Thyroids could be lower at first and then should get back to pre hgh level in few weeks-months.

I did and mine never had a problem even on 5iu hgh a day.


Does adding T4 speed up fat loss? Sure as hell! But that has nothing to do with the hgh IMHO
 
I'm saying that if you want to add t3/t4 for increased fat loss do it but don't fool yourself telling the story that you need it.

You don't. So take the consequence of supplementing thyroids meds. The good and the bad ones :)

If you are healthy and never had a problem with your thyroids I don't see the need for t4. But if you want to be sure just draw
Bloods after few weeks of hgh and after 4months for example. Thyroids could be lower at first and then should get back to pre hgh level in few weeks-months.

I did and mine never had a problem even on 5iu hgh a day.


Does adding T4 speed up fat loss? Sure as hell! But that has nothing to do with the hgh IMHO

thanks ! i allways wasn't sure if t4 its worthy using it in off-season
 
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