Force production translation question for Squat and Deadlift

[franchise24]

@Docd187123 @theprodgicalson @Dr JIM

When football players are tested in the vertical jump and even the 40 yard dash/sprint and long jump. Foot positioning is pretty narrow. Of course the bigger boys are a bit wider relative to their size it is still narrow.

Why is it that max force output with these movements is with a narrower foot placement? Compared to the squat where we see the the guys squatting 1000+ lbs with a wide foot placement. Other creating a shorter distance with Sumo and wide stance squats.

Do we generate more force output with a narrower stance? Or is this just sport specific or based on the individual?

I would think the vertical jump mimics the squat and deadlift to some extent.

 

[JC456]

Just my opinion on the matter.

It could be argued that 1000+ wide and high ABOMINATIONS OF THE SPORT require less force than the relatively medium stance of a Dr Squat or Kawowski.

 

[franchise24]

Just my opinion on the matter.

If could be argued that 1000+ wide and high ABOMINATIONS OF THE SPORT require less force than the relatively medium stance of a Dr Squat or Kawowski.

With that being said do you think that these 1000+ squatters could hit the same weight with a narrower stance that would possibly allow them to generate more force out of the hole?

 

[Maj1979]

It seems to me that wide stance more steady force while narrow creates more range of movements. So when a basketball plays goes for a lay-up there's two stances they usually take. A running jump or a narrow foot spring. I know I'm my experience when I alternate stances with leg-press and squats I move more weight with wide but I generate more range with narrow foot positions. I think it's more of a speed issues and not so much force. The extra range can create more speed with force. I'm no expert but the combination of the two is what gives the high jump. So the leap would better reflect over all athleticism. Every time I jump it's more of a lung (running jump) or narrow foot leg press (leap). I've read somewhere that both type of lifts or movements create the needed balance. It's easier to spring when the spring is straight under object and it's easier to lift when stance is wide. Long story short. I don't know.

 

[JC456]

With that being said do you think that these 1000+ squatters could hit the same weight with a narrower stance that would possibly allow them to generate more force out of the hole?

My personal opinions on these 1000lbs "squatters" are probably a little too colourful to share

You also have to remember the majority of these super wide squatters wear double and triple of gear. So no, I unequivocally believe that none of these wide heavily geared squatters could do the same with a narrow stance and single ply.

Why? Because they would have.

What a shame it is to look back on your career as a lifter, and to never have competed in a legitimate federation, against the best, without using super strong lifting gear to get the most out of your dubious refereeing decision.

If it was me I'd be embarrassed.

 

[franchise24]

Long story short. I don't know.[/QUOTE]
Lol. I see your analysis though.

My personal opinions on these 1000lbs "squatters" are probably a little too colourful to share

You also have to remember the majority of these super wide squatters wear double and triple of gear. So no, I unequivocally believe that none of these wide heavily geared squatters could do the same with a narrow stance and single ply.

Why? Because they would have.

What a shame it is to look back on your career as a lifter, and to never have competed in a legitimate federation, against the best, without using super strong lifting gear to get the most out of your dubious refereeing decision.

If it was me I'd be embarrassed.

You do have at least two lifters that squat without gear. Eric Lilliebirdge has gone over 1000 with belt and wraps and belt and sleeves. And Ray Williams has done over 1000lbs with belt and sleeves. Williams competes in the IPF.

 

[franchise24]

 

[JC456]

Absolutely and I have nothing but respect for these two, and anyone who even approaches these numbers with legitimacy.

But that's the key word, legitimacy.

To further clarify, I don't suffer from this odd romanticism of 'the good old days'. My interest lies with deep squats, done with none or minimal (upto single ply) gear, done with strict judging to correct standards. Anything else I consider a step backwards.

 

[franchise24]

Here is Ray Williams Pulling I believe 865. With A stiff as bar. No deadlift bar. I know he's like 400 lbs bit that is still a lot of weight.

 

[Ironlord]

Some of these guys when they squat wide are only moving the bar 10 inches. If they went narrow they'd have to move it twice the distance so no, they couldn't do the same weight.

And anatomically speaking you can't jump vertically from a wide stance, (try it). The body is not in a position positive for doing that, which is why the football tests are narrow/shoulder width.

 

[franchise24]

Absolutely and I have nothing but respect for these two, and anyone who even approaches these numbers with legitimacy.

But that's the key word, legitimacy.

Very True.

 

[franchise24]

Some of these guys when they squat wide are only moving the bar 10 inches. If they went narrow they'd have to move it twice the distance so no, they couldn't do the same weight.

And anatomically speaking you can't jump vertically from a wide stance, (try it). The body is not in a position positive for doing that, which is why the football tests are narrow/shoulder width.

I agree you just can't generate force for a vertical jump from a wide stance.

There are some Oly lifters that have squatted some big numbers.

 

[Ironlord]

There are some Oly lifters that have squatted some big numbers.

Agreed. Generally power is moving the heaviest weight possible through the shortest range of motion (arched benching to the low abs). Change or increase the distance of bar movement and most of these numbers won't be seen out of the same guys.

And Oly lifters train specifically in those ranges and stances. Have them change to a wide stance clean, snatch or squat and same thing-numbers will drop

 

[franchise24]

Agreed. Generally power is moving the heaviest weight possible through the shortest range of motion (arched benching to the low abs). Change or increase the distance of bar movement and most of these numbers won't be seen out of the same guys.

And Oly lifters train specifically in those ranges and stances. Have them change to a wide stance clean, snatch or squat and same thing-numbers will drop

Those Chinese Oly lifter are something else.

 

[Maj1979]

Agreed. Generally power is moving the heaviest weight possible through the shortest range of motion (arched benching to the low abs). Change or increase the distance of bar movement and most of these numbers won't be seen out of the same guys.

And Oly lifters train specifically in those ranges and stances. Have them change to a wide stance clean, snatch or squat and same thing-numbers will drop

Agreed. Athletes train for sport specific goals.

 

[Maj1979]

Good tread BTW. I'm not concerned with my numbers so much as I go for overall composition so heavy lifts and range are mixed in mine routines. I don't use straps or belts to insure I don't compromise any body parts or lift outta my range but I do enjoy watching the specialist (power lifters and body comp athletes). This goes back to a previous post made about grips on bench press as well. That was a great read as well

 

[Docd187123]

I think you're confusing force, work, and power.

Force is mass X acceleration.

Work is a function of force over a distance

Power is a function of work over a period of time.

 

[franchise24]

I think you're confusing force, work, and power.

Force is mass X acceleration.

Work is a function of force over a distance

Power is a function of work over a period of time.

Ok so help me unfuck my confusion.

A football player performing a long jump lands at the 13-14 foot mark. Which is pretty remarkable. Or hitting a 48-51 inch vertical.

Those movement patterns are similar to the conventional deadlift. Loading of the glutes and hamstrings to jump straight up or forward. Now this is all hypothetical.

Do you think an athlete that can jump high or perform a long jump that covers 14 feet, with proper coaching be able to have elite numbers in the deadlift?

I know there are a lot of factors that come into play. But just theoretical answer would be good enough.

I love watching people movenent patterns and body language.

My daughter is 4 ever since she started walking I would pay attention to how she squatted. Squatting is a natural movement pattern for us.

From the age of 2-3.5 she had a narrow stance squat. She 4 will be 5 in December and now her squat is wider and looks much more stable and strong.

 

[Docd187123]

Ok so help me unfuck my confusion.

A football player performing a long jump lands at the 13-14 foot mark. Which is pretty remarkable. Or hitting a 48-51 inch vertical.

Those movement patterns are similar to the conventional deadlift. Loading of the glutes and hamstrings to jump straight up or forward. Now this is all hypothetical.

Do you think an athlete that can jump high or perform a long jump that covers 14 feet, with proper coaching be able to have elite numbers in the deadlift?

I know there are a lot of factors that come into play. But just theoretical answer would be good enough.

I love watching people movenent patterns and body language.

My daughter is 4 ever since she started walking I would pay attention to how she squatted. Squatting is a natural movement pattern for us.

From the age of 2-3.5 she had a narrow stance squat. She 4 will be 5 in December and now her squat is wider and looks much more stable and strong.

Yes and no to your question. Elite numbers aren't impossible to achieve. Many people never get there simply bc they don't train hard enough or smart enough to get there. So yes I do think people with a great vertical can achieve elite deadlift totals with the proper work but it's not so muh bc they're a great jumper. Remember, a vertical jump is a test for power production which has work and time components. You cannot do a slow vertical jump test. It must be fast. On the other hand, a deadlift is a strength movement that you could take 30seconds to finish and it doesn't matter bc you could do deadlifts slow and fast and as Long as the ROM is full then it's a completed lift

 

[franchise24]

Yes and no to your question. Elite numbers aren't impossible to achieve. Many people never get there simply bc they don't train hard enough or smart enough to get there. So yes I do think people with a great vertical can achieve elite deadlift totals with the proper work but it's not so muh bc they're a great jumper. Remember, a vertical jump is a test for power production which has work and time components. You cannot do a slow vertical jump test. It must be fast. On the other hand, a deadlift is a strength movement that you could take 30seconds to finish and it doesn't matter bc you could do deadlifts slow and fast and as Long as the ROM is full then it's a completed lift

Thank you. I know many other things can come into play. I appreciate you replying.