Qingdao Sigma Chemical Co., Ltd (International, US, EU, Canada and Australia domestic

[Ghoul]

Yes makes perfect sense when weighing risks vs benefit. Do you use Tesamorelin?

No. I considered it for a minute years ago, but the dangers, unlike the exaggerated GLP hazards, are too risky in my opinion, and the abdominal fat returns when you stop using it, so you're committed to permanently exposing yourself to developing diabetes, among other health issues. I could see it for short term body building competitive use, but long term? Forget it.

As a general rule, increased dose and/or duration of exposure increase risk.

 

[iris]

Good to know, thanks for the info on this. What are your thoughts on uncompleted studies ie. Reta, Cagri, Maz?

Are you from Novo Nordisk?

 

[Ghoul]

Are you from Novo Nordisk?

Tirz is Eli Lilly.

Read more.

 

[iris]

Tirz is Eli Lilly.

Read more.

Exactly.....

 

[AlexDavis43]

Not sure if the rules are different for promos.

For the HGH & Fat loss products promo: can I order international if the products are in stock US domestic? (looking to get international pricing; I don't mind the longer shipping time)

@Qingdao Sigma Chemicals are the warehouse rules the same for this promo? Can I choose to order international if the products are available US domestic?

 

[Trailmixed]

Are you from Novo Nordisk?

dammmit. Gotta make another burner

 

[Ghoul]

dammmit. Gotta make another burner

Should've gone to Novo or Lilly.

They cut commission checks much faster than Tracy does for all the business I send his way....

 

[Qingdao Sigma Chemicals]

@Qingdao Sigma Chemicals are the warehouse rules the same for this promo? Can I choose to order international if the products are available US domestic?

Starting from July, if the item is available domestic, it can be purchased only domestic

 

[baxter0312]

I was drinking an average of 4 drinks a day until I started Mounjaro. I lost all interest in drinking after that first week. Didn't touch alcohol for a few months. It's really pretty amazing. I have the occasional beer or glass of whiskey now and then but only once per week at most

Sounds like naltrexone. But again if an alcoholic wants to drink he just won’t take the injection or take the pill if it’s going to interfere with his drinking

 

[Deimosx]

No. I considered it for a minute years ago, but the dangers, unlike the exaggerated GLP hazards, are too risky in my opinion, and the abdominal fat returns when you stop using it, so you're committed to permanently exposing yourself to developing diabetes, among other health issues. I could see it for short term body building competitive use, but long term? Forget it.

As a general rule, increased dose and/or duration of exposure increase risk.

I must have not researched tesamorelin enough, I thought it seemed alright. I got 2 kits of the shit. Got any links on it?

 

[Ghoul]

I must have not researched tesamorelin enough, I thought it seemed alright. I got 2 kits of the shit. Got any links on it?

Here's the thing. Everyone's got their own risk tolerance, certainly do your own thing.

I'm not a fan of having to monitor for higher glucose levels, but I'm most concerned about the acceleration of undiagnosed cancer. If it were one and done, I could deal with the limited risk for long term benefit, but the visceral fat quickly returns in unless Tesa is taken continuously. GLP/GIP offer similar benefits, without the risk of a slow growing tumor somewhere getting turbocharged. That's why it's only approved for people with HIV. Everyone can benefit from reduced visceral fat, but it's only in this population is the risk considered worth it, in some part, reading between the lines, because of the severe psychological effects of simultaneous muscle loss and rapid and abnormally distributed (ie freaky looking) fat gain in HIV patients.

Growth hormone and tesamorelin in the management of HIV-associated lipodystrophy - PMC

HIV-infected patients on highly active antiretroviral therapy (HAART) develop a complex of body composition changes known, including peripheral fat loss (lipoatrophy) and central fat accumulation (lipohypertrophy). These changes may cause ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"During the continuation phase of the studies, the improvement in VAT was not sustained among patients who were re-randomized to placebo after 26 weeks of therapy with tesamorelin (T-P). However, those randomized to continue tesamorelin for an additional 26 weeks (T-T) experienced a sustained reduction in VAT....

The rapid reversal of the tesamorelin effects on body fat and lipid levels upon discontinuation of therapy is probably explained by the reversal of IGF-1 increases. "

 

[Middus]

Sounds like naltrexone. But again if an alcoholic wants to drink he just won’t take the injection or take the pill if it’s going to interfere with his drinking

Don't know why y'all keep comparing alcohol to food. Alcohol is a recreational drug. Like Weed or Opium. No one needs alcohol to live. lol

 

[AlexDavis43]

Here's the thing. Everyone's got their own risk tolerance, certainly do your own thing.

I'm not a fan of having to monitor for higher glucose levels, but I'm most concerned about the acceleration of undiagnosed cancer. If it were one and done, I could deal with the limited risk for long term benefit, but the visceral fat quickly returns in unless Tesa is taken continuously. GLP/GIP offer similar benefits, without the risk of a slow growing tumor somewhere getting turbocharged. That's why it's only approved for people with HIV. Everyone can benefit from reduced visceral fat, but it's only in this population is the risk considered worth it, in some part, reading between the lines, because of the severe psychological effects of simultaneous muscle loss and rapid and abnormally distributed (ie freaky looking) fat gain in HIV patients.

Growth hormone and tesamorelin in the management of HIV-associated lipodystrophy - PMC

HIV-infected patients on highly active antiretroviral therapy (HAART) develop a complex of body composition changes known, including peripheral fat loss (lipoatrophy) and central fat accumulation (lipohypertrophy). These changes may cause ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"During the continuation phase of the studies, the improvement in VAT was not sustained among patients who were re-randomized to placebo after 26 weeks of therapy with tesamorelin (T-P). However, those randomized to continue tesamorelin for an additional 26 weeks (T-T) experienced a sustained reduction in VAT....

The rapid reversal of the tesamorelin effects on body fat and lipid levels upon discontinuation of therapy is probably explained by the reversal of IGF-1 increases. "

You think the benefits of GLP1s are maintained after discontinuation? (study)

Or you still on the GLP1-for-life train

rapid weight regain doesn't seem great for organ health

 

[Red-5]

Same here, all drinking stopped. But did you get constipated or get a diarrhea at least once on it?

I had constipation beyond just the gastric slowing and lower calls. Had to take Metamucil or stool softener pretty regularly. My brother did not tho ‍

 

[bigead]

You mean glass bottles?

No the one's I have are plastic. 30 ml plastic bottles

 

[Middus]

You think the benefits of GLP1s are maintained after discontinuation? (study)

Or you still on the GLP1-for-life train

rapid weight regain doesn't seem great for organ health
View attachment 287696

Weight will be regained with current GLPs. The thing about fat cells is that when you get them, you get them. They don't go anywhere. They just store fat or release them. Adipocytes don't die (except if one takes Adipotide.. but that is another kettle of fish)

Folks in their younger years will talk about eating like horses but not gaining weight. Well if the body keeps producing adipocytes, they are building a larger capacity "fat wallet" Eventually excess begins to accumulate in said wallets. The key strategy now is to make sure children never get the capacity to build "massive" wallets that will count against them in the future. For now, GLPS may be lifelong or at least less frequently contained in the maintenance phase. Remember these participants were not advised about how to wean off or taper. Recent studies have shown better weight control in those who taper off.
Then most importantly, there are newer drugs that actually target the liver more.
FYI there are at least 22 compounds varying from small molecules to peptides that are being researched.. Their activity varies from mitochondrial uncoupling (what DNP does, but safer) to long term appetite suppression to mechanisms similar to the existing GLPs.
There is a reason why Big Pharma is excited. The US is 'fat' Eventually folks will figure out a way to out medicate obesity. Especially with the increasing focus of Nutritional epi and weight management medicine being maintaining healthy body homeostasis/metabolism and not necessarily maintaining standard BMI

 

[gburdell]

In general, I prefer to minimize risk by not being an early adopter. By the time I used Sema (or Tirz), millions of "Patient years" of clinical experience had been established by their initial use for diabetes, and of course that was built on a 30 year history of earlier short acting GLPs.

Personally, while I respect adventurousness into new compounds (I worked my way through TIHKAL and PIHKAL decades ago if you know what those are), the question I'd be asking myself is "What are you trying to gain that offsets the additional risk, however small, of drugs we have significantly less experience with?"

So far all I've seen is possibly low single digit greater max weight loss potential, which I don't need. Slightly faster liver fat clearance which I don't need. So in my mind it's all additional risk, higher cost, and no benefit.

Again I think a lot of this may stem from thinking of these compounds like diet pills, and the "new ones" are "more effective" so I should use those.

Also, the primary driver in most of these is not to be "better", but to give each company a unique formulation they can patent and market in order to compete with Tirz.

If tirz or sema work well for you, then definitely don't mess with success.

But reta's "low single digit greater max weight loss" ends up being a what, 20-30% difference between it and tirz?

What I've noticed is that it doesn't have nearly the appetite suppression that tirz did, but it definitely does (for me) cause visceral fat loss and much greater vascularity.

 

[Middus]

Here's the thing. Everyone's got their own risk tolerance, certainly do your own thing.

I'm not a fan of having to monitor for higher glucose levels, but I'm most concerned about the acceleration of undiagnosed cancer. If it were one and done, I could deal with the limited risk for long term benefit, but the visceral fat quickly returns in unless Tesa is taken continuously. GLP/GIP offer similar benefits, without the risk of a slow growing tumor somewhere getting turbocharged. That's why it's only approved for people with HIV. Everyone can benefit from reduced visceral fat, but it's only in this population is the risk considered worth it, in some part, reading between the lines, because of the severe psychological effects of simultaneous muscle loss and rapid and abnormally distributed (ie freaky looking) fat gain in HIV patients.

Growth hormone and tesamorelin in the management of HIV-associated lipodystrophy - PMC

HIV-infected patients on highly active antiretroviral therapy (HAART) develop a complex of body composition changes known, including peripheral fat loss (lipoatrophy) and central fat accumulation (lipohypertrophy). These changes may cause ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"During the continuation phase of the studies, the improvement in VAT was not sustained among patients who were re-randomized to placebo after 26 weeks of therapy with tesamorelin (T-P). However, those randomized to continue tesamorelin for an additional 26 weeks (T-T) experienced a sustained reduction in VAT....

The rapid reversal of the tesamorelin effects on body fat and lipid levels upon discontinuation of therapy is probably explained by the reversal of IGF-1 increases. "

Note: This is a pathological state. HIV itself predisposes to cancer because of weakened immunity. Also HIV and anti retroviral meds is what is causing the lipodystrophy, so it's not shocking that when TESA stops the fat returns.
I did some small research on Tesa because i wanted to add it to my stack. I was confused with all the youtube videos telling us to take Tesa in a fasted state, yet Egrifta (that has been proven to cut visceral fat) comes with no such instructions. I suspect the fasting part is because of concerns about HGH release and carbs in the system.
I eventually started taking tesa when I found a study in healthy individuals albeit very short term, showing that IGF rises but insulin still does what It should do, so perhaps cycling Tesa works.

Effects of a Growth Hormone-Releasing Hormone Analog on Endogenous GH Pulsatility and Insulin Sensitivity in Healthy Men

Context and Objective: Strategies to augment pulsatile GH may be beneficial in patients with excess visceral adiposity, in whom GH secretion is reduced. Th

academic.oup.com

 

[Middus]

If tirz or sema work well for you, then definitely don't mess with success.

But reta's "low single digit greater max weight loss" ends up being a what, 20-30% difference between it and tirz?

What I've noticed is that it doesn't have nearly the appetite suppression that tirz did, but it definitely does (for me) cause visceral fat loss and much greater vascularity.

It's like Ghoul alluded to earlier. Some people think GLPs work by simply cutting appetite. That's GLP1 activity. Reta has glucagon activity to. Cutting the boring details short, people actually burn calories even at rest due to the glucagon activity. It pushes metabolism up a bit, while having a weaker GLP1 activity than Sema. and Tirz

 

[Ghoul]

You think the benefits of GLP1s are maintained after discontinuation? (study)

Or you still on the GLP1-for-life train

rapid weight regain doesn't seem great for organ health
View attachment 287696

I've made my position completely clear. GLP is a hormone. These drugs are hormone supplements. The basic advance that brought us to where we are today was extending their half life from seconds to weeks, similar in effect to adding an ester to testosterone.

Few would advise a guy with low T to go off his TRT after a few months. The same applies to raising GLP levels.

Yes, weight cycling is harmful to health.

Intermittent use of GLPs is a mistake, stemming from a misunderstanding of how they work. There's also ample reason, seemingly a new one every week, coming from medical science to keep GLP (and GIP) levels elevated for life.

Of course this, like every side, disappears once you reach a maintainance dose. The drug "fades into the background".

I've been on maintenance for years, except for a brief transition from Sema to tirz.

The "maintainance dose" is whatever dose you stay on after you've reached your goal weight, and the drug is essentially neutral at that point, unless you gain weight, which would be via "eating beyond your appetite", then the effects kick in again.

For Tirz, 7.5mg. 10mg, 12.5mg or 15mg can be maintainince doses. For Sema it's 1.7mg, 2mg, or 2.4mg.

If you can't get to the minimum maintainance doses without intolerable sides you're supposed to discontinue the drug, per the monographs doctors are supposed to follow, and insurance will cut you off if you can't get there within a year.

.

Weight loss has been unquestionable established as durable as long as maintenance doses are continued.

The problem is a lack of knowledge on the part of patients and less sophisticated providers.

Without understanding how this works, they treat GLPs like a "diet pill". Something like amphetamine or even caffeine that temporarily suppresses appetite, you lose weight, then stop taking it. When the appetite suppression stops they think it's "tolerance" to the drug.

I blame pharma for this. I don't think they wanted to emphasize these drugs are intended to be used for life. Just as insulin corrects a hormone deficiency for diabetics, TRT for hypogonadosm, GLPs correct a glucagon deficiency.

The good news is that rather than suffering from "using a drug long term", high levels of GLPs in your system have some incredibly good effects on an ever increasing list of organs. It's uses are already extending to people who don't need to lose weight (see liver disease above), and as a side effect it'll help prevent them from ever developing obesity in the first place.

One other note. I think it's a mistake to jump on and off repeatedly as many are doing. There's some thin observational evidence, and my own experience aligns with this, that coming off and going back on after an extended break seems to require higher doses for the same appetite suppression effect. "The thermostat gets harder to turn" in effect. It seems more prudent to stay on, at least a small dose, continuously.