A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
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Second Amendment
- Thread starter Michael Scally MD
- Start date
What Did the Framers Really Mean?
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/27/opinion/nocera-right-to-bear-arms-means-this.html
Review 'The Second Amendment' is a smart history of guns and the U.S.
'The Second Amendment' is a smart history of guns and the U.S.*-*Los Angeles Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/27/opinion/nocera-right-to-bear-arms-means-this.html
Review 'The Second Amendment' is a smart history of guns and the U.S.
'The Second Amendment' is a smart history of guns and the U.S.*-*Los Angeles Times
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The Second Amendment actually weakens the individual RTBA because it gives the lawyers text to argue over. The 9th and 10th amendments do not.
The NRA essentially wrote the first anti gun law in 1934. Their record hasn't improved IMO.
In any case, the largest most deadly weapons of the era were ships of war, and those were mostly owned by individuals. The framers didn't include an amendment on individual RTBA because it wasn't an issue any more than the right to own farm equipment. The Second Amendment, like all the BOR amendments, was intended to appease the concerns of the States that were required to ratify the Constitution.
The NRA essentially wrote the first anti gun law in 1934. Their record hasn't improved IMO.
In any case, the largest most deadly weapons of the era were ships of war, and those were mostly owned by individuals. The framers didn't include an amendment on individual RTBA because it wasn't an issue any more than the right to own farm equipment. The Second Amendment, like all the BOR amendments, was intended to appease the concerns of the States that were required to ratify the Constitution.
biebs111
New Member
i dont know how true it is, but i heard that almost all of the cannons that were used in Massachussetts at the beginning of the revolution were privately owned. if this is true, what would the modern day example be? RPGs?
It's true enough.
Today's cannon equivalent is probably the high powered rifle. That's assuming any revolution here would NOT be fought on a conventional battlefield.
blazinshotguns
New Member
I love living in texas
I guess the term "well regulated" is open to interpretation. Many of the folks currently bearing arms do not appear to be well regulated.
I don't see a revolution here, who's left to be in it? And your assumption is correct. It certainly wouldn't be on a conventional battlefield. And your also correct that it's the rifle, specifically the M1 Garand. You want one? You a citizen? Then your also part of the militia. Fill out the paper work, mail it in and the government will send you an M1 through the mail (after qualifying on the rifle range). This is all in the codification of the second amendment. Write to the department of civilian markmanship.
The last time I looked this was still all GTG around 1996. I don't think there has been an amendment since then.
I'm definitely not predicting a revolution. Bleating is still as ineffective as ever. A group of disillusioned veterans could do quite a bit of damage, though.
I'm pretty sure the CMP requires payment for an M1 these days. It was made pseudo-private right around 1996, or maybe 2000.
Right you are about bleating Flenser (that's funny). And I didn't know they went the way of the post office. They also charged back then also. I think a couple of guy's received new one's right out of the crate. Cost them about $300 I think. Most of the time I don't think they were new.
Prices are still pretty reasonable for what you get. I had been looking at getting some 60% AR receivers for something to play with, but now... I know next to nothing about the M1. Have to do some research.
I looked into this a few years ago and I believe you had to be affiliated (member) with their organization or an approved club or gun/shooting organization to qualify for the purchase. Funny thing, some of the approved clubs were the local high school ROTC programs in my area. Didn't look into it any further it as I already had an M1.
Had to be an affiliated member of what? You are a citizen of your State and also a citizen of the united states. You are the militia, and the militia has nothing to do with the reserves.The Department of civilian marksmanship, if I recall correctly, was initially located within the Department of the army, and was created in order to comply with the second amendment. This had nothing to do with a gun club. If the militia was called up you had to present yourself armed. You can find all this in the codification of the second amendment. I don't have the energy to look all this up again.
Well I did have the energy. Here's the first page of the CMP website. To save you time and energy, just read the 2nd sentence.
Civilian Marksmanship Sales
The Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) is a U.S. government-chartered program that promotes firearms safety training and rifle practice for all qualified U.S. citizens with special emphasis on youth. Any U.S. citizen who is legally not prohibited from owning a firearm may purchase a military surplus rifle from the CMP, provided they are a member of a CMP affiliated club. The CMP operates through a network of affiliated shooting clubs and state associations that covers every state in the U.S. The clubs and associations offer firearms safety training and marksmanship courses as well as the opportunity for continued practice and competition.
The CMP was created by the U.S. Congress as part of the 1903 War Department Appropriations Act. The original purpose was to provide civilians an opportunity to learn and practice marksmanship skills so they would be skilled marksmen if later called on to serve in the U.S. military. Over the years the emphasis of the program shifted to focus on youth development through marksmanship. From 1916 until 1996 the CMP was administered by the U.S. Army. Title XVI of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1996 (Public Law 104-106, 10 February 1996) created the Corporation for the Promotion of Rifle Practice & Firearms Safety (CPRPFS) to take over administration and promotion of the CMP. The CPRPFS is a tax-exempt non-profit 501(c)(3) corporation that has been Federally chartered by the U.S. Congress, but is not an agency of the U.S. Government (Title 36, United States Code, Section 40701 et seq). Apart from a donation of surplus .22 and .30 caliber rifles in the Army's inventory to the CMP, the CMP receives no Federal funding.
Very interesting. If you will look a bit further down towards the middle you will see "The original purpose was to provide civilians an opportunity to learn and practice marksmanship skills so they would be skilled marksmen if later called on to serve in the U.S. military". What a novel way to put it. I got involved in all this prior to 1996. At that time The army was sending the M1 Garand thru the U.S. mail to applicants that filled out the paper work and qualified at a designated rifle range. It had NOTHING to do with youth development or firearm safety. I remember Diana Fienstein was a leading advocate of gun control at that time, and still is, and was trying to get the department closed. It would be interesting to look at the authors of that bill. I've also discovered how difficult it is to dig up facts off the internet. But that's all the kids got now.
Did a little more checking and I believe I found the answer. This is from the FAQs section at CMP.org. I guess I qualify, since I'm a VFW member (cheap beer and lots of lies).
I belong to a Veteran’s Organization, does that count as an affiliated club?
Yes, starting in 2005 Congressionally chartered veterans’ organizations (VFW, American Legion, etc.) are recognized as CMP special affiliates. Any member of these organizations, who wishes to purchase military surplus items from the CMP and fulfills all other requirements, may purchase those items by submitting proof of membership.
How do I become a member of the CMP?
At this time there is no direct membership in the CMP. Membership is through one of our affiliated clubs or organizations. There are currently over 1800 affiliated organizations. All of our shooting events are accessible to anyone regardless of their affiliation or club membership, but to purchase anything from the CMP, an individual must show proof of belonging to an affiliated club or organization.
Probably the DOD decided to eliminate the expense end of the situation and allow a private entity to handle the transfers. By the way, the M1 model is sold , all gone. The Garands are strating at $625 for a service grade , up to $3000 for a sniper grade.
I belong to a Veteran’s Organization, does that count as an affiliated club?
Yes, starting in 2005 Congressionally chartered veterans’ organizations (VFW, American Legion, etc.) are recognized as CMP special affiliates. Any member of these organizations, who wishes to purchase military surplus items from the CMP and fulfills all other requirements, may purchase those items by submitting proof of membership.
How do I become a member of the CMP?
At this time there is no direct membership in the CMP. Membership is through one of our affiliated clubs or organizations. There are currently over 1800 affiliated organizations. All of our shooting events are accessible to anyone regardless of their affiliation or club membership, but to purchase anything from the CMP, an individual must show proof of belonging to an affiliated club or organization.
Probably the DOD decided to eliminate the expense end of the situation and allow a private entity to handle the transfers. By the way, the M1 model is sold , all gone. The Garands are strating at $625 for a service grade , up to $3000 for a sniper grade.
"
"Though a militia was mustered in Spanish Florida in the 1500s,[13] the modern Army National Guard traces its origins to December 13, 1636, the day the Massachusetts Bay Colony's General Courtpassed an act calling for the creation of three regiments by organizing existing separate militia companies in the town around Boston.[14] The creation of the militia regiments was caused by the perceived need to defend the Bay colony against American Indians, as well as colonists and military members from other European countries who were operating in North America, including: the Frenchin what is now Canada; the Spanish in what is now Florida, The Carolinas, and Georgia; and theDutch in what was then New Netherland, which comprised what is now parts of New York,Connecticut, Rhode Island and Massachusetts.[15][16]
The General Court required that all able-bodied men between ages of 16 and 60, except judges and clergy members, be considered members of the colony's militia, which was organized as the North, South, and East Regiments. Militia members were required to equip themselves, take part in regular training, and report to their units when called. (The lineage of the North, South and East Regiments is maintained in the 21st century by: 1st Squadron, 182nd Cavalry Regiment and 1st Battalion, 181st Infantry Regiment (North); 1st Battalion, 101st Field Artillery Regiment (South); and the 101st Engineer Battalion (East).)[17]
This goes back a long way but the courts definition of who was the militia has not been challenged per se. As we know, cannons were mostly owned by private individuals. But access to modern arms was required by the militia.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Good history lesson, but since we still have the freedom to buy arms from dealers, individuals or have them passed down in families. I really don't see a conflict in CMP requiring some type of affiliation in order to acquire the arms that have been transferred to them by the DOD. "Regulated" is the key word. There has to be some regulation, if for no other reason than to display responsible management and frankly, CMP's requirement is extremely lenient.
A lot of changes have occurred since 1775 when the constitution was framed, requiring some modified interpretation regarding to the 2nd amendment, which I am ok with. Our society has changed. I am hopeful that policies will not change to the point we are not able to have arms.
I'm just an old retired Jarhead that has enjoyed the rights and freedoms of owning firearms responsibly and do not have issues with the restrictions of today. Face it, if you arm every Tom and Harry Dick, would you feel safe? Way too many FU people in the world as it is. IF you're a responsible Tom or Harry Dick, no prob.
A lot of changes have occurred since 1775 when the constitution was framed, requiring some modified interpretation regarding to the 2nd amendment, which I am ok with. Our society has changed. I am hopeful that policies will not change to the point we are not able to have arms.
I'm just an old retired Jarhead that has enjoyed the rights and freedoms of owning firearms responsibly and do not have issues with the restrictions of today. Face it, if you arm every Tom and Harry Dick, would you feel safe? Way too many FU people in the world as it is. IF you're a responsible Tom or Harry Dick, no prob.
Thanks for the service Greendog1. Yes most of us can still obtain arms, but it's not a right or a freedom to do so. They've made it a priveledge. And a priveledge can be given or taken away. You have to register you firearm, and if you want to carry it, you'll have to get permission to do so (license). I'll have to agree that society's become so fucked up and fractured that something had to be done. I just a little tired of hearing how FREE we are. There is actually little we can do without first obtaining permission to do it or a license. As you can tell, I'm not a fan of the federal government. But I'm a realist, <>
Thanks for your service greendog1. Yes most of us can still obtain firearms but it is no longer a right or a freedom to do so, it is a privilege. and a privilege can be given or taken away.I agree that society has become so fucked up and fractured that something has to be done, but I get a little tired of hearing how free we are. There is precious little you can do without some kind of permission or license. As you can tell I'm not a fan of this federal government. their the ones that have always created the situations that lead to problems, and then turn around and say their the ones that are needed to fix them, and it just gets worse. WE are no longer in control.
