Maintaining metabolic rate when cutting

[TheCant]

I've been cutting for the past month. Weight according to the scale fluctuated, didn't drop much weight but look visibly better. I think that as I also restarted AAS when I started the cut I think some weight was due to the gear but I lost fat at the same time.

It does seem like I'm consistently getting lighter according to the scale for the past few days though.

Now I'm afraid of my metabolic rate getting used to the low calories and stalling too quickly. I've been on pretty low calories since I started the cut. For example, yesterday I ate only around 1300 calories, however some days if I feel super hungry or a massive lack of energy I will up calories, the highest I've eaten for the past month was around 2500 though, so should still be at/below maintenance.

I'm basically eating at a deficit everyday but some days if I feel like I can have a large deficit without compromising training or my life too much I will.

I've been training 4/5days a week and cardio most of those days, probably between 1hr to 2hrs a week.

I got some clenbuterol on hand which I can add if I stall. I estimate I need to lose about 10kgs of fat to be lean enough so I don't look fat when I bulk so I'm expecting to carry on with the cut for at least 10 more weeks

The days I eat more I'm generally not eating junk, just more rice or put oats in my shake.
I'm seeing it as essentially a refeed but instead of picking one day a week I do it based on how I feel.

If you have experience doing something similar. I.e. eating based on how you feel
Would this up/down calories shift depending on how I feel be enough to maintain my metabolic rate and ensure I don't stall quickly?

 

[scientifik]

Cycling is the best way to avoid metabolic stall

 

[JesterBOB]

From experience, frequent refeeds lead to a deterioration in form, I would do them no more than once every 2-3 weeks.

 

[TheCant]

From experience, frequent refeeds lead to a deterioration in form, I would do them no more than once every 2-3 weeks.

Sorry, could you clarify what you mean by deterioration in form?

And do you think that would still be the case if even with the refeed I'm still in a deficit?

 

[lukiss96]

From my experience this stall is more in your head than reality.

Crash dieting like this doesn't really work long term either.

Use more moderate calorie deficit that is sustainable.

Also scales are the last thing to rely on, use mirror and pictures, take measurements.

 

[JesterBOB]

Sorry, could you clarify what you mean by deterioration in form?

And do you think that would still be the case if even with the refeed I'm still in a deficit?

The amount of fat in the body, I meant it.
Frequent refeeds usually lead to a surplus in dynamics.
I didn't understand what you meant by the second question.

 

[JesterBOB]

From my experience this stall is more in your head than reality.

Crash dieting like this doesn't really work long term either.

Use more moderate calorie deficit that is sustainable.

Also scales are the last thing to rely on, use mirror and pictures, take measurements.

The last two sentences are the most good and effective tips for all the guys who want to lose weight without interruption and get rid of fat mass.

 

[Type-IIx]

You're eating too much. You've miscalculated your TDEE and/or you've underestimated your energy intake on those days you feel hungry, and/or you've miscalculated (underestimated) their frequency. Eating based on how you feel is not a lauded dietary strategy conducive to fat loss.

 

[eery]

Metabolic adaption is a normal part of dieting, other then that you can just a replacement dose of T3 to keep your thyroid from potentially downregulating, but its no fix.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

This is why we slowly build calories during growth periods and slowly strip them away during dieting phases. You’re only 4 weeks in and having 1300 cal days; I don’t even let bikini clients eat that little.

 

[Type-IIx]

Metabolic adaptation is real. How often does it result in meaningful reductions in fat loss? Never, because this adaptation cannot overcome a significant deficit. Ever.

My confidence that OP's even experiencing a T3/fT3 decrement at this point - zero.

 

[Canknucklehead]

Post your diet

Post your training/cardio/activity

 

[TheCant]

I think my post was all over the place and that is confusing people.
I haven't stalled, I lost around 4kgs in the first 4 weeks and just under 1kg this week so far whilst recovering some muscle and strength I lost over the years. So I'm not unhappy with results and at an average 1kg lost a week that doesn't seem like a crazy extreme loss.

I understand the recommended way for sustainable fat loss is to apply a small deficit daily and reduce it periodically but to me that's not sustainable or convenient. Some days I'm just not as hungry and have enough energy to go on with my day and workout, why should I have as much calories that day as when I'm hungry just for the sake of having the same deficit everyday? Is it not a deficit over a period of time that counts?
Say if I'm on 3500 calories deficit weekly, why is a daily 500 deficit better than a non linear calorie deficit when they both reach 3500 deficit that week?

Not trying to be a dick, just wondering if there is anything I'm missing here.

I guess my question is whether a small consistent daily deficit is superior to that same deficit over a period of time?

 

[TheCant]

Post your diet

Post your training/cardio/activity

I vary the protein sources but my protein sources are generally:

lean turkey, lean beef, chicken breast, liquid egg whites, sometimes whole eggs, lean beef meatball, chicken thighs, reduced fat bacon, fat free greek yoghurt, cottage cheese, whey protein.

Protein intake daily varies from a low of 180g to 250g.

I have 1 or 2 portions of fruit and 1 or 2 portions of mixed vegetables a day.

Carbs sources are rice most days but sometimes oats, beans (red kidney beans, black beans, pinto beans, it varies), potatoes (white or sweet). Most days I will only have 1 carb meal a day, which is usually night time post workout, but if I don't feel much energy to workout I will add some carbs to the pre workout (usually oats).

Training/Cardio

4/5days weights, full body. I pick between 1/2 compounds (from bench, overhead press, squat, deadlift, barbell row) go as heavy as I can on at least 2 working sets for at least 6 reps. Then I add other exercises to complement. Volume is between 10 to 15 working sets.

Cardio, after weights at least 10 minutes on the treadmill, high pace walking (6.5kmh) on 6.5% incline, if I have the energy I will go up to 30mins.
I pick one day a week (a day I'm not lifting) and do 30mins-1hr on the treadmill.

So I have between 1/2 rest days I don't do weights or cardio.

 

[Type-IIx]

I think my post was all over the place and that is confusing people.
I haven't stalled, I lost around 4kgs in the first 4 weeks and just under 1kg this week so far whilst recovering some muscle and strength I lost over the years. So I'm not unhappy with results and at an average 1kg lost a week that doesn't seem like a crazy extreme loss.

I understand the recommended way for sustainable fat loss is to apply a small deficit daily and reduce it periodically but to me that's not sustainable or convenient. Some days I'm just not as hungry and have enough energy to go on with my day and workout, why should I have as much calories that day as when I'm hungry just for the sake of having the same deficit everyday? Is it not a deficit over a period of time that counts?
Say if I'm on 3500 calories deficit weekly, why is a daily 500 deficit better than a non linear calorie deficit when they both reach 3500 deficit that week?

Not trying to be a dick, just wondering if there is anything I'm missing here.

I guess my question is whether a small consistent daily deficit is superior to that same deficit over a period of time?

You're not being a dick bro. Than you for clarifying that weight loss is still forthcoming. It is indeed the weekly deficit that matters.

I prefer a larger deficit over a relatively shorter period of time to get the diet over with (dieting sucks). Within the boundaries of that which maintains muscle (i.e., <= 1 kg/week fat loss).

I don't think your approach is sound, however, not because you're eating at a deficit over a long period, but because there's zero objectivity being applied (besides scale weight, subject to short-term perturbations by water/fluid shifts) and you're dieting based on your appetite/hunger.

You need to either "embrace the suck" that you'll be hungry or use lipolytic and/or appetite suppression agents to assist you, and use objective measures like by the use body fat calipers (and girth measures as with a tape measure), or at least an experienced coach to check in with regularly for analysis of changes to body composition by visual assessment. If that is not feasible, you can try "crowdsourcing" your b.f. % estimates and body composition changes here on Meso (guys actually do a pretty good job at this). You especially need to plan out your diet structure, energy intake and macronutrients, so as to to put you in a weekly deficit and to support training (for LBM retention, additional EE/EAT).

 

[TheCant]

You're not being a dick bro. Than you for clarifying that weight loss is still forthcoming. It is indeed the weekly deficit that matters.

I prefer a larger deficit over a relatively shorter period of time to get the diet over with (dieting sucks). Within the boundaries of that which maintains muscle (i.e., <= 1 kg/week fat loss).

I don't think your approach is sound, however, not because you're eating at a deficit over a long period, but because there's zero objectivity being applied (besides scale weight, subject to short-term perturbations by water/fluid shifts) and you're dieting based on your appetite/hunger.

You need to either "embrace the suck" that you'll be hungry or use lipolytic and/or appetite suppression agents to assist you, and use objective measures like by the use body fat calipers (and girth measures as with a tape measure), or at least an experienced coach to check in with regularly for analysis of changes to body composition by visual assessment. If that is not feasible, you can try "crowdsourcing" your b.f. % estimates and body composition changes here on Meso (guys actually do a pretty good job at this). You especially need to plan out your diet structure, energy intake and macronutrients, so as to to put you in a weekly deficit and to support training (for LBM retention, additional EE/EAT).

Thank you. I will get calipers and the tape measure out and start monitoring BF more objectively. I should've done from the start to be fairm

Regarding the diet though, it's relatively tough for me to keep the same everyday, even though I know it's ideal.
I don't want to compete so I think being optimal is only worth it if it is sustainable. If/when what I'm doing stops working I will have to just suck it up and do it the usual way.

I was more interested in knowing if there is anyone who had experience or knew any studies talking about how this "calorie cycling" affected metabolic rate.
It made some sense in my head that if anything eating the same amount of calories everyday would make it easier for your metabolism to get used to it and stall, but if you don't keep calories consistent daily that would reduce the chances of that happening and keep your body guessing.

 

[Type-IIx]

Thank you. I will get calipers and the tape measure out and start monitoring BF more objectively. I should've done from the start to be fairm

Regarding the diet though, it's relatively tough for me to keep the same everyday, even though I know it's ideal.
I don't want to compete so I think being optimal is only worth it if it is sustainable. If/when what I'm doing stops working I will have to just suck it up and do it the usual way.

I was more interested in knowing if there is anyone who had experience or knew any studies talking about how this "calorie cycling" affected metabolic rate.
It made some sense in my head that if anything eating the same amount of calories everyday would make it easier for your metabolism to get used to it and stall, but if you don't keep calories consistent daily that would reduce the chances of that happening and keep your body guessing.

RMR sees a slight decrement due to metabolic adaptations that include decreased T3/fT3 and thyroid output. Replacement exogenous T3 (i.e., 25 µg daily Cytomel) makes up some of this decrement, but not all. Further, this is regarded as adaptive (a beneficial adaptation), because it spares muscle catabolism. There is also a dip in SNS output, that clen can (at least very short term) make up for somewhat as a sympathomimetic. EC works, etc.

But these adaptations are not significant to overcome an energy deficit, fat loss will still proceed.

What you've described is some initial weight loss, likely water/fluid.

You haven't dieted hard or long enough for these adaptations that are decidedly irrelevant (they never overcome the deficit, they're relatively microscopic, i.e., a few kcal/d in reduced fat loss).

You're not on a cyclical dietary regimen (heh). You're trying to control intake based on appetite and hunger without regard to energy intake.

I'm not going to convince you of the inevitable pointlessness of this sort of dietary restriction, so, with that I'm out. If you drink sugar-sweetened beverages, you can drop those, and hunger/satiety won't be impacted. With food, you're going to be hungry, it follows from a deficit (without drugs).

 

[JesterBOB]

You're eating too much. You've miscalculated your TDEE and/or you've underestimated your energy intake on those days you feel hungry, and/or you've miscalculated (underestimated) their frequency. Eating based on how you feel is not a lauded dietary strategy conducive to fat loss.

I think even this tends to lead to more food intake. For the appetite of envy is not only from what we want to eat, but from the level of stress, mood.

 

[JesterBOB]

Metabolic adaption is a normal part of dieting, other then that you can just a replacement dose of T3 to keep your thyroid from potentially downregulating, but its no fix.

It seems to me that touching the thyroid gland if the tasks are unsportsmanlike is not worth it at all.

 

[JesterBOB]

This is why we slowly build calories during growth periods and slowly strip them away during dieting phases. You’re only 4 weeks in and having 1300 cal days; I don’t even let bikini clients eat that little.

I'm sure this is a psychological problem, if you want to get rid of fat, you need to cut calories a lot. But this is how we generally introduce stress into the body and there is no question of any fat loss, but we get stress for the body.