SubQ vs IM injection

[RockyP]

This is my plan with low dose deca, Still a ways off for me. Can I ask why hop off? Some people have said not to run the 19s even at low dose long term and others say it’s typically safe. Just wondering your thoughts

I think you can run deca almost year round if you tolerate it, it's a low dosage (100 mg), and you're on TRT / test year round. For me, if things go to plan, I will continue dieting hard into the winter, and plan for a small rebound (hence the NPP) with maintenance calories for 2 months or so to rev the metabolism a bit and then drop the NPP, run test / primo alone for a month or so, then add in the tren. My track record for keeping to schedules / plans like this is abhorrent, so who knows. People say Primo is too expensive to be used as an AI. To them I say, bugger off. If my lipids hold i will plan to run the primo for long stints at low dosages. I really dont like using AI's

 

[wldb33rz]

@wldb33rz This was my next question. Do you plan on reducing the test to get in range or running the ai long term?

I'm lowering the test and will be attempting to not need the AI while on a TRT/cruise. Just trying to find that sweet spot right now. Just dropped test as soon as these labs came back so will be at 140/week. I want to keep test optimially high while keeping everything else in check.

 

[wldb33rz]

E2: 110

I guess i should also note that I have been taking an estrogen supplement stack of DCI, CDG, and DIM to help downregulate aromatase and help clear e2 in general and prevent reuptake.

D-Chiro-Inositol: 1000mg/day 500mg am/pm
Calcium D-Glucarate: 2000mg/day 500mg with meals and before bed
DIM: 300mg/day in the morning

I started the DCI prior to the TRT starting. I also picked up the CDG and DIM about 2-3 weeks after starting, so unsure how much that is reflected in these numbers yet.

 

[ChemBB]

Switched to pinning SubQ due to scar tissue buildup in glutes several years ago.

Cons:
- You can only pin 1mL unless you fancy doing multiple pins

Pros:
- No pain
- Steadier blood concentrations

Clinical Literature

• Pharmacokinetics, safety, and patient acceptability of subcutaneous vs intramuscular testosterone injection (pilot study)
• Testosterone Therapy With Subcutaneous Injections: A Safe, Practical, and Reasonable Option
• Pharmacokinetic Profile of Subcutaneous Testosterone Enanthate via Prefilled Autoinjector (Phase II)
• PK-PD of Sub-Q Depot Nandrolone Decanoate (DBS + UPLC-MS)
• Release & absorption rates of IM vs SC oil depots (Part II)

---

What are take-aways here?

1. Same weekly AUC, flatter curve - SubQ absorption is a little slower and continues later into the dosing interval, so the trough is ∼20–25 % higher while the peak is ∼30–40 % lower.
   AUC (weekly exposure) is virtually unchanged = the ester/vehicle (rather than tissue type) is main rate-limiter.
2. Tmax shifts right - T-max moves from ~24 h (IM) to ~36–45 h (SC) for TE. Similar right-shift is seen with Nandrolone and TU.
3. Slightly longer half-life - Autoinjector study: t1/2 = 240 h SC vs 173 h IM.

 

[Tdeck81]

Switched to pinning SubQ due to scar tissue

Thanks for the info. I only started using test, so scar tissue hasn’t been a concern. Unfortunately I don’t think the subq injections are agreeing with me. 24 hours after injection the site swells up and is a little tender for a few days. I’ve done 4 low dose injections, .33ml test 250, same result. I used a 30 gauge 1/2 insulin pins.

Yesterday I did an Im injection in my delt and have had no issues. If this holds I might be switching over? I used a 25 gauge 1 inch pin injecting same dose.

 

[wldb33rz]

Switched to pinning SubQ due to scar tissue buildup in glutes several years ago.

This was my primary concern with this. Test is likely going to be long term and reading here, watching videos, and several blogs and other forums it's a number one complaint about long term use of Test and PED's in general. So, unless i'm doing short courses, I dont see a real need for IM injections considering the risks overall. SubQ works and is painless, less risk, all that fun stuff.

 

[ChemBB]

Thanks for the info. I only started using test, so scar tissue hasn’t been a concern. Unfortunately I don’t think the subq injections are agreeing with me. 24 hours after injection the site swells up and is a little tender for a few days. I’ve done 4 low dose injections, .33ml test 250, same result. I used a 30 gauge 1/2 insulin pins

Happen to know the carrier oil?

You can also try pinning glutes with the 30g 1/2", decent chance it'll wind up SC at that depth

This was my primary concern with this. Test is likely going to be long term and reading here, watching videos, and several blogs and other forums it's a number one complaint about long term use of Test and PED's in general. So, unless i'm doing short courses, I dont see a real need for IM injections considering the risks overall. SubQ works and is painless, less risk, all that fun stuff.

Yeah, for me it got to the point I was physically unable to pin my glutes

Giant ball of scar tissue, had to apply so much force and there was a "crunchy" feeling going through the tissue =(

Swapped to 29g 1/2" and never looked back.

I don't back load them though, I draw with them. So that part takes ages.

 

[wldb33rz]

Yeah, for me it got to the point I was physically unable to pin my glutes

Giant ball of scar tissue, had to apply so much force and there was a "crunchy" feeling going through the tissue =(

Swapped to 29g 1/2" and never looked back.

I don't back load them though, I draw with them. So that part takes ages.

I'm doing daily subq, so after adjusting downward I'm only doing 10.5 units or 0.105ml so even with the GSO test I'm using it only takes a few mins straight from room temp vial. I also do 29g 1/2" needles. Pin the glutes just to keep the oil based shots away from other areas I use to rotate my peptide shots.

In addition to the difficulty injecting once that scar tissue builds up....I've heard several complaints about limited mobility; full range of motion for that muscle group is hindered by that same scar tissue. More of a risk I'd like to avoid.

 

[Tdeck81]

Happen to know the carrier oil?

MCT

 

[Tdeck81]

I was thinking about doing smaller subq doses more frequently to see how I respond. I’m not giving up on subq. but being new to injecting and peds, I decided to try the im route. Truthfully I wasnt sure if the issue was my injection skills or the compound. But since I haven’t had any symptoms with the Im injection I assume the test isn’t the issue.

 

[Cocoagar]

Does anyone think Sub-Q could lead to more aromatization?

I’m very lean, only on 175mg per week and already noticing E2 sides in my nipples, very weird.

 

[ChemBB]

Does anyone think Sub-Q could lead to more aromatization?

I’m very lean, only on 175mg per week and already noticing E2 sides in my nipples, very weird.

No, quite the opposite in fact

SubQ has a longer half life and rate of release, so your E2 spikes will be lower

 

[Tdeck81]

Does anyone think Sub-Q could lead to more aromatization?

I think the general consensus is with smaller more frequent injections, regardless of method, will help control aromatization. The slower absorption via subq is suppose to reduce the the hormone level swings.

 

[trtchin]

I started w Subq in the stomach swapping sides each pin and that worked great but I as was dieting pretty hard once I got to about 12% the lumps seemed to be more noticeable and lasted longer.

I have since switched to subq in the glute and its fine. Unless I go above .5 ml per pin I would stick with subq my levels are great.

 

[Cocoagar]

No, quite the opposite in fact

SubQ has a longer half life and rate of release, so your E2 spikes will be lower

Does it take much longer to saturate in blood?

I’ve read it could take up to 12 weeks to saturate, so it might become a pain in the ass when trying to have bloodwork done to assess. I don’t know…

 

[Tdeck81]

Does it take much longer to saturate in blood?

I’ve read it could take up to 12 weeks to saturate, so it might become a pain in the ass when trying to have bloodwork done to assess. I don’t know…

I wouldn’t say its a pain but I would wait a few extra weeks. My plan is to go quarterly until I’m comfortable. I guess it depends on your goals. I’m setting up basically a cruise dose but if you plan on doing “cycles” you may prefer Im injections.

 

[wldb33rz]

Does it take much longer to saturate in blood?

I’ve read it could take up to 12 weeks to saturate, so it might become a pain in the ass when trying to have bloodwork done to assess. I don’t know…

No, this still levels out with the ester. The difference in absorbtion isnt that great. IM just is immediate spike, whereas the subq is a slightly longer release, we're talking hours though, not days or weeks. The ester determines half-life, and to an extent the carrier oil will also determine some of the absorbtion. So the same 4-6 weeks is when you'll see stable levels.

 

[Tdeck81]

I’ve read it could take up to 12 weeks to saturate,

I’ve read similar reports. Vigorous Steve, regardless of whether you like him or not, did subq injections and didn’t reach full saturation until week 12. Make of it what you will, but I would rather wait a few extra weeks for a potentially more accurate result. I also read body fat percentage makes a difference in the equation too. I have zero direct experience/results.

 

[Cocoagar]

Vigorous Steve, regardless of whether you like him or not

Why would I not like him?

Is there something going on that I missed? I have probably watched 500 hours of his videos.

 

[Tdeck81]

Why would I not like him?

Is there something going on that I missed? I have probably watched 500 hours of his videos.

My apologies…it was a generalized you, to anyone reading, and not specifically directed at “you”. There are some who discount anything that comes from YouTube personalities.

I can’t see or think of a valid reason he would misrepresent that type of info/data.