IGF-1 Help

[Deadpool99]

I’m on H36 from SSA. Been using 8ius for 12 weeks. For the past 7 weeks been using 4ius. I tested my IGF-1 an hour after my 4iu daily injection but it shouldn’t matter correct? Since it’s cumulative, and have had consistent dosing for week.

Fuck me, does this mean my 3 kits of hgh are useless and I’ve been fucking around for months

What’s concerning is it’s SSA.
I should get a GH serum test. But do y’all think it’s possible this is how I react to 4ius? Seems impossible

 

[Deadpool99]

I wasn’t trying to catch a peak cuz theoretically it should elevated since I injected it everyday AM for months.

I’ll do a 10iu IM shot into my quad and do a GH serum test after 2 hours.

But from ur guy’s experience. I’m fucked right?

 

[Deadpool99]

After my panic attack, this kind of calmed me down.
Gh serum test is def important.

I’m going straight 1inch into my quads, not fucking around. I believe 2.5-3 hours should be enough correct? The spike shouldn’t taper down around or slightly after 3 hours in case of lab delays?

Get your actual GH levels tested after pinning 10iu GH IM

My IGF-1 was 130 on 6iu but my GH levels were 20 or so.

IGF-1 is a poor proxy for GH verification, better to measure the amount of GH in blood directly

 

[Civdiv]

I’m on H36 from SSA. Been using 8ius for 12 weeks. For the past 7 weeks been using 4ius. I tested my IGF-1 an hour after my 4iu daily injection but it shouldn’t matter correct? Since it’s cumulative, and have had consistent dosing for week.

Fuck me, does this mean my 3 kits of hgh are useless and I’ve been fucking around for months

What’s concerning is it’s SSA.
I should get a GH serum test. But do y’all think it’s possible this is how I react to 4ius? Seems impossible

Are you pinning gh fasted? It will bias towards lipolysis VS igf-1 if there's no carbs present. I jumped from 4iu to 6iu but was in a deep low carb cut and had decreased calories at the same time. I was pinning before fasted cardio. My igf-1 level actually dropped. I was using ssa 36iu the whole time. My wife was pinning from the same vial and hers increased.

 

[Ghoul]

Correct timing for IGF not critical, it's more of an average over time, while GH is transient, which is why endocrinologists use IGF to monitor rHGH treatment.

Many factors can impact GH --> IGF conversion.

Protein / calorie deficit, estrogen level, liver issues are the biggies.

It's likely not bunk (no other reports of that.) If it were, your natural IGF should be higher than that.

If you want to know for sure, 10iu IM an hour before GH test. Should be >30.

So what else are you using? Are you in a calorie deficit? Have you gotten liver values lately?

 

[Deadpool99]

Are you pinning gh fasted? It will bias towards lipolysis VS igf-1 if there's no carbs present. I jumped from 4iu to 6iu but was in a deep low carb cut and had decreased calories at the same time. I was pinning before fasted cardio. My igf-1 level actually dropped. I was using ssa 36iu the whole time. My wife was pinning from the same vial and hers increased.

Yes GH fasted and waiting 2 hours before any carbs

 

[Deadpool99]

Correct timing for IGF not critical, it's more of an average over time, while GH is transient, which is why endocrinologists use IGF to monitor rHGH treatment.

Many factors can impact GH --> IGF conversion.

Protein / calorie deficit, estrogen level, liver issues are the biggies.

It's likely not bunk (no other reports of that.) If it were, your natural IGF should be higher than that.

If you want to know for sure, 10iu IM an hour before GH test. Should be >30.

So what else are you using? Are you in a calorie deficit? Have you gotten liver values lately?

In a calorie deficit on clen/t3 and these my liver values. Btw I have chronically higher AST/ALT. These are actually my all time lowest including when I was natural.

Just introduced Glutathione to bring them down

Let’s say I do a 10IU IM injection and test around the 3 hours mark. Is that a good time? If I get indications it’s legit, does this mean 4ius isnt as effective for me seeing my IGF1 levels like this?

 

[Deadpool99]

I literally could barley sleep thinking about that GH test, all my dreams were associated with testing it (dead ass)

 

[Deadpool99]

So, I recently started GH for the first time. Using 6iu pre-bed.

I had my IGF-1 tested after being on it a few weeks, and my levels are lower than they were before...
Only thing I can think of is that I'm on a cut and have been using 50mg Winstrol/day which can lower IGF-1 via IGFBP.

Anyone seen something like this before? Would really hate for it to be bunk...

Growth hormone induced increase in serum IGFBP-3 level is reversed by anabolic steroids in substance abusing power athletes - PubMed



View attachment 347093

Found another post with @ChemBB . Seems he ran into the same issue as me. Now I’m way less panicked.

Thanks for posting all the hard work on ur end trying to figure out.

 

[Deadpool99]

Now this sounds kinda backward thinking but if
If i have poor igf1, does that mean I should doss my hgh higher?

This means my body technically isn’t utilizing the 4ius to it’s fullest, as in not getting the presumed benefits (at-least not all of them), am I right to assume that?

Also on a second different note,
So if i increase my hgh to say 20ius, and my igf1 are lower like we see here, am I at risk at getting certain issues related to high igf-1 conversion, for example organ growth/cardiac remodeling

 

[Civdiv]

Correct timing for IGF not critical, it's more of an average over time, while GH is transient, which is why endocrinologists use IGF to monitor rHGH treatment.

Many factors can impact GH --> IGF conversion.

Protein / calorie deficit, estrogen level, liver issues are the biggies.

It's likely not bunk (no other reports of that.) If it were, your natural IGF should be higher than that.

If you want to know for sure, 10iu IM an hour before GH test. Should be >30.

So what else are you using? Are you in a calorie deficit? Have you gotten liver values lately?

@Ghoul
It's hard to convey tone over internet text so please take this as trying to understand VS challenge. I'm really trying to learn and my understanding is fairly limited.

From what I understood gh is pretty short acting in the body after pinning, but it's affects are longer lasting. I thought that if you pinned in a low carb environment the body's signal would be to liberate fat for energy, hence the lipolysis and fat burning benefits. If you're trying to grow, pinning in a well fed environment the body sees plenty of available nutrients and triggers the liver to produce igf-1. My understanding was timing was somewhat important.

To qualify my opinion, it comes from relentlessly pinging chatgpt. I say that because I recognize it can be pretty flawed if the questions aren't phrased correctly. I know you're more informed than I am about this so I'm hoping you can help me get this straight.

 

[Deadpool99]

@Ghoul
It's hard to convey tone over internet text so please take this as trying to understand VS challenge. I'm really trying to learn and my understanding is fairly limited.

From what I understood gh is pretty short acting in the body after pinning, but it's affects are longer lasting. I thought that if you pinned in a low carb environment the body's signal would be to liberate fat for energy, hence the lipolysis and fat burning benefits. If you're trying to grow, pinning in a well fed environment the body sees plenty of available nutrients and triggers the liver to produce igf-1. My understanding was timing was somewhat important.

To qualify my opinion, it comes from relentlessly pinging chatgpt. I say that because I recognize it can be pretty flawed if the questions aren't phrased correctly. I know you're more informed than I am about this so I'm hoping you can help me get this straight.

To my understanding ur correct, u need a fasted state/low insulin environment to utilize GH lipolysis effects. So no carbs for like 2 hours minimum.

To my knowledge ofc and what I have researched.

 

[Civdiv]

To my understanding ur correct, u need a fasted state/low insulin environment to utilize GH lipolysis effects. So no carbs for like 2 hours minimum.

To my knowledge ofc and what I have researched.

For what it's worth I agree you don't have bunk gh. At 4iu my igf-1 was around 320. I upped to 6iu and dropped to a 1200 calorie deficit and my igf-1 dropped to 242. On the same batch of ssa gh my wife's igf-1 increased with higher dose. Although I'm still leaning how it all works, it's almost certainly more physiological VS bunk gear.

 

[Ghoul]

In a calorie deficit on clen/t3 and these my liver values. Btw I have chronically higher AST/ALT. These are actually my all time lowest including when I was natural.

Just introduced Glutathione to bring them down

Let’s say I do a 10IU IM injection and test around the 3 hours mark. Is that a good time? If I get indications it’s legit, does this mean 4ius isnt as effective for me seeing my IGF1 levels like this?

OK, so if these were my numbers this would be my take:

Higher T3 increases GH receptor expression in the liver, which means more IGF per unit of GH.

However, calorie deficit and low insulin suppress GH receptor expression much more strongly, resulting in less IGF per unit of GH.

If you think about it, this makes evolutionary sense. When there's a calorie deficit, ie, low food supply, that's not an ideal time to build muscle. It's more important to mobilize fat stores and perform tissue repair (via higher circulating GH), than turning that GH into IGF to boost the "anabolic environment".

Unfortunately you also have some kind of liver problem, which also suppresses GH receptor expression, making IGF production per unit of GH even lower.

So you have high circulating GH, great for fat burning and things like skin renewal, not as useful for anabolism which is the reason BBs want high IGF.

HIV patients get those huge doses, 18iu for example, in part because to combat muscle wasting large doses are needed to overcome their trashed livers which have what's called "GH resistance" (not much IGF per unit of GH produced), to get IGF into normal levels.

So to increase IGF you need to do one or more:

Increase the dose (easiest and most effective way if you can tolerate any sides)

Increase protein intake a lot

Shrink the calorie deficit you're in

Address whatever's causing liver issues

----

If your main goal right now is to lose fat, especially visceral and liver fat, you could just keep doing what you're doing. Because IGF is borderline and likely to cause muscle catabolism, if you change nothing else, I would bump the dose up a little at least to get into the middle of the normal IGF range.

 

[Deadpool99]

For what it's worth I agree you don't have bunk gh. At 4iu my igf-1 was around 320. I upped to 6iu and dropped to a 1200 calorie deficit and my igf-1 dropped to 242. On the same batch of ssa gh my wife's igf-1 increased with higher dose. Although I'm still leaning how it all works, it's almost certainly more physiological VS bunk gear.

Thanks got the reassurance. Really appreciate the words to help me with my panic attack.

 

[Ghoul]

@Ghoul
It's hard to convey tone over internet text so please take this as trying to understand VS challenge. I'm really trying to learn and my understanding is fairly limited.

From what I understood gh is pretty short acting in the body after pinning, but it's affects are longer lasting. I thought that if you pinned in a low carb environment the body's signal would be to liberate fat for energy, hence the lipolysis and fat burning benefits. If you're trying to grow, pinning in a well fed environment the body sees plenty of available nutrients and triggers the liver to produce igf-1. My understanding was timing was somewhat important.

To qualify my opinion, it comes from relentlessly pinging chatgpt. I say that because I recognize it can be pretty flawed if the questions aren't phrased correctly. I know you're more informed than I am about this so I'm hoping you can help me get this straight.

You've got it right. I was referring to timing for testing IGF. IGF levels don't swing rapidly like GH levels. That's why doctors wait weeks after starting or changing a dose to perform an IGF test, since it takes that long to reach a stable IGF level.

GH on the other hand, rises fast, a matter of hours, and drops rapidly, That's why the 10iu IM injection followed by a GH test an hour or so later has long been the "is it real rHGH" test,

The point of fasting is to try and keep that GH around as long as possible so it releases maximum stored fat before being "lost" to IGF conversion, if fat loss is the priority. At some point, at a given dose, the amount of fat that will respond to GH signaling tapers off, the remaining fat being "GH resistant" (usually years or decades old long term deposits), which would need a higher dose to get to respond).

 

[Deadpool99]

OK, so if these were my numbers this would be my take:

Higher T3 increases GH receptor expression in the liver, which means more IGF per unit of GH.

However, calorie deficit and low insulin suppress GH receptor expression much more strongly, resulting in less IGF per unit of GH.

If you think about it, this makes evolutionary sense. When there's a calorie deficit, ie, low food supply, that's not an ideal time to build muscle. It's more important to mobilize fat stores and perform tissue repair (via higher circulating GH), than turning that GH into IGF to boost the "anabolic environment".

Unfortunately you also have some kind of liver problem, which also suppresses GH receptor expression, making IGF production per unit of GH even lower.

So you have high circulating GH, great for fat burning and things like skin renewal, not as useful for anabolism which is the reason BBs want high IGF.

HIV patients get those huge doses, 18iu for example, in part because to combat muscle wasting large doses are needed to overcome their trashed livers which have what's called "GH resistance" (not much IGF per unit of GH produced), to get IGF into normal levels.

So to increase IGF you need to do one or more:

Increase the dose (easiest and most effective way if you can tolerate any sides)

Increase protein intake a lot

Shrink the calorie deficit you're in

Address whatever's causing liver issues

----

If your main goal right now is to lose fat, especially visceral and liver fat, you could just keep doing what you're doing. Because IGF is borderline and likely to cause muscle catabolism, if you change nothing else, I would bump the dose up a little at least to get into the middle of the normal IGF range.

So cardiac remodeling and organ growth are due to several GH mechanisms but I believe IGF-1 is the biggest contributor. If I were to blast 12ius of hgh and my IGF-1 ULN would be way lower, would that mean the risks associated with high IGF-1 would be drastically lower yet I can get the lipolysis and fat burning/tdee effects of hgh?

I guess that still mean heavy IR/BG control tho.

 

[Ghoul]

So cardiac remodeling and organ growth are due to several GH mechanisms but I believe IGF-1 is the biggest contributor. If I were to blast 12ius of hgh and my IGF-1 ULN would be way lower, would that mean the risks associated with high IGF-1 would be drastically lower yet I can get the lipolysis and fat burning/tdee effects of hgh?

I guess that still mean heavy IR/BG control tho.

Yeah that's basically it.

Acromegaly is entirely driven by IGF.

GH can indirectly cause heart volume increase, but not from growth like IGF induced cardiac hypertrophy, but from heavier loading from high BP, sodium retention, excess water retention. Same things that make hearts enlarge in obese people and from excessively intense training.

So you have to keep an iron grip on BP. If it's controlled, the risk of heart enlargement becomes insignificant.

And all the other GH mediated risks increase of course. So controlling blood sugar and keeping an eye on kidney function become more important than at low rHGH doses,

If not already using one, a GLP would certainly help with the main concern of insulin resistance.

But as long as all that's in check, you'll get IGF up and benefit from faster and deeper fat lipolysis.

 

[AlysiaYeoh]

I’m on H36 from SSA. Been using 8ius for 12 weeks. For the past 7 weeks been using 4ius. I tested my IGF-1 an hour after my 4iu daily injection but it shouldn’t matter correct? Since it’s cumulative, and have had consistent dosing for week.

Fuck me, does this mean my 3 kits of hgh are useless and I’ve been fucking around for months

What’s concerning is it’s SSA.
I should get a GH serum test. But do y’all think it’s possible this is how I react to 4ius? Seems impossible

Damn, that's rough, bro. Seeing that IGF-1 result after all that time and product... I'd be pissed too.

I saw you mention a GH serum test – that's what ChemBB suggested to me when I was questioning my stuff. I think it's smart. I'd be curious to see what your levels actually are. I know Civdiv mentioned his IGF-1 was bunk but GH was decent.

Keep us updated, man. Hope it's just a weird reaction for you and not bunk gear.

 

[Deadpool99]

For reference so I don’t forget.
- 10iu (a little over to ensure all the solution including inside the leuer needle is injected)
- IM 1 inch 25G top of quad
- Blood Drawn at 2 hour 50min mark

I will also retest IGF1 during lean bulk for comparison.

This is gonna make me change my approach for my next cut. I might be able to go to 12-13.5ius easily without comprising my organs/heart. Ofc BG being perfect.

Look as long as I’m getting the fat loss properties of HGH, that’s my main concern. Tren is doing the heavy lifting anabolicily