I'm not irrevocably fucked, right?

[BillionsMustLift]

Did a cycle, 22.5 weeks. Ran hcg the whole time, 250iu EOD. Stopped hcg before the PCT.
30 days-long PCT starting 10 days after last test injection. Enclomiphene 12.5mg ED
Bloodwork taken about 2 months after end of PCT showed, among other things, low test (262 ng/dl vs 425 natty) and low LH (2.1 mIU/mL vs 3.7 natty). FSH was fine, 1.1 mIU/mL vs 1.4 natty.

I've come to the conclusion that my PCT was dogshit, and that I should've run nolva and ran it for longer. I've chatted with a user who was in the same situation, he did a late PCT with nolva which fixed his problem. But also, might've just been natural recovery over the extra time.

Anyway, I'm gonna be doing 20mg nolvadex ED, it's been about 5 months since the end of my cycle proper (bloodwork is about 2 months old and I still feel low test). I know the standard is about 7 weeks, I was thinking about doing just 4 since I'm already partially recovered, but also, I already scuffed it once, I don't want to again.

Anyway, this doesn't mean I'm now permanently hypogonadic, right?

 

[rxzed]

Only time will tell. Most people will recover without doing any PCT given it's their first cycle. Don't go off "feels," get bloodwork, and then get it again in 3 months and compare.

 

[Mongo966]

Did a cycle, 22.5 weeks. Ran hcg the whole time, 250iu EOD. Stopped hcg before the PCT.
30 days-long PCT starting 10 days after last test injection. Enclomiphene 12.5mg ED
Bloodwork taken about 2 months after end of PCT showed, among other things, low test (262 ng/dl vs 425 natty) and low LH (2.1 mIU/mL vs 3.7 natty). FSH was fine, 1.1 mIU/mL vs 1.4 natty.

I've come to the conclusion that my PCT was dogshit, and that I should've run nolva and ran it for longer. I've chatted with a user who was in the same situation, he did a late PCT with nolva which fixed his problem. But also, might've just been natural recovery over the extra time.

Anyway, I'm gonna be doing 20mg nolvadex ED, it's been about 5 months since the end of my cycle proper (bloodwork is about 2 months old and I still feel low test). I know the standard is about 7 weeks, I was thinking about doing just 4 since I'm already partially recovered, but also, I already scuffed it once, I don't want to again.

Anyway, this doesn't mean I'm now permanently hypogonadic, right?

Stop taking drugs, for fuck sakes.
Go get blood work.

 

[pipo]

How old you are?
Isn't necessary to tale any more meds. Give some time and you will recover if your body is able to recover. But not everyone recover.
Get some bloods to see where you are now and reassess accordingly after

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

The HAARLEM study suggests post-cycle therapy (PCT) doesn't work

peterbond.org

 

[xrayphoton13]

Why did you stop the HCG so early? I would think running it for a few weeks after you stop the cycle would be beneficial as the steroid esters slowly leave your system. Depending what esters you could have still been on cycle for another month or two after your last injection.
Of course you also have guys like broderick Chavez who says the best pct is cold turkey, no drugs at all. So you're not fucked. Run some HCG for a few more weeks if you wanna see if it helps. But test levels can be all over the place depending on time of day you tested and whether you are in a calorie deficit or surplus, etc.

Glad you found out nolva is better than enclomiphene. I'm not a fan of clomid/enclo since they can cause permanent eye damage and floaters. My eyes are already fucked enough

 

[Mac11wildcat]

Did a cycle, 22.5 weeks. Ran hcg the whole time, 250iu EOD. Stopped hcg before the PCT.
30 days-long PCT starting 10 days after last test injection. Enclomiphene 12.5mg ED
Bloodwork taken about 2 months after end of PCT showed, among other things, low test (262 ng/dl vs 425 natty) and low LH (2.1 mIU/mL vs 3.7 natty). FSH was fine, 1.1 mIU/mL vs 1.4 natty.

I've come to the conclusion that my PCT was dogshit, and that I should've run nolva and ran it for longer. I've chatted with a user who was in the same situation, he did a late PCT with nolva which fixed his problem. But also, might've just been natural recovery over the extra time.

Anyway, I'm gonna be doing 20mg nolvadex ED, it's been about 5 months since the end of my cycle proper (bloodwork is about 2 months old and I still feel low test). I know the standard is about 7 weeks, I was thinking about doing just 4 since I'm already partially recovered, but also, I already scuffed it once, I don't want to again.

Anyway, this doesn't mean I'm now permanently hypogonadic, right?

You stopped HCG and started your PCT before test was even remotely close to being out of your system and used a horrendously low/inadequate PCT a that - this result should be no surprise.

10 days is <2 half lives assuming you used cyp or E.

Additionally, this is ALWAYS a possibility. Recovering from a cycle is never guaranteed.

Two options:
1. Run a REAL pct
2. Stop using all drugs and just wait

That 262 is likely entirely from natural recovery, not your pct.

 

[malfeasance]

The HAARLEM study suggests post-cycle therapy (PCT) doesn't work

peterbond.org

I knew there was some research saying PCT really made no difference.

Thanks for digging this up.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

I knew there was some research saying PCT really made no difference.

Thanks for digging this up.

Just be aware that this isn’t really a study to learn the lesson of “pct doesnt work.”

They don’t standardize the approach, the dosages, the drugs themselves, etc

The most appropriate takeaway is “people don’t know how to PCT;” rather appropriate for where we’re at in this thread.

 

[malfeasance]

I get all that Mac11wildcat, but it is all there is, as in, the only real evidence, whatever its shortcomings.

 

[Ghoul]

I get all that Mac11wildcat, but it is all there is, as in, the only real evidence, whatever its shortcomings.

Some issues will seemingly never be settled. Always keep in mind there are strict ethical barriers that prevent clinical testing on healthy subjects with anything that could adversely impact their health, so we've got to take what we can get.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

Some issues will seemingly never be settled. Always keep in mind there are strict ethical barriers that prevent clinical testing on healthy subjects with anything that could adversely impact their health, so we've got to take what we can get.

100% - but that doesn’t make every study useful evidence or worthy of supporting a finding. Half of fitness/bodybuilding instagram/tiktok is uneducated 20yr old incorrectly interpreting data out of terribly designed studies

 

[Ghoul]

100% - but that doesn’t make every study useful evidence or worthy of supporting a finding. Half of fitness/bodybuilding instagram/tiktok is uneducated 20yr old incorrectly interpreting data out of terribly designed studies

Social media, in the main, leaves you less well informed about almost any topic than before you started. There are a few exceptions, but they're the minority and picking those out from the trash is a skill unto itself.

 

[BillionsMustLift]

Only time will tell. Most people will recover without doing any PCT given it's their first cycle. Don't go off "feels," get bloodwork, and then get it again in 3 months and compare.

Stop taking drugs, for fuck sakes.
Go get blood work.

Yes I do plan on it in a month or so's time. The way these messages are worded almost make me believe you guys think I don't get bloodwork, which would be funny considering my post references results from two separate blood tests.

As for not taking drugs, yes I totally stopped about 4 months ago, which is kinda my problem, if you didn't read that part of my post.

 

[BillionsMustLift]

Why did you stop the HCG so early? I would think running it for a few weeks after you stop the cycle would be beneficial as the steroid esters slowly leave your system. Depending what esters you could have still been on cycle for another month or two after your last injection.
Of course you also have guys like broderick Chavez who says the best pct is cold turkey, no drugs at all. So you're not fucked. Run some HCG for a few more weeks if you wanna see if it helps. But test levels can be all over the place depending on time of day you tested and whether you are in a calorie deficit or surplus, etc.

Glad you found out nolva is better than enclomiphene. I'm not a fan of clomid/enclo since they can cause permanent eye damage and floaters. My eyes are already fucked enough

HCG, in mimicking LH, produces a negative feedback loop, where the pituitary gland will halt output of LH until HCG use is discontinued. Therefore, on paper, stopping HCG before starting the PCT SERM is ideal.

Now anecdotal experience leads me to agree with you, in that I should've ran hcg for a few weeks after stopping the cycle, into my PCT, as a sort of bridge. But also, I was still using enclo, and enclo sucks dick, so I doubt it would've made that much of a difference

 

[malfeasance]

Bloodwork taken about 2 months after end of PCT showed, among other things, low test (262 ng/dl vs 425 natty) and low LH (2.1 mIU/mL vs 3.7 natty). FSH was fine, 1.1 mIU/mL vs 1.4 natty.

As for not taking drugs, yes I totally stopped about 4 months ago, which is kinda my problem, if you didn't read that part of my post.

Ok, so the bloodwork was about two months ago, which was itself two months after PCT? (4 months with no PCT drugs or hormones).

How old are you, and how is your physical condition (especially lean or not)?

Are you still lifting and eating a good diet?

You asked, "Anyway, this doesn't mean I'm now permanently hypogonadic, right?"

I highly doubt it.

The body has a way of springing back, but it takes time.

You are going to get different viewpoints on PCT. As you can see from the discussion above, there is not a lot of good data available.

What are your symptoms? Libido? Can you get an erection?

 

[xrayphoton13]

HCG, in mimicking LH, produces a negative feedback loop, where the pituitary gland will halt output of LH until HCG use is discontinued. Therefore, on paper, stopping HCG before starting the PCT SERM is ideal.

Now anecdotal experience leads me to agree with you, in that I should've ran hcg for a few weeks after stopping the cycle, into my PCT, as a sort of bridge. But also, I was still using enclo, and enclo sucks dick, so I doubt it would've made that much of a difference

I'll admit I don't follow the latest pct guidelines but the steroids reddit https://reddit.com/r/steroids/w/thecycle/pct?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share does mention that with long esters PCT starts two weeks after your last injection while the esters are being cleared so HCG should have been run two weeks after your last Injection and then start the serm nolva

 

[BillionsMustLift]

Ok, so the bloodwork was about two months ago, which was itself two months after PCT? (4 months with no PCT drugs or hormones).

How old are you, and how is your physical condition (especially lean or not)?

Are you still lifting and eating a good diet?

You asked, "Anyway, this doesn't mean I'm now permanently hypogonadic, right?"

I highly doubt it.

The body has a way of springing back, but it takes time.

You are going to get different viewpoints on PCT. As you can see from the discussion above, there is not a lot of good data available.

What are your symptoms? Libido? Can you get an erection?

Yes, bloodwork taken Dec. 20, last Enclomiphene dose was Oct. 16. Last test e dose was Sept. 9.

24, I am lean and have been all my life.

Yes, never stopped lifting, but I do have a tendency to undereat, I will admit. I also got really sick for a week 2 weeks ago and lost about 10lbs.

As for my symptoms, yes I can get erections, but I usually don't have morning wood. I'm also not raging horny, like before I could get turned on by a picture, now I need to be touching my girl to get an erection generally. So, less libido. Also some lethargy, long recovery etc.

I do think I will continue to recover to be honest, regardless of whether I take some nolva or not, but man it just sucks being like this, so I'd like to speed things up if possible.

 

[Mongo966]

Yes I do plan on it in a month or so's time. The way these messages are worded almost make me believe you guys think I don't get bloodwork, which would be funny considering my post references results from two separate blood tests.

As for not taking drugs, yes I totally stopped about 4 months ago, which is kinda my problem, if you didn't read that part of my post.

Your bloodwork is months old, dummy. Go get new bloodwork and find out where your levels are. They might be back to normal.

Or you could just ignore the free advice you’re getting, waste all of our time and energy, and go run nolva without having a clue where your hormone levels are at.

Afterall, you’ve done lots of your own research. You have tons of experience. You can tell the difference between 262ng/dl and 425ng/dl. You know what you’re doing. You don’t need us.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

HCG, in mimicking LH, produces a negative feedback loop, where the pituitary gland will halt output of LH until HCG use is discontinued. Therefore, on paper, stopping HCG before starting the PCT SERM is ideal.

Now anecdotal experience leads me to agree with you, in that I should've ran hcg for a few weeks after stopping the cycle, into my PCT, as a sort of bridge. But also, I was still using enclo, and enclo sucks dick, so I doubt it would've made that much of a difference

Never said anything about overlapping hcg and clomid/nolva. Respectfully, I’ve helped like a dozen guys come off, after being on for various lengthy durations up to a decade, and about half of them did so to have kids and were then able to.

You seem defensive for someone asking for advice.

You failed a pct wirh an inadequate protocol and your bloodwork is now out of date. Maybe you’ve recovered in the couple months since. Maybe you haven’t. You don’t know for sure.

Get a simple panel run. Go from there.