Protocal prescribed to me --Opinions Please (Swale too!)

[Vforcer]

Protocol prescribed to me --Opinions Please (Swale too!)

Hi guys, I just got my Test. Cyp and HGC today. The doctor is recommending that I start off with 50mg (I assume that is 50 units on the syringe?) of Cyp twice a week and taking 500 iu of HGC 3 times per week and he doesn't believe in front loading. Swales protocal seems so much easier.

The Cyp came in a container that says 150 mg/ml.

I told him about Swales protocal and he said that taking the 100mg of Cyp in one dose spikes the Estrogen levels too high. Thoughts on this?

If I follow this doctors protocal, it sure seems like I will be sticking myself a heck of a lot during the week.

Advise? I want to start this thing off on the right foot!

My levels are:
Total T 321 (260-1000)
Free T 83 (34-194)
Bio Avail T 192 (84-402)
Estradiol 32 (no range given)

 

[Sonny]

Syringes marked in "units" are usually insulin syringes with really tiny needles. The ideal setup is a 3cc BD syringe (or equivalent) with a 23g or 25g needle for injecting Test Cyp.

Since your Test Cyp is 150mg/mL, 1/2 mL or 1/2cc (1ml = 1cc) will give you 75mg. 1/3 cc will give you 50mg of Test Cyp, but it is really hard to accurately measure 1/3 cc...especially if you're new to it.

Swale's protocol calls for 3 injections per week (1 Test Cyp, 2 HCG). Your doc is calling for 4 injections per week. The HCG injection is done with an insulin syringe and tiny needle...you really can't even feel it.

100mg/week absolutely did not spike my Estrogen levels. Some people are more sensitive than others, but generally 100mg/week will not cause Estrogen problems. The only problem you will have with 100mg/week is that you will be using twice as much as your doctor has prescribed. So, you will run out in half the time and he will most likely get mad if you double your dosage after getting specific instructions.

Sonny

 

[Vforcer]

Sonny,
Technically I have been prescribed 150 mg per week in two 75 mg injections. Plus three 500iu injections of HCG. That is 5 injections a week, which is tooooo many.

I just spoke with the pharmacist and he said the insulin syringes(25 gauge 1.5") that have been supplied hold 150 mg when full, so I was to fill it up halfway to the 50 unit mark (per injection) if I am to do the two injections per week. If the consensus here is that is not needed and estrogen levels do not spike considerably, I will just do one 150 mg injection and save from poking myself more times than I need to.

I was supplied with one BD 3cc syringe but it was for drawing out the water to mix with the HCG solution.

How important is front loading with 200 mg as Swale reccommends?

 

[buck]

As far as estrogen goes 100mg per week doesn't even get my E levels up into the normal range. Go figure.

 

[Sonny]

Vforcer:

That's a pretty aggressive protocol...definitely keep on top of lab work in the beginning. 100mg/week of Test Cyp and 500iu/week of HCG put my T levels at super levels...I had to drop back on the Test Cyp. This has been the case with a few others here as well. You'll be on 150mg/week of Test Cyp and 1500iu/week of HCG.

Test Cyp is really hard to draw through a 25g needle. Generally, people use a big needle like a 20g or 21g to draw it into the syringe. Then the needle is removed and switched to something smaller like a 23g or 25g. It's generally desireable to switch needles between drawing/injecting because insertion of the needle through the rubber will dull the tip somewhat. This will make the injection hurt more.

Your HCG came as a powder and bacteriostatic water combo, correct? How many IUs is the powder?

Sonny

 

[BigRagu]

Your pharm said an slin needle is 25 gauge 1.5inches? that is a an IM needle............ I use a 3cc (trying to get a smaller one) ........... i pull with a 1 inch 22 gauge.... and shoot with a 1 inch 25 gauge in the quad...... if your having a problem shooting with the 25gauge because of the oil..... cap the needle and hold it in your hand for a few min to warm up the solution... it make injections alot faster for me..... that much hcg a week could run the risk of becoming sensitive to your own lh.....but that is what i read.......... make sure with that much hcg u keep an eye on estrogen..............

 

[Vforcer]

Sonny-
I have 10,000 iu of HGC. More than I can possibly use before it expires in 8 weeks. When your T was at "super" levels, how did it make you feel?

BigRagu-
Like I said, I am not sold on the 500 iu of HCG 3 times per week as it is just to much sticking, and after reading what Swale has to say about HCG, it sounds like it is a powerful drug. I will probably follow the Swale protocol at 250 iu 2 X per week on the HCG and see how it goes. I can always increase if needed.

Any thoughts on frontloading with the 200mg like Swale suggests? Anyone done it? How did it make you feel?

The 25 gauge 1.5 syringes do work to draw the Cyp in, but it takes a few minutes. Like you guys say, I don't want to dull the needle, so what do you think about me reusing the BD needle (after using it to draw and inject the water for the HCG mixing) to draw the Cyp and then I can pop the needle off the 25 gauge syringes and just squirt it in to load them all up at the same time (pre load them all)?

BTW, all my syringes (except the BD) are 25 gauge 1.5". Can I go down to a 1" for Cyp and HCG? Also as far as injection sites, from my research, the glute is the best overall for the Cyp injections.

My Cyp came today looking a little bit like lard, apparently the cold weather here caused it to gel (15 degrees last night). It is suspended in Olive Oil, which I guess is what caused that to happen. I was told by the pharmacist that I could just set it in some warm water and it would be fine, and that is what I did and it looks fine. Has this happend to anyone else?

 

[BigRagu]

yea as long as u don't have high bf% u can use a 1inch needle in the quad and a 1.5 in the glute....the quad works just as well as the glute from what i have read.... for hcg there subq so those are smaller then 1inch and are like 28(?) gauge...... remember when u get that test warmed up to shake it alittle to dissolve any crystals left in it.............

 

[Sonny]

Here's what I do...works good for me.

Test Cyp: 3cc BD syringe. New 20g x 1.5" needle to draw. New 23g x 1" needle to shoot it into my glute. I'm 5'9 160lbs...relatively skinny ass. No problems with the 1" in the glute.

HCG New: Add 10mL of Bacteriostatic water into the vial containing the 10,000iu of HCG. This yields a solution of 1000iu/mL. It's ideal if the pharmacy gives you a 10ml syringe + 20g 1.5" needle (what I use) since you can do the water in one shot and not poke a bunch of holes in your HCG vial.

HCG inject: Since I want 250 iu, I use an insulin syringe with a fixed 29 g x 1/2" needle. Capacity of the syringe is 1/2cc. If full, it would hold 500 iu of HCG. So, I only fill it halfway to my 250 iu.

I find that pharmacies generally screw things up when it comes to giving me the syringes and needles that I want. So, I order my stuff online. The insulin syringes/needles come prepackaged with safety caps and cost 16 cents each. 20g x 1.5" needles and 23g x 1" needles are dirt cheap. BD syringes aren't that bad either. Last time, I bought 25 of everything and I think I paid something like $16.

When my Testosterone levels were at "super" levels (Total T = 1249, range is 241-827; Free T was >52.0, range is 9.5-43.0), I felt good, but I felt kind of restless and on-edge.

Sonny

 

[Vforcer]

Great Info Guys! Just a few more questions I need help with.....

Where do you purchase your syringes online at?

Also what is the purpose of aspirating and is it neccasary in the glute?

Do you think I should frontload with 200 mg?

The 3ml BD syringe is 22 gauge 1.5 inches and has a removable needle that can be interchanged with the 25 gauge needles. If I use this BD syringe for injections, how many ml=mg for Cyp?

 

[SWALE]

Yes, please make sure you get your dosing down correctly.

If this doctor has noticed too much "estrogen spiking", perhaps it is from prescribing HCG at twice the dose he should.

My guys do not have any problems at 100mg, once per week. And starting out a TRT patient on 150mg per week test cyp IM is way too high, IMPO. Your regimen will take you, most likely, to at least twice the top of normal range--and that is not good for you.

Why don't you take my paper to him, so he can see why I do things the way I do?

 

[earthdog]

Also what is the purpose of aspirating and is it neccasary in the glute?

Yes, you must aspirate. It is to make sure that you're not injecting directly into a vein which is dangerous. Injection instructions are here.

 

[Vforcer]

Thanks Swale. Perhaps I should cut back to the 100mg per week then.

Do you recommend front loading of 200mg of Cyp?

 

[Vforcer]

I went ahead and did the 200mg front load injection this morning.............pretty freaky thing first time. I wanted my wife to do my glute but she just couldn't bring herself to do it, and I did not feel flexible enough nor steady handed enough to do myself back there and aspirate. So I did it myself in the thigh. I probably still did not aspirate far back enough, but practice makes perfect. My biggest fear was hitting a bone or something with the 1.5" needle....yikes. I think I am gonna order some of those smaller needles like Sonny suggested.

 

[Sonny]

1.5" is a loooong needle.

Here is what I use to draw:
http://gpzservices.easystorecreator.com/Browse_Item_Details.asp/Item_ID/30/categ_id/14/parent_ids/0,1,14/Name/20_G_X_15#8243;_3CC_Syringe_with_Needle_(B-D)

Then I remove the needle and replace it with this:
http://gpzservices.easystorecreator.com/Browse_Item_Details.asp/Item_ID/66/categ_id/8/parent_ids/0,1,8/Name/Needle_only_no_syringe_23_G_X_1#8243;

Here's the syringe I use to mix HCG (I put a 20g 1.5" needle on the end):
http://gpzservices.easystorecreator.com/Browse_Item_Details.asp/Item_ID/20/categ_id/13/parent_ids/0,1,13/Name/10_CC_Syringe_no_needle

Since you're mixing your HCG up to be 1000IU/mL, you will need need a syringe that will read accurately to .25cc (mL) to get 250IU or .5cc (mL) to get 500 IU. This is a 1cc syringe that should work. I haven't use this syringe personally though:
http://gpzservices.easystorecreator.com/Browse_Item_Details.asp/Item_ID/39/categ_id/14/parent_ids/0,1,14/Name/28_G_X_12#8243;_1CC__Syringe_with_Needle_(Insulin)

Needles and syringes are a prescription item in California, so I can't walk into a pharmacy and ask for what I want. So, I prefer to incur a small amount of out-of-pocket expense to get what I want without having to hassle with additional prescriptions or my insurance company.

Sonny

 

[greatgro]

Yes, you must aspirate. It is to make sure that you're not injecting directly into a vein which is dangerous.

Why? What would happen??

 

[Vforcer]

Sonny, you have been a tremendous help, especially for such a newbie like myself in beginning HRT. All the info is greatly appreciated. Thankyou!

I had considered GH about a month ago, but have not yet convinced myself that it is very effective. My IGF-1 levels are pretty darn good I am told at 321 (scale is 114-492). Thoughts on GH?

 

[Millard]

Needles and syringes are a prescription item in California, so I can't walk into a pharmacy and ask for what I want. So, I prefer to incur a small amount of out-of-pocket expense to get what I want without having to hassle with additional prescriptions or my insurance company.

But it's still illegal - right? No prescription, no legal.

This may be a silly question for most board members, since legality isn't of great concern to most. But if you are careful enough to have legitimate TRT with legal and valid scripts for your testosterone, then you might as well be legal while obtaining pins.

Given the witch hunt for anyone associated with androgens, it may be worth the hassle.

 

[Sonny]

But it's still illegal - right? No prescription, no legal.

This may be a silly question for most board members, since legality isn't of great concern to most. But if you are careful enough to have legitimate TRT with legal and valid scripts for your testosterone, then you might as well be legal while obtaining pins.

Given the witch hunt for anyone associated with androgens, it may be worth the hassle.

If you want to get into the semantics of it...legality...it depends.

I can goto San Francisco and get sterile needle for free...no questions asked. I can bring dirty needles into a pharmacy and exchange them for fresh ones...no questions asked.

However, I cannot walk into a pharmacy and pick and choose new ones that I want. I was short a needle once and despite me telling the pharmacist that I'd just have re-use my dirty needle, she wouldn't give me a new one despite me showing her my prescriptions for both the needles and the Depo-Testosterone. I went to another pharmacy and got one.

If you're in a state where a prescription is required and you have a prescription (I do, but they only give me 4 at a time and charge me $5...ripoff), I wouldn't (and don't) hesitate to order them. Police can kick down my door all they want...I have a prescription for the needles and I have a prescription for what is going into the needles (that's where their concern really is).

If you're self-medicating in a state where they're illegal, you've got bigger problems because self-medication means you're buying the medication illegally.

My 2 cents...

Sonny

 

[Millard]

If you want to get into the semantics of it...legality...it depends.

I'm not arguing semantics, but technicality of the law.

Is it legal for a CA resident to mail order syringes/needles from out of state without a prescription? Or not?