Perma Cycle Until Bloodwork Says No?

[RockyP]

This is all good and fair but if you’re competing and not genetic elite trt isn’t going to cut it so people do need to gauge their limits, and draw the lines in the sand as to how far they are willing to go. Not using a mg more than necessary is not that hard. If you are growing dont add gear hahaha. If you’re not growing, and seriously every single aspect is 100%, then add a little more gear.

I don’t know if it’s about being tough, we all have our individual drives, rationales and time frames.Our perspectives on health and conservatism also change based on size. When I was 180 I would’ve thought my cruise now is a cycle, but I wasn’t going to push for 265+ within the next 6 months, nor was I getting any income from my physique or anywhere close to stepping on stage.

Opinions on this are so polarizing especially when we consider genetics and propensity for damage or rate of gain, and people do get butt hurt if they need more and some do want to shame you if they need less or want to portray they are “healthy”. when I talk online some people say oh Im virtue signaling if I think what I’m on is a lot of gear , and other people will say oh man youre a steroid abuser, like a heroin junkie and you have shit genetics.

You can run trt if you want, and my dosages are basically my choice and not actually any of your business.

Yup. Didn’t ask about your dosages brother. I agree with your sentiment. Everyone can do whatever they want, and you are right the opinions are polarizing. Genetics play a major role in what people can get away with. And the reason professionals are professionals is largely their genetics, all else equal. And they will admit that. Part of the genetic elite is responding to drugs at escalating dosages without serious health issues, which I know you are obviously aware of. The tough guy comment was tongue in cheek as some guys literally think that it’s better (than others) to run higher doses. And my point is that most of them are using too much. They don’t need what they’re taking. But most people are too impatient to wait around for gains and too stubborn to look hard at their diet and recovery and so just up the dosage.

I don’t care what dosage anyone takes. My experience is colored by my interaction with professionals, one of whom coached me in the past. He had very strong opinions about non competitors using gear at all. But when he was advising me he was a pain in the ass (or so I thought at the time) about using 250 mg test until it stopped working. That lasted me quite a while on bulks and cuts, well above 200 lbs. I’m below average genetics. I was just patient.

 

[Ghoul]

Bloodwork might be fine but brain function, cognition, adrenals and a number of other functions will get a hit. Being perma at 1000ng/dl with good bloodwork is not the same with being perma at 3500ng with still good bloodwork. Also, besides muscles organs have androgen receptors too iirc.

On the other hand, I've seen couple guys doing stupid shit and being "ok" after 15-20 years of use and never going below 500mg. Pretty sure though mentally they're not in a great place.

I'm not judging your choices, I've been a chemical "Magellan" numerous times in my life, and came away with unique rewards unattainable any other way, as well as coming frighteningly close to wrecking on the rocks more than once.

Just appreciate you're heading into largely uncharted territory where benefits and risks aren't entirely clear.

Control what you can to reduce known risks.

Keep reminding yourself that the further off the beaten path you go, the greater the chance of unforeseen damage. Continually reassess whether whatever you're gaining is worth the increasingly growing odds of something bad happening. Because when it comes to drug abuse, medicine has no safety net or sympathy for you if things go wrong. You may end as a cautionary tale in someone's clinical case report.

For example, here's one of several long term risks we don't know how to accurately monitor or reduce. How does one keep an eye on this? What this report sees are the end results after some unclear period of long term, undefined "high dose" AAS use. What marker can you use to monitor neurologic health? Annual assessments of brain mass? What do you do if it shrinks? Stop? Will you still have the judgement necessary to even make that call in the way you'd want to before the damage occurred?

Good luck brother.



Journal of Forensic Sciences 2025:
Anabolic–Androgenic Steroids and Brain Damage: A Review

 

[Slowww]

Yup. Didn’t ask about your dosages brother. I agree with your sentiment. Everyone can do whatever they want, and you are right the opinions are polarizing. Genetics play a major role in what people can get away with. And the reason professionals are professionals is largely their genetics, all else equal. And they will admit that. Part of the genetic elite is responding to drugs at escalating dosages without serious health issues, which I know you are obviously aware of. The tough guy comment was tongue in cheek as some guys literally think that it’s better (than others) to run higher doses. And my point is that most of them are using too much. They don’t need what they’re taking. But most people are too impatient to wait around for gains and too stubborn to look hard at their diet and recovery and so just up the dosage.

I don’t care what dosage anyone takes. My experience is colored by my interaction with professionals, one of whom coached me in the past. He had very strong opinions about non competitors using gear at all. But when he was advising me he was a pain in the ass (or so I thought at the time) about using 250 mg test until it stopped working. That lasted me quite a while on bulks and cuts, well above 200 lbs. I’m below average genetics. I was just patient.

I don’t mean you in particular just the general “you” as in people haha. Nothing against you personally or hard feelings in the post.
Yeah a lot of guys do like to act like they “earn” higher dosages— like Im bigger so Im entitled to run more and therefore that is better. I know guys like that personally and they’re the ones who end up with issues fast, and without the community stepping in to help they would continue and pretend nothing is wrong. But besides those cases honestly it seems like people with a measured approach (not even very moderate, just intentional) haven’t run into the health problems— at least within the guys IRL i know.
Im sure most rational people who are aware of the drawbacks would like to get away with using less. Im not trying to be rude but to have that kind of “tough guy” attitude is retarded. Spells trouble fast.
Idk if that many experienced guys are running more than they need, but definitely some beginners have crazy ass cycles for where they are. Then again a guy who just won his classic pro card had a heart attack two weeks ago and he wasn’t even in his mid thirties… so it’s very hard to say.

As to the 250 test, there’s really nothing wrong with that. When I started with the coach I am with now, I was 190lbs starting at 250 as well and it worked— and I also felt the same as you, haha why not more test.just reminding you can’t rush the process helped, if you’re honest and steadfast in effort (with a good plan as a prerequisite) that is what is going to make the difference and it’s true.

 

[cousinmuscles]

Well, I have been pondering about making a thread that relates to this question.

Cycle length and when to stop: There are two reasons to stop a cycle. Health or plateau.

If you plateau, you can increase your dose or add another compound on top to make a new phase of the cycle and start making gains again. I believe everyone plateaus after a set number of weeks on a dose if you carefully measure your progress, both in the gym and body composition. Then you also come to a point where adding more milligrams doesn't yield more gains.

Health reasons to stop are either measured through health parameters e.g. blood work or typical side effects that make it too hard to continue a cycle like anxiety, loss of appetite e.t.c.

There is another approach where you don't stop a cycle but continue with a health phase of a cycle, so to not lose progress made but make all health parameters return to baseline, resensitize your body and get ready for the next phase of the cycle.

Health phase would be above TRT but not really a cycle. Dose depends on what you yourself need to not lose muscle but as little as possible for that purpose. If you can take it down to 100mg test don't lose any strength, that's great, if you need 250 then that's what you need. You want as little as possible to resensitize but high enough that you are only losing some cosmetic effects/water weight, not muscle mass.

This way the "cycle" is perpetual and health parameters are maintained throughout this cycle

 

[OmL]

Imagine working incredibly hard for the physique you want and then just dying.

 

[cousinmuscles]

Imagine working incredibly hard for the physique you want and then just dying.

There are two things guaranteed in life: Death, and Taxes. Everyone dies, and everyone pays taxes!

 

[dinfar1337]

everyone pays taxes

whole 2023-24 i cheated in taxes and paid 0$

you guys are just the losers

 

[accidentaljedi173]

I guess the real question to be asked is
What amount of aas is high doses?

 

[adrenalytic]

I guess the real question to be asked is
What amount of aas is high doses?

that's the rub, isn't it? If markers look good on 5 grams of gear, is that really a high dose? If markers are abysmal on 1 gram, is that high dose? Some guys on TRT doses have a hard time dialing in. Is their dose too high?

The answer is (like pretty much everything in this sport) it depends on the individual.

 

[dinfar1337]

If markers look good on 5 grams of gear, is that really a high dose?

i agree brother.

lets all show off on this rocky guy with our 5g cycles he would lose his mind

 

[cousinmuscles]

whole 2023-24 i cheated in taxes and paid 0$

you guys are just the losers

If you spent anything over a cent of your earned money, you paid taxes. VAT, this tax, that tax... Trust me. Everyone pays taxes just like everyone dies.

 

[dinfar1337]

If you spent anything over a cent of your earned money, you paid taxes. VAT, this tax, that tax... Trust me. Everyone pays taxes just like everyone dies.

i buy my chicken with company cvr, so i pay no taxes on my chicken.

try again. i cheat in every way i can and so should you instead of thinking you're locked in the system

 

[adrenalytic]

buy my chicken with company cvr, so i pay no taxes on my chicken.

Groceries are not taxed in the US no matter where you buy. Only prepared foods are taxable because it's considered a service.

 

[Liter O' Test]

i think over time some of the factors involved in muscle growth adjust to the gear so its really not such a bad idea to have a real cruise.

actual hormone levels and AR etc is a small piece of the puzzle,

chase himself ran like over a gram of tren for two years and was still small, so theres definately more going on than just blaming diet or training

 

[sionnach]

All due respect, while I agree with some of your points, this seems more emotion driven than by logic.

So does staying on blast 24/7/365

 

[IndividualMan]

i buy my chicken with company cvr, so i pay no taxes on my chicken.

try again. i cheat in every way i can and so should you instead of thinking you're locked in the system

noob, just farm your own chicken using involuntary unpaid interns. highest $/pound ratio.

Ngl tho, buying food in company name is pretty nice.

 

[dinfar1337]

Groceries are not taxed in the US no matter where you buy. Only prepared foods are taxable because it's considered a service.

i live in eu standard tax for all products is 25% buying as private person

 

[OmL]

i live in eu standard tax for all products is 25% buying as private person

There’s almost 0 tax added to the price of groceries in Ireland. Things with added sugar (like fizzy drink) or high fat foods (Like snacks and chocolate bars) are taxed more.

 

[dinfar1337]

There’s almost 0 tax added to the price of groceries in Ireland. Things with added sugar (like fizzy drink) or high fat foods (Like snacks and chocolate bars) are taxed more.

ireland is nice.

i live in more shitty denmark, fuck this shit taxing bitch ass country

 

[IndividualMan]

aw man, dinfar gone again : (