Main Reason Bush/Cheney Won

[DaRooster]

Christianity is based on fear... If your not a Christian you'll burn in hell. Not much love there. Perhaps your the one who misunderstands Christianity. I believe morality is the bases of our world. Explains why the world is the way it is.

Yet the thinking mind begs to ask: if God has a way he wants me to be, then why didn't he simply create me that way to begin with? Why all this struggle for me to overcome who I am in order for me to become what God wants me to be? Christians would have you believe that God created you less than who God is, so you can have a chance to become as God is, working against all odds-and, I might add against every natural tendency God has supposedly given us.
Among these so called natural tendencies is the tendency to sin. We are taught that we are born in sin, That you will die in sin, and that sin is your nature.
The church teaches us we can do nothing about this. Our actions are irrelevant and meaningless. It is arrogant to think that by some action of our own we could get to heaven. There is only one way to get to heaven (salvation) that that is through no undertaking of our own, but through acceptance of his son as our intermediary
Once this is done your are "saved". Until it is done, nothing that we do -not in life, not the choices you make, not anything you undertake of your own will in an effort to improve yourself or render you worthy- has any effect, bears any inflluence. We are incapable of rendering ourselfs worthy, because we are inherently unworthy. We were created that way.
Why? God only knows. Perhaps he made a mistake. Perhaps he didn't get it right. Maybe he wishes he could have it all to do over again. But there its is. What to do.
Then several thousand years ago God relented, saying that from now on you didn't have be good, you simply had to feel bad when you were not being good, and accept as your savior the one being who could always be perfect, thus satisfying God's hunger for perfection. Saying that Gods' son- who we call the perfect one - has saved us from our own imperfections- the imperfections GOD gave you.
In other words, Gods son has saved us from what His father did.
This is how we- many of us- say God has set it up.
Sounds silly to me...

 

[jbiggs]

Christianity is based on fear... If your not a Christian you'll burn in hell. Not much love there. Perhaps your the one who misunderstands Christianity. I believe morality is the bases of our world. Explains why the world is the way it is.

Yet the thinking mind begs to ask: if God has a way he wants me to be, then why didn't he simply create me that way to begin with? Why all this struggle for me to overcome who I am in order for me to become what God wants me to be? Christians would have you believe that God created you less than who God is, so you can have a chance to become as God is, working against all odds-and, I might add against every natural tendency God has supposedly given us.
Among these so called natural tendencies is the tendency to sin. We are taught that we are born in sin, That you will die in sin, and that sin is your nature.
The church teaches us we can do nothing about this. Our actions are irrelevant and meaningless. It is arrogant to think that by some action of our own we could get to heaven. There is only one way to get to heaven (salvation) that that is through no undertaking of our own, but through acceptance of his son as our intermediary
Once this is done your are "saved". Until it is done, nothing that we do -not in life, not the choices you make, not anything you undertake of your own will in an effort to improve yourself or render you worthy- has any effect, bears any inflluence. We are incapable of rendering ourselfs worthy, because we are inherently unworthy. We were created that way.
Why? God only knows. Perhaps he made a mistake. Perhaps he didn't get it right. Maybe he wishes he could have it all to do over again. But there its is. What to do.
Then several thousand years ago God relented, saying that from now on you didn't have be good, you simply had to feel bad when you were not being good, and accept as your savior the one being who could always be perfect, thus satisfying God's hunger for perfection. Saying that Gods' son- who we call the perfect one - has saved us from our own imperfections- the imperfections GOD gave you.
In other words, Gods son has saved us from what His father did.
This is how we- many of us- say God has set it up.
Sounds silly to me...

Your whole post shows you just don't get it! If I had more time....

 

[Vicious cycle]

Christianity is based on fear... If your not a Christian you'll burn in hell. Not much love there. Perhaps your the one who misunderstands Christianity. I believe morality is the bases of our world. Explains why the world is the way it is.

Yet the thinking mind begs to ask: if God has a way he wants me to be, then why didn't he simply create me that way to begin with? Why all this struggle for me to overcome who I am in order for me to become what God wants me to be? Christians would have you believe that God created you less than who God is, so you can have a chance to become as God is, working against all odds-and, I might add against every natural tendency God has supposedly given us.
Among these so called natural tendencies is the tendency to sin. We are taught that we are born in sin, That you will die in sin, and that sin is your nature.
The church teaches us we can do nothing about this. Our actions are irrelevant and meaningless. It is arrogant to think that by some action of our own we could get to heaven. There is only one way to get to heaven (salvation) that that is through no undertaking of our own, but through acceptance of his son as our intermediary
Once this is done your are "saved". Until it is done, nothing that we do -not in life, not the choices you make, not anything you undertake of your own will in an effort to improve yourself or render you worthy- has any effect, bears any inflluence. We are incapable of rendering ourselfs worthy, because we are inherently unworthy. We were created that way.
Why? God only knows. Perhaps he made a mistake. Perhaps he didn't get it right. Maybe he wishes he could have it all to do over again. But there its is. What to do.
Then several thousand years ago God relented, saying that from now on you didn't have be good, you simply had to feel bad when you were not being good, and accept as your savior the one being who could always be perfect, thus satisfying God's hunger for perfection. Saying that Gods' son- who we call the perfect one - has saved us from our own imperfections- the imperfections GOD gave you.
In other words, Gods son has saved us from what His father did.
This is how we- many of us- say God has set it up.
Sounds silly to me...

This is one of the greatest posts I've ever read on this topic.
You hit the nail on the head.

My notion of Christianity has always been that Christians have the idea in mind, "See things my way or I'll burn your little hut down!" The Christian principles that we are talking about here in the USA are carved from the death of American Indians and their destroyed culture. We think of Islam as a rash and hateful religion, but how many throughout history have died at the hands of Christianity? Im no GOD hater and I do believe that if people would live their lives by the 10 commandments the world or at least our country would be a better place. But, that doesnt mean that Islam or some other religion has any less value to the people that believe in it.

Its like in the joke How hot is Hell where the author at one point says, As for souls entering hell, lets look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Some of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to hell. Since, there is more than one of these religions and people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all people and all souls go to hell. This is an excellent statement that points out how no one religion is better than any other because none of them are provable beyond a reasonable doubt.

The post where Jbiggs says, Your earlier post certainly showed you have a fear of morality and Christians. People always fear what they don't understand. Morality is the cornerstone of civilization. Christianity is not based in fear but in love and compassion. I think you are missing the point. No one is saying that we have a fear of morality and Christians and at least I do believe that morality is the cornerstone of civilization. I just dont believe that Christianity is the only vehicle to get there. Their are people I know that believe that if their daughter was violently gang raped and got pregnant by it that she should still have the baby, because they believe that abortion is wrong. Its those Christians and that brand of Christianity that we fear. Again the, See things my way or I'll burn your little hut down!" way of thinking that some Christians have is what is frightening and the fact that they push this type of thinking on us. This is what we are afraid George Bush will do, push the conservative agenda down our throats. If Christianity, as you say, is based in love and compassion, then love people for who they are and for their beliefs. And have compassion for those that do not share you particular value system.

 

[jbiggs]

Christianity is just one form of Religion.

But your post shows you also don't understand Christianity. You have to understand there will always be zealots who will take things to the extreme. (on the right and on the left).

No true Christian would say you'll burn in hell if you don't attend their "brand of Christianity." The way to heaven is through the relationship each of us has with their Lord and Savior. It is personal and no one should judge it.

The Conserative agenda is not completely based on religion. Christians and those of other religions tend to vote that way, but so do many who don't attend church.

As far as pushing an agenda, we live in a Democracy, and the people have spoken. They voted for the agenda that was put forward. Your Liberal view is a decreasing sect of society.

 

[Vicious cycle]

Christianity is just one form of Religion.

But your post shows you also don't understand Christianity. You have to understand there will always be zealots who will take things to the extreme. (on the right and on the left).

No true Christian would say you'll burn in hell if you don't attend their "brand of Christianity." The way to heaven is through the relationship each of us has with their Lord and Savior. It is personal and no one should judge it.

The Conserative agenda is not completely based on religion. Christians and those of other religions tend to vote that way, but so do many who don't attend church.

As far as pushing an agenda, we live in a Democracy, and the people have spoken. They voted for the agenda that was put forward. Your Liberal view is a decreasing sect of society.

You are right, there will always be zealots who will take things to the extreme (on the right and on the left). You should no more take Bob Durgin's word as gold than you should Michael Moores word. They are both as you said zealots.

I do, however, understand Christianity. And the fact that you would say, "No true Christian would say you'll burn in hell if you don't attend their ""brand of Christianity."" shows me that you do not understand Christianity.

What makes a "true Christian" in your eyes is a sinner to many other Christians. I had this discussion with a born-again Christian that I worked with once. He said that Mother Teresa would be going to Hell because she wasn't born again. It's these people that won the race for George Bush. The higher than usual turnout wasn't from young folks as many first thought. It was from radical Christians. A billboard on a major highway where I live summed it up best. It read in whole, Followers of Jesus Christ, where are you. VOTE. These are the folks that put the election over the top for GWB; they give no care to the economy, national debt, war on terror, or the war in Iraq (and yes, they are separate wars). These radical Christians care only that their brand of morals are spread throughout this country and the rest of the world. And contrary to popular belief, they are not a small percentage of people. Congratulations on siding with them and if your wife or girlfriend should ever become pregnant after Roe v. Wade is over turned; just remember, your vote helped shape the moral climate of the country for decades to come and the choice to bring a child into this world as well as many other freedoms will no longer be up to you they will be up to those that, voted for the agenda that was put forward. And as far as my, Liberal view is a decreasing sect of society. Im sure glad youre ok with 50.96% of the country making all the policies for the other 49.04%.

If you can see that calling 49.04% of Americans a decreasing sect of society thereby dismissing their views and opinions, well you will have learned true, as you put it, love and compassion.

 

[Kayz]

Im sure glad youre ok with 50.96% of the country making all the policies for the other 49.04%.

If you can see that calling 49.04% of Americans a decreasing sect of society thereby dismissing their views and opinions, well you will have learned true, as you put it, love and compassion.

...on the flipside, that 49.04% of individuals repeatedly say that "the 50.96% of society cannot think for themselves...they base all their thoguhts on religion". The left in this country are just as guilty as the right. Why should that 49.04% of individuals, whom are the minority by definition, dictate public policy for the MAJORITY (by definiton) of 50.96%???

Also, religion helped Bush win and it helped Kerry lose. In the closing weeks of the campaign, Kerry started talking about his faith daily!!! HIS base does not want to hear that as that is not their views.

I think Kerry's views on religion hurt him.

 

[bustafood]

Christianity is based on fear... If your not a Christian you'll burn in hell. Not much love there. Perhaps your the one who misunderstands Christianity. I believe morality is the bases of our world. Explains why the world is the way it is.

Yet the thinking mind begs to ask: if God has a way he wants me to be, then why didn't he simply create me that way to begin with? Why all this struggle for me to overcome who I am in order for me to become what God wants me to be? Christians would have you believe that God created you less than who God is, so you can have a chance to become as God is, working against all odds-and, I might add against every natural tendency God has supposedly given us.
Among these so called natural tendencies is the tendency to sin. We are taught that we are born in sin, That you will die in sin, and that sin is your nature.
The church teaches us we can do nothing about this. Our actions are irrelevant and meaningless. It is arrogant to think that by some action of our own we could get to heaven. There is only one way to get to heaven (salvation) that that is through no undertaking of our own, but through acceptance of his son as our intermediary
Once this is done your are "saved". Until it is done, nothing that we do -not in life, not the choices you make, not anything you undertake of your own will in an effort to improve yourself or render you worthy- has any effect, bears any inflluence. We are incapable of rendering ourselfs worthy, because we are inherently unworthy. We were created that way.
Why? God only knows. Perhaps he made a mistake. Perhaps he didn't get it right. Maybe he wishes he could have it all to do over again. But there its is. What to do.
Then several thousand years ago God relented, saying that from now on you didn't have be good, you simply had to feel bad when you were not being good, and accept as your savior the one being who could always be perfect, thus satisfying God's hunger for perfection. Saying that Gods' son- who we call the perfect one - has saved us from our own imperfections- the imperfections GOD gave you.
In other words, Gods son has saved us from what His father did.
This is how we- many of us- say God has set it up.
Sounds silly to me...

Wow your whole post just shows your ignorance about Christianity. I'm Christian. I don't walk around thinking less of people telling them to burn in hell if they don't share the same beliefs as me. True Christians want to lead others to Christ, not sit there and judge them by saying they are going to burn in hell. As with any group, there will always be extremists, nice of you to to use them when giving your examples.

Then you talk about why didn't God make me the way he wanted me to be? If he wanted me to follow him and believe in him why didn't he just make me that way in the first place you ask. Let me ask you something, would you want your kids to be pre-programmed who are already going to come out exactly as you want them. Or do you want them to go through life, make decisions using an open mind, hopefully to do the right thing and come to believe what you always hoped they would? To love you for what you do for them, and that you're their father? Would that mean more to you, rather than them being "made that way"?

 

[Kayz]

Wow your whole post just shows your ignorance about Christianity. I'm Christian. I don't walk around thinking less of people telling them to burn in hell if they don't share the same beliefs as me. True Christians want to lead others to Christ, not sit there and judge them by saying they are going to burn in hell. As with any group, there will always be extremists, nice of you to to use them when giving your examples.

Then you talk about why didn't God make me the way he wanted me to be? If he wanted me to follow him and believe in him why didn't he just make me that way in the first place you ask. Let me ask you something, would you want your kids to be pre-programmed who are already going to come out exactly as you want them. Or do you want them to go through life, make decisions using an open mind, hopefully to do the right thing and come to believe what you always hoped they would? To love you for what you do for them, and that you're their father? Would that mean more to you, rather than them being "made that way"?

True...God's gift to man is "free choice". It is both our strength and our weekness.

 

[Instock]

First off congrats to all who got out and voted. This country makes me proud when I see turnout numbers such as the ones for Nov 2 elections.
This country has demonstrated in clear terms its state of mind. This country is afraid. Fear dominates the agenda. Why do I say that?

Polls across the nation asked one simple question as what issue matters most in this election.
The number one reason people voted like they did was based on the canidates' morality! Morals was more important than jobs, national security or healtha care.
Morals? That a poor indication of potential. Its no indication of intelect. Its no indication of job performance.

Do you really decide who you pick for your Physician, dentist, pilot, police officer, based on thier moral view points. If they are for or against abortion. For or against the death penalty. For or against gay marriage.
What if your current job/ business was obtained based on your moral beliefs?
Would you have been hired for that job. Would that be the primary reason to hire a baby sitter to watch your child?
The products we buy, are they based on the producers moral inclenations?
Why then elect a President primarily based on his "supposed higher moral standards"
If christianity is the standard which to live by, Why is this world so screwed up.
This nation is afraid and based on that fear it made its choice. SAD
Next time you who voted for Bush buy a car or a house or a computer, make sure the manufaturer goes to church every sunday... LOL what a joke people.
The joke is Bush is no more moral than Kerry. The punch line is he is far less intelligent/competent enough to lead this country.
Fear rules!!!!!!!!!!

Morality is the basis of everything. Have you ever read mere christianity or even seven habits of highly effective people? Both start out with the first chapters demonstrating how morality/integrity must first be found before people can truly succeed and be happy. Morality is more than just my belief on abortion or gay rights. Its main stay is not cheating or lying, taking responsibility, giving, loving, forgetful, loyal, steadfast, greedless, and most importantly truly humble. And yes I will pick every person in my life from friends to employees to my doctor and lawyer based on those principals I just laid out. And 10000% I would pick my babysitter on those beliefs (I mean who the fuck wouldn't, sure wouldn't want to be your kid). I saw more of that in bush then kerry. End of story.

 

[Vicious cycle]

Wow your whole post just shows your ignorance about Christianity. I'm Christian. I don't walk around thinking less of people telling them to burn in hell if they don't share the same beliefs as me. True Christians want to lead others to Christ, not sit there and judge them by saying they are going to burn in hell. As with any group, there will always be extremists, nice of you to to use them when giving your examples.

Then you talk about why didn't God make me the way he wanted me to be? If he wanted me to follow him and believe in him why didn't he just make me that way in the first place you ask. Let me ask you something, would you want your kids to be pre-programmed who are already going to come out exactly as you want them. Or do you want them to go through life, make decisions using an open mind, hopefully to do the right thing and come to believe what you always hoped they would? To love you for what you do for them, and that you're their father? Would that mean more to you, rather than them being "made that way"?

I dont understand your thinking. Christianity still has an "or else" mentality to it. What I mean by this is, as Kayz said, God's gift to man is "free choice". But, if you dont do it his way you will rot in Hell with the worms. That doesnt sound like much of a choice now does it?

Bustafood, have you ever considered the possibility that some people dont want to be, lead to Christ, that they might believe something else?

 

[Vicious cycle]

...on the flipside, that 49.04% of individuals repeatedly say that "the 50.96% of society cannot think for themselves...they base all their thoguhts on religion". The left in this country are just as guilty as the right. Why should that 49.04% of individuals, whom are the minority by definition, dictate public policy for the MAJORITY (by definiton) of 50.96%???

Also, religion helped Bush win and it helped Kerry lose. In the closing weeks of the campaign, Kerry started talking about his faith daily!!! HIS base does not want to hear that as that is not their views.

I think Kerry's views on religion hurt him.

I couldn't agree more with the statement, "The left in this country are just as guilty as the right." The more the right pulls, the harder the left pulls and you are left with a polerized nation. BOTH sides need to give a little, it's called compromise. But I'm afraid that is the point most of you are missing, you are unwilling to give at all and it shows in this thread. Several times now I have said that I can see things your guys way. I have yet to see any of you even try to see things my or DaRoosters way. We all need to learn to do more of what the narrator said in Fight Club, "to let that which does not matter truly slide".

 

[Vicious cycle]

Morality is the basis of everything. Have you ever read mere christianity or even seven habits of highly effective people? Both start out with the first chapters demonstrating how morality/integrity must first be found before people can truly succeed and be happy. Morality is more than just my belief on abortion or gay rights. Its main stay is not cheating or lying, taking responsibility, giving, loving, forgetful, loyal, steadfast, greedless, and most importantly truly humble. And yes I will pick every person in my life from friends to employees to my doctor and lawyer based on those principals I just laid out. And 10000% I would pick my babysitter on those beliefs (I mean who the fuck wouldn't, sure wouldn't want to be your kid). I saw more of that in bush then kerry. End of story.

I'm puzzled...You do know that Greorge Bush is against Steroids, right. He dislikes Steroids so much that he has now taken prohormones off the market (even though we all knew they were worthless anyway). And that if he knew what we were all doing here he would put us in jail. I think you of all people would understand that.

It amazes me that ANYBODY on this board or board like it would vote for GWB.

 

[jbiggs]

I'm puzzled...You do know that Greorge Bush is against Steroids, right. He dislikes Steroids so much that he has now taken prohormones off the market (even though we all knew they were worthless anyway). And that if he knew what we were all doing here he would put us in jail. I think you of all people would understand that.

It amazes me that ANYBODY on this board or board like it would vote for GWB.

And you realize it was a Dem who authored the bill of which you speak. It was co-sponsored by 10 others including John McCain.

What kind of political outrage would there have been if he didn't sign it.

Remember...people believe the lies the media puts out.

 

[Mark Kerr]

I do, however, understand Christianity. And the fact that you would say, "No true Christian would say you'll burn in hell if you don't attend their ""brand of Christianity."" shows me that you do not understand Christianity.

Your first mistake was thinking that you could understand Christianity by studying Christians...

 

[bustafood]

I dont understand your thinking. Christianity still has an "or else" mentality to it. What I mean by this is, as Kayz said, God's gift to man is "free choice". But, if you dont do it his way you will rot in Hell with the worms. That doesnt sound like much of a choice now does it?

Bustafood, have you ever considered the possibility that some people dont want to be, lead to Christ, that they might believe something else?

The Bible tells you what God wants for you. It's your choice whether to believe or not. There will always be a choice, eternal life or eternal damnation. Take it or leave it.

Like they say, life isnt fair. Those are the choices, and since I believe in God and have faith I've already made mine. If you don't believe in either heaven or hell that's your decision too.

And yes, I have considered that some people do not want to be lead to Christ. I'll at least try and reach out to someone, because I do care about them. I won't be a bible thumper though and shove it down their throat. I'll let them make their own decision. It's like the saying you're only showing them the door, it's their choice whether or not they want to walk through it.

I know I'm coming off as a religious nut here, really I'm not lol. I usually just talk about guns and trucks. But God will always be part of my life.

 

[Vicious cycle]

And you realize it was a Dem who authored the bill of which you speak. It was co-sponsored by 10 others including John McCain.

What kind of political outrage would there have been if he didn't sign it.

Remember...people believe the lies the media puts out.

That has zero to do with nothing. Who cares who authored it, Bush signed it. Bush made it an issue in his State of the Union address. Bush's father who made it illegal to begin with. Don't listen to the media, just look at the facts.

So if you don't believe the media, where are you getting your truth from? Bob Drugen and Rush Limbaugh? As someone said earlier, zelots on either side scare me.

 

[Vicious cycle]

Your first mistake was thinking that you could understand Christianity by studying Christians...

Huh?

 

[Vicious cycle]

The Bible tells you what God wants for you. It's your choice whether to believe or not. There will always be a choice, eternal life or eternal damnation. Take it or leave it.

Like they say, life isnt fair. Those are the choices, and since I believe in God and have faith I've already made mine. If you don't believe in either heaven or hell that's your decision too.

And yes, I have considered that some people do not want to be lead to Christ. I'll at least try and reach out to someone, because I do care about them. I won't be a bible thumper though and shove it down their throat. I'll let them make their own decision. It's like the saying you're only showing them the door, it's their choice whether or not they want to walk through it.

I know I'm coming off as a religious nut here, really I'm not lol. I usually just talk about guns and trucks. But God will always be part of my life.

Thanks, I think I'll leave it then. Your brand of faith sounds more like slavery than free choice. Plantation negros had a choice too right, work in slavery or be killed and beaten. But hey, like you said, "life isn't fair".

I don't think you are a religious nut, I think you took a stand and now you are defending it to the best of your ability. There is nothing wrong with that. And to all of you in this thread that I have been bantering with, I appreceiate the fact that it has been kept mature.

These elections, if nothing else, give people like us a chance to express their views and try to reach some common ground.

 

[black0ut]

It upsets me that people base their choices on something they don't know to be true or false. I am lutheran, and I do believe in the existence of a greater being, but I've never seen God. I read the bible, but it IS just a story told by someone who none of us have ever met. I wear a cross around my neck, because I have faith in life after death, but I've never experienced it, nor had anyone come back and tell me it exists. I simply can't base my ideas on something that MIGHT be true. Many will say that religion is a crutch for those who can't think on their own, and need a set of rules to follow. Religion in itself is a great system, supposedly punishing people indefinately for their wrong-doings.But, it is just that, a system created ages ago that none of us had a say in.

I can see what's happening in the world now, and I have to base my choices on that. I see our economy failing, I see people losing jobs, and I see poor choices with foreign policies, but I don't see God coming down and stepping in to correct the issue. It's the job of the president to correct the issues. This is a pretty simple idea right? It is, but people would rather vote for someone who has the same beliefs as them, whether or not they will make better choices about the nation we live in.

 

[Kayz]

I can see what's happening in the world now, and I have to base my choices on that. I see our economy failing, I see people losing jobs, and I see poor choices with foreign policies, but I don't see God coming down and stepping in to correct the issue. It's the job of the president to correct the issues. This is a pretty simple idea right? It is, but people would rather vote for someone who has the same beliefs as them, whether or not they will make better choices about the nation we live in.

...and I see an economy on the rebound gaining strenght, I see jobs being created after a recession compouned by the acts on 9/11, and I see a foreign policy in which we are finally standing up for ourselves and not allowing other countries to dictate our national security.

It's all relative and how you look at things. So in my case, I did vote for Bush because he shares my same beliefs, which go way beyond gay marriage and abortion. They encompass all the things listed above.