[GUIDE]: Preventing Cardiovascular & Neurotoxic effects of AAS via Antioxidants

[ChemBB]

it wouldn't surprise me if reta and aas is interconnected for cardiac hypertrophy and remodeling from the animal models with gcgr putting synergstic stress on the heart long term

Semaglutide has been shown to decrease cardiac mass (which may be a good thing for BB'ers)

"Ketone Therapy Prevents Semaglutide-induced Loss of Cardiac Mass"

https://academic.oup.com/eurjpc/advance-article/doi/10.1093/eurjpc/zwaf605/8269281?login=false

 

[ChemBB]

I was under the impression that large doses of antioxidants should be taken away from training because it can interfere with the inflammatory process of building muscle. Do you have an opinion on that, or if it only really matters more when taken with vit c?

Yeah, I was worried about this too.

I did a fair bit of reading on the literature, and results seem inconclusive. Some studies show a negative effect, some show no effect, some show a positive effect.

For this reason, I take the NAC pre-bed and the Vit C a few hours from training.

 

[ChemBB]

The moment I added those with TMG, I was able to run 19 nors again

I recently started taking Betaine (TMG) after reading some papers on it as an ergogenic substance.

Both my wife and I think it's one of the few supplements that have made a difference in terms of strength/performance.

It's so cheap I just buy raw powder and dump 3g into my creatine pre-workout.

 

[JK1]

I didnt know about NAC or gluta affect on asthmatics. New NAC can be a good mucolytic.

I supplement thiamine (you should at least get 5 times the RDA),

How much you taking a day then?

. There is a number of mg where melatonin will make you a zombie the next day (for some that starts at 15 mg, some 50, and the true warrior takes 100 mg before bed,

Jesus thats a lot. For sure some people get hangover effect form much lower doses even 3mg. There's been some thinking I'm sure that a tiny does like <1mg is enough to nudge sleep in the right direction. Assuming more has other impacts on anti-oxidant effect and sleep onset though.

I want to mention a med aswell, agomelatine. Works really good, induce sleeping fast and will make go to sleep and wake up at the same time everynight.

I have this and use it. Not entirely in a sensible manner though, as i use it as needed which is not how it's been studied or used in practice. I just want a nudge to set my circ rhythm in the right direction occasionally and if it helps me sleep a little more when i'm stressed then thats good with me - even if it's placebo. The thing about agomelatine is the possible liver issues. In the context of oral AAS users i'm sure it's small fries but could be additive. I'm sure i cam across situations where users have just suddenly had liver markers shot up suddenly from it - with no prior signal. Little cautious with it but its an interesting drug for sure. Trazadone is also on the menu.

past tren abuse

what's the short history of your use in terms of dosing and duration?

 

[JK1]

it wouldn't surprise me if reta and aas is interconnected for cardiac hypertrophy and remodeling from the animal models with gcgr putting synergstic stress on the heart long term

That would be disappointing. Related or not and it may be a simplistic point to make but the apparent deleterious effects of the likes of reta on some peoples RHR/HR and HRV is not ideal.

 

[JK1]

I was under the impression that large doses of antioxidants should be taken away from training because it can interfere with the inflammatory process of building muscle. Do you have an opinion on that, or if it only really matters more when taken with vit c? I never looked into it, and just stuck to doing it at bedtime. I forget sometimes though and have done it near workouts before.

Same. I've been wary of it.

 

[professionaldyel]

I need to look into this but I've came across the Korea link to inj Glutathione before. Is it thought to be superior?

It’s superior for the price lmao. CN venders are selling it for $100 and slapping a $40-50 shipping fee. Out the door I just spent $90 for the equivalent from ace.

 

[RockyP]

Glucagon agonism in itself may not be the best thing but GLP-1 agonism attenuates cardiac hypertrophy through various pathways. If there were issues with Reta it would not have made it out of phase II trials. Seeing as how there are known cardiac effects for both GLP-1 and glucagon receptor agonism, this is not something that was ignored by the drug manufacturer during trials.

There are folks with lots of ulterior motives for things they post in this board, even when citing “references.” Pls keep that in mind, do your own reading, and draw your own conclusions.

 

[dinfar1337]

If there were issues with Reta it would not have made it out of phase II trials.

i dont believe you read the p 2 trials and even if you did with your previous posts you no where qualify enough to understand it.
no good cv data in it, just reported higher rhr, no mris or anything related to monitor cv factors

you're a funny old geezer but dont let it get to your head. you're spreading alot of shit info these days

 

[hellogre2]

I didnt know about NAC or gluta affect on asthmatics. New NAC can be a good mucolytic.

How much you taking a day then?



Jesus thats a lot. For sure some people get hangover effect form much lower doses even 3mg. There's been some thinking I'm sure that a tiny does like <1mg is enough to nudge sleep in the right direction. Assuming more has other impacts on anti-oxidant effect and sleep onset though.



I have this and use it. Not entirely in a sensible manner though, as i use it as needed which is not how it's been studied or used in practice. I just want a nudge to set my circ rhythm in the right direction occasionally and if it helps me sleep a little more when i'm stressed then thats good with me - even if it's placebo. The thing about agomelatine is the possible liver issues. In the context of oral AAS users i'm sure it's small fries but could be additive. I'm sure i cam across situations where users have just suddenly had liver markers shot up suddenly from it - with no prior signal. Little cautious with it but its an interesting drug for sure. Trazadone is also on the menu.


what's the short history of your use in terms of dosing and duration?

NAC orzlly wont kill you but infusion or high dose gluthathione in one shot at high speed and /or IV can provok bronchospam to asthmatic which can lethal. i use small dose of Im gluthathione and I take a long long time to puzh it. Albuterol inahler and clen near me in case of issue but in 2 years of use, never had any issue.


About melatonin I was refering to his antioxidant activity. 1 mg or less is enough for sleep.

Agomelatine hepatotoxicity happens to around 1% of patients (more than 3x the limits). 3 to 4% of patients face a small increase in liver enzyme (basicly nothing for us bodybuilder). Rest dont have any liver damage from the drug.

i dont use thiamine but benfotiamine which is thiamine on steroids.

 

[Muscle_up]

After my heart scare, I've been slowly accumulating research on compounds to help reduce/prevent damage from AAS.

There is mounting evidence that the majority of adverse effects of AAS are by-products of oxidative damage/stress.

Here is the collection of papers I've been able to find on using specific anti-oxidants to prevent/reduce impact on various organs:
(Personally, I was already taking Taurine and Ashwagandha, but I've ordered ALA, NAC, and ALCAR.)

Quick Overview by Compound

• Taurine — Nandrolone models
  • Signals: ↓ systolic BP; blunts ACE; ↑ NOx; normalizes hypercoagulability; multi-organ histology improvements
  • Mechanisms: RAAS/NO modulation; mild antiplatelet effects
• α-Lipoic Acid (ALA) — Nandrolone & methandienone models
  • Signals: ↓ renal oxidative stress & injury; ↓ cardiac injury markers; neurobehavioral rescue when paired with pentoxifylline
  • Mechanisms: Antioxidant; ↑ Nrf2/HO-1; ↓ NF-κB/TNF-α
• N-Acetylcysteine (NAC) — Nandrolone model
  • Signals: ↓ cardiac apoptosis & DNA damage; ↓ TLR4–NF-κB–NLRP3 activation; ↓ CK-MB/LDH
  • Mechanisms: Glutathione repletion; inflammasome down-modulation
• Melatonin — Stanozolol model + exercise stress
  • Signals: Prevents BP rise; improves ECG axis; boosts cardiac antioxidative enzymes
  • Mechanisms: Antioxidant; autonomic/circadian modulation
• Ashwagandha — Nandrolone neurotoxicity model
  • Signals: ↓ neuronal cell death; ↓ prodynorphin mRNA; ↓ AChE; histologic neuroprotection
  • Mechanisms: Antioxidant/anti-excitotoxic; cholinergic normalization
• Silymarin ± “Antox” (Se + vit A/C/E) — Nandrolone hepatic/renal models
  • Signals: Best overall improvements when combined (enzymes, urea/Cr, histology)
  • Mechanisms: Multi-antioxidant synergy; membrane stabilization
• Silymarin + Fenugreek — Nandrolone myopathy model
  • Signals: Ameliorates cardiac & skeletal muscle damage; combo favorable
  • Mechanisms: Antioxidant/anti-inflammatory
• Curcumin (nano ferrite–chitosan–curcumin NPs) — Nandrolone nephrotoxicity
  • Signals: Improved renal function, redox status, and inflammation (nano-formulation > standard)
  • Mechanisms: Free-radical scavenging; ↓ TNF-α/PCNA
• Damiana Extract — Trenbolone hepatic/renal model
  • Signals: Improved ALT/AST, urea/Cr; restored SOD/CAT/GSH; better histology
  • Mechanisms: Antioxidant/anti-inflammatory; membrane stabilization

Agent	AAS model	Model & dosing (abridged)	Primary endpoints	Outcome (protective?)	Mechanistic notes	Source
Ashwagandha	Nandrolone	Male rats; ND regimen (brain injury model); WS extract alongside ND	Hippocampal histology; cell death; prodynorphin mRNA; AChE activity	↓ cell death; ↓ prodynorphin mRNA; ↓ AChE; histology improved → neuroprotection	Antioxidant / anti-excitotoxic; cholinergic normalization	Withania somnifera ameliorates nandrolone-decanoate-induced brain damage in rats by inhibiting cell death, prodynorphin mRNA expression and acetylcholinesterase activity
Damiana extract	Trenbolone	Male rats; Tren ± Damiana	Serum ALT/AST, urea/creatinine; hepatic/renal histology; SOD/CAT/GSH/MDA	Improved liver/kidney tests; restored antioxidant enzymes; histology improved	Antioxidant / anti-inflammatory; membrane stabilization	Ameliorating Effect of Damiana (Turnera Diffusa) Extract against Trenbolone-induced Nephrotoxicity and Hepatotoxicity in Male Albino Rats
Nano ferrite–chitosan–curcumin NPs	Nandrolone	48 rats; ND 25 mg/kg/wk ×4; then CurNPs 50 mg/kg q48h ×2 wk or NF-CH-CurNPs 24 mg/kg q48h ×2 wk	Urea/Cr, electrolytes; MDA, CAT/SOD/GSH; PCNA, TNF-α; renal histology	Both nano-formulations improved renal function, redox status, inflammation; NF-CH-CurNPs best	Free-radical scavenging; anti-inflammatory (↓TNF-α, ↓PCNA)	Ameliorating and therapeutic impact of nano ferrite-chitosan-curcumin nanoparticles against nandrolone decanote induced renal toxicity, inflammation, and oxidative stress in male rats
Silymarin + “Antox” (Se + vit A/C/E)	Nandrolone	110 rats; ND 7.93 or 11.9 mg/kg; 8 wk ± silymarin and/or Antox	Body/organ weights; ALT/AST, bilirubin; urea/Cr; liver/kidney histology	Combo Silymarin+Antox gave largest improvements (enzymes, urea/Cr, histology)	Multi-antioxidant / free-radical-scavenging synergy	Effect of Nandrolone Decanoate (Anabolic Steroid) on the Liver and Kidney of Male Albino Rats and the Role of Antioxidant (Antox-Silymarin) as Adjuvant Therapy
Silymarin + Fenugreek	Nandrolone	Adult male rats; ND cardiotoxicity model ± silymarin and/or fenugreek	Cardiac/skeletal muscle histology; oxidative stress markers	Both agents ameliorated ND-induced myopathy; combo favorable	Antioxidant / anti-inflammatory	The toxic effects of anabolic steroids “nandrolone decanoate” on cardiac and skeletal muscles with the potential ameliorative effects of silymarin and fenugreek seeds extract in adult male albino rats
Melatonin	Stanozolol	Rats; STA 5 mg/kg s.c. 5 d/wk ×6 wk; melatonin 10 mg/kg i.p. 5 d/wk	BP, ECG axis; cardiac SOD/CAT	Melatonin prevented BP rise and axis deviation; modulated CAT	Antioxidant; autonomic modulation	Melatonin Reduces Oxidative Stress and Cardiovascular Changes Induced by Stanozolol in Rats Exposed to Swimming Exercise
Taurine	Nandrolone	32 rats; 12 wk ND ± taurine in drinking water	Systolic BP, ACE activity, NOx	Taurine prevented ND-induced BP rise and blunted ACE activity	RAAS modulation; NO biology	Impact of chronic administration of anabolic androgenic steroids and taurine on blood pressure in rats
Taurine	Nandrolone	Rats; chronic ND ± taurine	Thromboelastography (R, K, α, CI); clot lysis	ND induced hypercoagulability; taurine normalized clot kinetics	Anti-platelet / antithrombotic actions	Influence of chronic administration of anabolic androgenic steroids and taurine on haemostasis profile in rats: a thrombelastographic study
Taurine	Nandrolone	40 rats; control, taurine, ND, ND+taurine	CK-MB; testicular MDA/SOD/TNF-α; hippocampal/heart/testis histology & IHC	Taurine attenuated ND toxicity across biochemical & histologic endpoints	ROS/RNS quenching; anti-inflammatory	Ameliorative Effect of Taurine on Nandrolone Decanoate Induced Toxicity on Brain, Heart and Testis in Adult Male Albino Rats
Taurine	Nandrolone	30 rats; 8 wk ND ± taurine	Liver enzymes; histology	Partial hepatoprotection reported	Antioxidant	Effect of Nandrolone Decanoate on the liver of Adult Male Albino Rats and the Possible ameliorating role Of Taurine
α-Lipoic acid (ALA) ± Pentoxifylline	Nandrolone	Rats; ND 15 mg/kg q3d; ALA 100 mg/kg p.o.; PTX 200 mg/kg i.p.	Open-field, water maze, aggression; monoamines/GABA/ACh; MDA, TNF-α, AChE; Nrf2/HO-1, TNFR1	ND: anxiety, memory deficits, aggression, oxidative/inflammatory changes; ALA+PTX reversed	↑Nrf2/HO-1; ↓TNF-α/TNFR1; antioxidant & anti-inflammatory	Lipoic acid and pentoxifylline mitigate nandrolone decanoate-induced neurobehavioral perturbations in rats via re-balance of brain neurotransmitters, up-regulation of Nrf2/HO-1 pathway, and down-regulation of TNFR1 expression
α-Lipoic acid (ALA)	Nandrolone	Rat ND nephrotoxicity model ± ALA	Serum urea/Cr; renal MDA; antioxidant enzymes; histology	ALA attenuated ND nephrotoxicity	Antioxidant; possible NF-κB dampening	BIOCHEMICAL AND HISTOPATHOLOGICAL ASPECTS OF NANDROLONE DECANOATE NEPHROTOXICITY AND POTENTIAL IMPACT OF ALPHA LIPOIC ACID
α-Lipoic acid (ALA)	Dianabol (Methandienone)	20 rabbits; Methandienone 0.35 mg/kg ± ALA 10 mg/kg p.o.	CPK, CRP, troponin; heart/aorta histology	ALA lowered cardiac injury markers; histology improved	Antioxidant / anti-inflammatory	The Essential Role of Alpha Lipoic Acid on the Cardiovascular System in Rabbits Subjected to Methandienone Administration
N-acetylcysteine (NAC)	Nandrolone	18 rats; Control, ND, NAC+ND (6 wk)	Cardiac TUNEL apoptosis; 8-OHdG; TLR4/NF-κB/NLRP3; CK-MB/LDH	ND ↑ apoptosis, DNA damage, TLR4-NF-κB-NLRP3, injury enzymes; NAC reduced all	Glutathione repletion; TLR4-NF-κB-NLRP3 down-modulation	Nandrolone decanoate induces heart injury via oxidative damage and mitochondrial apoptotic pathway by regulation of TLR4/NF-κB/NLRP3 axis in male rats: The rescue effect of N-acetylcysteine

What was your heart scare? Sounds frightening. Also do you take insulin?

 

[oldage]

I know many of us take vitamin D and K. But I also have seen a rise in my blood calcium levels to 11.1 mg/dl. Anyone else noticing this especially with Primo?

 

[Ghoul]

I know many of us take vitamin D and K. But I also have seen a rise in my blood calcium levels to 11.1 mg/dl. Anyone else noticing this especially with Primo?

How much D are you taking?

 

[oldage]

How much D are you taking?

2000iu daily, in a northern climate, not much sun exposure
T 200mg/wk
Primo 100mg/wk
Deca 100mg/wk
HGH 3iu daily

 

[Ghoul]

2000iu daily, in a northern climate, not much sun exposure

Well that doesn’t explain it then. You’re pushing really close to hypercalcemia, which can be a kidney problem, or related to other hormones that influence the kidney.

 

[oldage]

Well that doesn’t explain it then. You’re pushing really close to hypercalcemia, which can be a kidney problem, or related to other hormones that influence the kidney.

Hmmm ok. Bloods look good beside that. Ill go to the doctor asap. Tu.

 

[RockyP]

Hmmm ok. Bloods look good beside that. Ill go to the doctor asap. Tu.

Ask the doc to rule out hyperparathryoidism - this is one of those things that an endocrinologist may not be entirely useless for.

 

[MM84!]

How much D are you taking?

We’re still talking about vitamins…?