Religion and Politics

[Grizzly]

I guess it's partially my fault here. I should use the Bible and Chrisitanity as interchangable, though I have since they are the same thing to me. I should have said Plato, etc. predate Christianity by hundreds of years.

As far as predating the Bible, how about Babylon, Sumeria, Egypt? Any of those have a drastically different moral code than that found in the Bible? Not really. IIRC, "The Epic of Gilgamesh" is the single oldest existing, written story known to man. Nothing different in there than the Bible.

edit- Oh yeah, and you may have done some mispeaking, too. Or maybe you're just......WRONG!!!! You can argue that God, through his majesty and super powers and whatnot is the ultimate source of morality and it is through him that we know what is right and wrong innately. However, to say that it is from the Bible is ridiculous. Every other religion on earth is similar and none of them read the Bible. I fucking hate that goddamned book, but I live, more or less, by the code within.

 

[CyniQ]

I guess it's partially my fault here. I should use the Bible and Chrisitanity as interchangable, though I have since they are the same thing to me. I should have said Plato, etc. predate Christianity by hundreds of years.

As far as predating the Bible, how about Babylon, Sumeria, Egypt? Any of those have a drastically different moral code than that found in the Bible? Not really. IIRC, "The Epic of Gilgamesh" is the single oldest existing, written story known to man. Nothing different in there than the Bible.

edit- Oh yeah, and you may have done some mispeaking, too. Or maybe you're just......WRONG!!!! You can argue that God, through his majesty and super powers and whatnot is the ultimate source of morality and it is through him that we know what is right and wrong innately. However, to say that it is from the Bible is ridiculous. Every other religion on earth is similar and none of them read the Bible. I fucking hate that goddamned book, but I live, more or less, by the code within.

Glad you brought it up. The Epic of Gilgamesh actually talks about the flood of Noah's day. And how God told a man to tear down his house and build a ship, and take aboard the ship the seed of all living things. So you're right, nothing different there than in the Bible. Doesn't that reinforce the idea that the Bible is an accurate historic text?? If, in fact, every religion on earth has roughly the same moral code. Doesn't that support the Bible record that we all came from one man and woman? We then all got our sense of morality from our parents and their God. How does that not make sense?

If you keep making my points for me, I'll just shut up... Is that part of your strategy???

 

[Grizzly]

Ok, so I've only read it 5 times and the last was 3 years ago, but I don't recall anything at all about tearing down the house and building a ship. The flood, yes. The ark, no.

I was going to bring up the ark in some thread or another some day. Is it me or is that just the most ridiculous, impossible story in the world. It supposedly happened something like 8,000 years ago, si? Ok, with an average of 200 animals becoming extinct each year(it's more than that now and less than that then, so I made up a general average) there was 1.6 millions animals PLUS however many there are today still in existence that had to be fit onto a ship.

How many animals are there in existence today? This, of course, includes virii, bacteria, plants and everything in creation. Which really shows how much god loves us by telling his henchman to bring diseases along on the boat when they could have easily been eradicated, but I digress.

This is made out of a single house? Yep, pretty fucking believable. The whole story is so ridiculously impossible that it can only be taken in the most metaphorical of senses....but everything in the bible is true and that's how it is....except when it's convenient to say it's metaphorical....except even the metaphors are totally true...except when they don't make sense....but that's why they are truthful metaphors that are totally real and really happened...except....

 

[swing]

May I interject? I'm not sure about other religious views outside of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. A couple of Koranic narration are mentioned below:

"Do not those who disbelieve see that the heavens and the earth were fused then we ripped them apart, and We created from water every living thing, do they not believe? Chapter 21:30 (Written over 1400 years ago, yet appears to be a perfect description of the Big Bang). The arabic term 'fataqa' gives the impression of something be violently ripped apart.

"It is We who created the universe, and We cause it to continuously expand."
(Stephen Hawking stated, "The universe is not static, as had previously been thought, it is expanding.)"

I've learned to respect this book while I was working on my Masters. If I had the time I would include more verses related to science.

My belief is that God would provide evidence to support the validity of his revelation. Afterall, wouldn't he know that humans would fabricate the own religious doctrines? This notion that one must have "faith" and abandon their reasoning is asinine. My professor (who was Muslim) showed me in the Qur'an where it stated, "Verily, this is a book for those who think."

 

[Bob Smith]

(Stephen Hawking stated, "The universe is not static, as had previously been thought, it is expanding.)"

I read something recently that stated a new theory about the universe not expanding infinitely (more or less as Hawking believes), but rather it expands and contracts in cycles.

 

[swing]

I recall Einstein stating his belief the universe was static, but if my memory serves me correctly, he may have reversed his position prior to his death. I have read that some scientists hold the theory the universe will contract once it reaches it's limits (whatever that may be). I believe that any valid religious text should be able to stand up to the criticism of science. Afterall, isn't God omniscient?

 

[Grizzly]

He's also omnipotent and omnibenevolent. Evil exists, therefore, God can not. At least, not the god of the aforementioned religious texts.

 

[Grizzly]

And don't give me the "free will" argument either. If I have the power to do as I chose, even if it is contrary to the desires of the omnipotent super power, then he's obviously not so omnipotent after all.

I don't how well that argument will stand, as it just popped into my head, but it still sounds good.

 

[Mark Kerr]

Actually, homosexuality is quite rampant in nature. A quick Google search should provide you with a plethora of websites from which to choose.

 

[Grizzly]

HAH! Told you so.

 

[CyniQ]

He's also omnipotent and omnibenevolent. Evil exists, therefore, God can not. At least, not the god of the aforementioned religious texts.

I don't think omnibenevolent is a word, is it? I guess you can put anything after the word omni. There's a company in CA called OmniPop.

Anyway if you think that God being good means that evil cannot exist...

Did you getted choked-out in a fight last night??

 

[CyniQ]

Ok, so I've only read it 5 times and the last was 3 years ago, but I don't recall anything at all about tearing down the house and building a ship. The flood, yes. The ark, no.

BTW The ark is most definitely mentioned in the Epic of Gilgamesh. Although he got the dimensions wrong. Noah's Ark had a length to width ratio of 6 to 1. and a length to height ratio of 10 to 1 with a total length of 440' (or somewhere thereabouts ). This has been proven to be a seaworthy structure. Gilgamesh's vessel was a cube of 200' on each side.

 

[Grizzly]

I don't think omnibenevolent is a word, is it? I guess you can put anything after the word omni. There's a company in CA called OmniPop.

Anyway if you think that God being good means that evil cannot exist...

Did you getted choked-out in a fight last night??

Omnibenevolent: all good. All good implies the absence of any bad.

Omnipotent: all powerful. All powerful.

Put them together and you get a contraidiction in godliness. Either he's all good, but not all powerful or he's all powerful but not all good because he can't be both since evil exists which means he must not be powerful enough to stop it or he's not all good because he doesn't mind the existence of evil.

 

[Grizzly]

BTW The ark is most definitely mentioned in the Epic of Gilgamesh. Although he got the dimensions wrong. Noah's Ark had a length to width ratio of 6 to 1. and a length to height ratio of 10 to 1 with a total length of 440' (or somewhere thereabouts ). This has been proven to be a seaworthy structure. Gilgamesh's vessel was a cube of 200' on each side.

You going to admit the raging metaphor of this situation or are you going to try and assert that a single house, even Bill Gate's house, could be used to construct such a vessel?

 

[Bob Smith]

You going to admit the raging metaphor of this situation or are you going to try and assert that a single house, even Bill Gate's house, could be used to construct such a vessel?

He had barns, too.

 

[CyniQ]

You going to admit the raging metaphor of this situation or are you going to try and assert that a single house, even Bill Gate's house, could be used to construct such a vessel?

I won't be too dogmatic on the subject. But Jesus himself referred to the deeds of Noah. Since he witnessed them personally...

Your statement about the number of species doesn't apply though. The animals boarded the Ark "according to their kinds" (not exact quote). There is no indictation that Border Collies, Boxers, Rottweillers, German Shepards, etc. were present. Merely, two dogs, two cats, two camels. Of course some animals were loaded by sevens.

As I said I'm not going to pound my fist on this one. But the Bible does seem to indicate that it actually occured and is not some sort of allegory.

But I'll say this before you do... I wouldn't want to be the one to clean up all that shit...

 

[CyniQ]

You going to admit the raging metaphor of this situation or are you going to try and assert that a single house, even Bill Gate's house, could be used to construct such a vessel?

Sorry "a single house". I didn't realize what you were trying to say until now. The Bible doesn't say that the ark was built from a house. It doesn't say how long it took to build the Ark either. If you do the math, the account allows for 60 years of construction. GILGAMESH says that it was built in seven days. I'm not sure if he was trying to say that the ark was built FROM the house. Or just that the house would no longer be needed.

edit- the "tear down the house and build a ship" quote was from the E of G. Not the bible. If that wasn't clear.

 

[Weatherlite]

Your statement about the number of species doesn't apply though. The animals boarded the Ark "according to their kinds" (not exact quote). There is no indictation that Border Collies, Boxers, Rottweillers, German Shepards, etc. were present. Merely, two dogs, two cats, two camels. Of course some animals were loaded by sevens.

Just curious...if two dogs got on then how did all of these various breeds come about later on?

 

[CyniQ]

Just curious...if two dogs got on then how did all of these various breeds come about later on?

Wow. Okay. There are boy dogs, and girl dogs...


How do you like my new sig???

 

[Grizzly]

Just curious...if two dogs got on then how did all of these various breeds come about later on?

Well, breeding and creating breeds is relatively simple. One mates two dogs with desireable characteristics and continues to do so until the new breed comes about. I'm pretty sure that's how it works anyhow.

However, I'm pretty sure you can't take two, or two hundred, cocker spaniels, breed them and come out with anything other than a cocker spaniel. So, in that sense, obviously the "one dog(generic term), one cat(generic term)" can not be correct.

Plus, what constitutes a dog and what constitutes the one cat? You ain't getting a house cat from a lion and you're not getting a wolf from a schnauser.

How did Noah keep the fish without glass? The fish you ask...si, if the ocean and lakes swelled to proportions much, much larger than they were to begin with, then entire ecological system in the ocean/lake would change/die. You can't have plants living in 4 feet survive when they are suddenly in 4000 feet of water. Doesn't work. Thus, Noah must have taken not only the land animals, but also the fishes and sea plants. How did he do that?