Hgh and IGF levels

[initialize]

You’re taking enough to shut down endogenous production but not enough to replace what you were already producing.

That’s why everyone needs a clean baseline IGF. I’ll bet there are lots of people with lower IGF than they already had without rHGH.

Yes, increase the dose. Aim for a Z score 2-3 if you can get there with tolerable sides.

While you’re at it anyway, get A1C, HS-CRP, CMP, GGT, and if on gear and using an AI, e2.

These can impact IGF levels significantly.

What do you think is a good starting point if I was doing 3IU... maybe 4IU? And then retest in a month?

 

[Ghoul]

What do you think is a good starting point if I was doing 3IU... maybe 4IU? And then retest in a month?

That’s reasonable. 2 weeks is sufficient.

Add a thyroid panel to the list I gave you. TSH free t3 and free t4.

rHGH can deplete T4 so you may as well check that while having a blood draw.

Do you have a Z score from last IGF test?

 

[initialize]

That’s reasonable. 2 weeks is sufficient.

Add a thyroid panel to the list I gave you. TSH free t3 and free t4.

rHGH can deplete T4 so you may as well check that while having a blood draw.

Do you have a Z score from last IGF test?

Ok sounds good! Thanks

Z score was 0.6

 

[Ghoul]

Ok sounds good! Thanks

Z score was 0.6

Plenty of room in your safety margin. You’re just slightly above the mean (0 is where most your age are). 2 is max normal, up to 3 is still safe.

The other tests will show whether other factors are holding back IGF or you just need to titrate the dose up higher.

 

[initialize]

Plenty of room in your safety margin. You’re just slightly above the mean (0 is where most your age are). 2 is max normal, up to 3 is still safe.

The other tests will show whether other factors are holding back IGF or you just need to titrate the dose up higher.

While we're somewhat on the subject, I also got my ferritin back and it's low (11). Donated blood several months ago while I was blasting test and primo because my hct was low 50s... it's never been that high before and I could have been dehydrated so it was probably unnecessary on my end. Should I be supplementing with iron?

 

[Ghoul]

While we're somewhat on the subject, I also got my ferritin back and it's low (11). Donated blood several months ago while I was blasting test and primo because my hct was low 50s... it's never been that high before and I could have been dehydrated so it was probably unnecessary on my end. Should I be supplementing with iron?

Sorry man, out of my wheelhouse.

I will say unless I was symptomatic, I’d never supplement with iron.

In men, it permanently accumulates in tissue and is one of the drivers of organ aging. A lifetime of menstruating spares women from this problem.

 

[explodingHeart]

You’re taking enough to shut down endogenous production but not enough to replace what you were already producing.

That’s why everyone needs a clean baseline IGF. I’ll bet there are lots of people with lower IGF than they already had without rHGH.

Yes, increase the dose. Aim for a Z score 2-3 if you can get there with tolerable sides.

While you’re at it anyway, get A1C, HS-CRP, CMP, GGT, and if on gear and using an AI, e2.

These can impact IGF levels significantly.

GGT being some measure of liver healthy and IGF production capability?

I hit an hs-crp of 0.3mg at 40 on test + primo (despite getting massive welts on it at the time) and I'm not even sure why. Does GH lower it?

 

[Ghoul]

GGT being some measure of liver healthy and IGF production capability?

I hit an hs-crp of 0.3mg at 40 on test + primo (despite getting massive welts on it at the time) and I'm not even sure why. Does GH lower it?

Baseline (ie, no active infection) HS-CRP typical rises with age as various systems degrade and contribute to a steady increase in (unnecessary) inflammation. At our healthiest it’s under 0.5mg, for most that’s early 20s. (In Western societies. It’s much lower in some places like Japan).

(Quick reminder, endotoxin is part of a toxic bacteria’s outer wall, and the immune system sees endotoxin as evidence of live bacterial infection. It’s not the endotoxin that causes the harm, it’s the response)

GLPs, Statins and rHGH all strongly lower systemic inflammation, through completely different mechanisms (although there is some crossover).

Statins (Pita seems best at this) draw out and destroy “necrotic core” lipids that are inflammation factories within plaque, reducing baseline inflammation.

rHGH thickens intestinal walls, reducing endotoxin leakage. It also reduces visceral fat. Visceral fat is metabolically active, and responds to endotoxin leaking into the gut by triggering a strong inflammatory response.

GLPs directly inhibit and calm the Vagal nerve endotoxin response which acts as the brain’s endotoxin sensor. When the Vagal senses endotoxin, the brain interprets that to mean you’re fighting off bacteria somewhere, and triggers a release of pro-inflammatory compounds to “help” fight off the presumed “infection”. As we age, this system increases in sensitivity, continuously overreacts, and we end up with damage (esp joints, arterial lining, neurons),because of this unnecessary reaction.

 

[Proud Pangolin]

You’re taking enough to shut down endogenous production but not enough to replace what you were already producing.

That’s why everyone needs a clean baseline IGF. I’ll bet there are lots of people with lower IGF than they already had without rHGH.

Yes, increase the dose. Aim for a Z score 2-3 if you can get there with tolerable sides.

While you’re at it anyway, get A1C, HS-CRP, CMP, GGT, and if on gear and using an AI, e2.

These can impact IGF levels significantly.

Was just about to make a thread on this.

In September I got my baseline IGF levels before starting HGH and it came back at 269

I've been on HGH since then. Started at 2IU and bumped it up to 3IU for the last month or so. IGF levels just came back today at 187. WTF.

Should I continue at this dose or bump it up?

HOWEVER it could theoretically be that the anabolic effect is still higher wotg this systemic levels

But this isnt realistic. Its the other way around.

So your natural level may be 200 and now with rHGH your systemic igf-1 is 300.

HOWEVER the anabolic effect will be even lower because as i said, the systemic igf-1 is not relevant for anabolism. So what can happen is that sour systemic igf-1 raises due to the loss of pulsative GH/ long time elevated GH level due to rHGH.
But due to the loss of pulses, the autocrine igf-1 falls so you will have LESS ANABOLISM with HIGHER (systemic) IGF-1 LEVELS!!!

 

[explodingHeart]

Baseline (ie, no active infection) HS-CRP typical rises with age as various systems degrade and contribute to a steady increase in (unnecessary) inflammation. At our healthiest it’s under 0.5mg, for most that’s early 20s. (In Western societies. It’s much lower in some places like Japan).

(Quick reminder, endotoxin is part of a toxic bacteria’s outer wall, and the immune system sees endotoxin as evidence of live bacterial infection. It’s not the endotoxin that causes the harm, it’s the response)

GLPs, Statins and rHGH all strongly lower systemic inflammation, through completely different mechanisms (although there is some crossover).

Statins (Pita seems best at this) draw out and destroy “necrotic core” lipids that are inflammation factories within plaque, reducing baseline inflammation.

rHGH thickens intestinal walls, reducing endotoxin leakage. It also reduces visceral fat. Visceral fat is metabolically active, and responds to endotoxin leaking into the gut by triggering a strong inflammatory response.

GLPs directly inhibit and calm the Vagal nerve endotoxin response which acts as the brain’s endotoxin sensor. When the Vagal senses endotoxin, the brain interprets that to mean you’re fighting off bacteria somewhere, and triggers a release of pro-inflammatory compounds to “help” fight off the presumed “infection”. As we age, this system increases in sensitivity, continuously overreacts, and we end up with damage (esp joints, arterial lining, neurons),because of this unnecessary reaction.

That's a beautiful explanation, thanks man. I even copied it down to my health notes on anti-aging / BP management.

 

[initialize]

HOWEVER it could theoretically be that the anabolic effect is still higher wotg this systemic levels

But this isnt realistic. Its the other way around.

So your natural level may be 200 and now with rHGH your systemic igf-1 is 300.

HOWEVER the anabolic effect will be even lower because as i said, the systemic igf-1 is not relevant for anabolism. So what can happen is that sour systemic igf-1 raises due to the loss of pulsative GH/ long time elevated GH level due to rHGH.
But due to the loss of pulses, the autocrine igf-1 falls so you will have LESS ANABOLISM with HIGHER (systemic) IGF-1 LEVELS!!!

If this is the case, then how should I know whether to keep my same dose or increase it?

 

[Proud Pangolin]

If this is the case, then how should I know whether to keep my same dose or increase it?

You cant.

The question is: how old are you and whats your goal?


If your goal is anti aging, life imorovement and moderate anabolic and fatloss effect i woukd advise you to go with peptides. People say peptides arent effective, well tell.that to my swolen hands. People think that peptides arent effective because they dont know hoe to take them.

My protocoll right now (which i had to stop for a couple of days because i couldnt make a fist anymore and got bad carpel tunnel syndrom from the igf-1 an GH elevation):

-Morning before fasted cardio: 100mcg GHRP-2 + 100mcg CJC no DAC
(100mcg or 1mcg/kg bodyweight is considered tge saturation dosage)

After weight training: 100mcg GHRP-2 + 100mcg CJC no DAC

Right before bed: 2mg Tesamorelin + 500-600mcg Ipamorelin

I want to say that Tesamorelin with Ipamorelin is the real deal and absolutely the main driver here.

So if sou can afford it, it woukd be best to switch the morning dose with another 2mg Tesamorelin + 500-600mcg Ipamorelin but its not necessary believe me thos proticoll right now is already vers potent. On the other hand: if you dont mind spending 160€ per Month why not. Right now im pretty broke so yeah.

Some things to add:

When i say "take it right before bed" i dont mean you take it, go get a glass of water, take a piss ans rub one out before switching off tge lights. I mean, its the last thing you do before trying to fall asleep. The closer to your sleep the better.

Some things you could add to it
-Arginie silcate/AAKG and Citrulline. Arginine is a Somastatin inhibitor. I dont use it before bed because i used it as a pump booster and i have the feeling that im building up a tolerance so i want to save it for my workouts.

But if you dont use it, its a cheap way to further boost your peptides. Just take a big dose (i take 12g arhinine and 12g citrulline because its so damm cheap so yeah) 20min before you peptides (timing is imprtant though, shouldnt be to earyl nor to kate obviously)

Other things to boost your peptides:
-melantonin (again Soma supressor) which i take anyways for sleep
-GABA (however tge action isnt quiet clear)


Whats the other option? Welm you want real big anabolism.

Then i would adivise to take a real dosage of GH. Starting at 6IU. If you are young (in your 20s) i wouldnt go lower i would rather go higher.

With 8IU you can be sure, you will get significant anabolism.

But with 4 IU at a young age its not worth it. You may risk even lowering anabolism or even if you wont, you wont get a lot more from it. Then peptides is the better choice.


HOWEVER! This doesnt mean that there arent people (lets say 32 years old) that will get significant resukte from even 2 IU. Thats the thing, it depends on the individual.