For the anti-Iraq war folks

[CyniQ]

I don't give a shit what the price of oil is in Iraq. But I do know one thing -- the price of oil in Iraq under U.S. occupation is worth a lot more than the price of human blood.

I'll tell you anyway. Or maybe I won't. I can't find a definite price at the moment. But I've heard estimates between .05 and .21 per gallon within the last several months. I think that's significant. It lets you know a little about the actual costs involved in getting that oil out of the ground. Of course, those numbers are probably heavily subsidized. So, maybe I just countered my own point.

It just cost me $70 to fill up my truck. I spend over $300 per week on gas.

What do you and swing think will happen when the US pulls out of Iraq? Will the insurgency immediately cease? All of the bombers will throw away their duct tape and dynomite and go home?

 

[Bob Smith]

But I've heard estimates between .05 and .21 per gallon within the last several months. I think that's significant. It lets you know a little about the actual costs involved in getting that oil out of the ground. Of course, those numbers are probably heavily subsidized.

I have heard numbers of between 5 and 10 cents per gallon. Gas is HEAVILY subsidized in Iraq, costing the Iraqi govt over $3 billion last year.

 

[Grizzly]

To answer the question about it being worth it or not I say, I'd rather live under opperssion than see half my family die for the so called freedom. What good is freedom if the people who are supposed to live it are dead anyway?

It's that very attitude that allows injustice and tyrrany to exist. You're a new father. If you could guarantee your child a better life by giving yours in a war against your oppressor, would you? Or would you rather keep in place the regime which might provide for her rape or torture?

 

[swing]

What do you and swing think will happen when the US pulls out of Iraq? Will the insurgency immediately cease? All of the bombers will throw away their duct tape and dynomite and go home?

No, the insurgency will definitely remain, and make every attempt to annihilate the US backed government. .

Griz- I understand what you are saying. However, an analysis of political history in the Middle East has revealed on numerous occassions that whenever the US interfers in the region, a worse scenario always arises. A number of governments have been overthrown with the help of the US, and I cannot think of one instance where the outcome was more beneficial than the prior situation. If the Iraqis overthrow one corrupt government, who's to guarantee that a worse tyrant will not assume office (be they American-supported or not)?

 

[CyniQ]

What do you and swing think will happen when the US pulls out of Iraq? Will the insurgency immediately cease? All of the bombers will throw away their duct tape and dynomite and go home?

No, the insurgency will definitely remain, and make every attempt to annihilate the US backed government. .

Griz- I understand what you are saying. However, an analysis of political history in the Middle East has revealed on numerous occassions that whenever the US interfers in the region, a worse scenario always arises. A number of governments have been overthrown with the help of the US, and I cannot think of one instance where the outcome was more beneficial than the prior situation. If the Iraqis overthrow one corrupt government, who's to guarantee that a worse tyrant will not assume office (be they American-supported or not)?

There was this thing in the 40's where Germany was occupying most of Europe...

Pedantic teach thyself.

There are no guarantees in this life, I'll give you that. But what does that have to do with allowing an oppressive regime to stand? Benjamin Franklin said that those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

And the Middle East has revealed on numerous occasions that they can't accomplish a Goddamned thing without killing each other. All you pansy-ass apologist fags want to blame it on the US. But will the killing stop when the US leaves? No. Then they will be fighting against the "US installed gov't". Will they stop killing their own people after that's done? No. There will be some other lame ass excuse. And after that there will be another. Because these people have been killing each other for so long now. They can't even remember why or what for. Blame it on what you will. But the fact is. Those people were in a world of shit before we got there and it will be the same long after we're gone, I expect.

 

[swing]

There was this thing in the 40's where Germany was occupying most of Europe...

Pedantic teach thyself.

And the Middle East has revealed on numerous occasions that they can't accomplish a Goddamned thing without killing each other. All you pansy-ass apologist fags want to blame it on the US. But will the killing stop when the US leaves? No. Then they will be fighting against the "US installed gov't". Will they stop killing their own people after that's done? No. There will be some other lame ass excuse. And after that there will be another. Because these people have been killing each other for so long now. They can't even remember why or what for. Blame it on what you will. But the fact is. Those people were in a world of shit before we got there and it will be the same long after we're gone, I expect.

Talking about blame. Were the Iraqi people killing one another prior to the US invasion? NO! Were there any terrorists in Iraq prior to the US invasion? NO! Was there a civil war prior to the US invasion? NO! Were Iraqi civilians kidnapping anyone prior to the US invasion? NO! Bottomline...had the invasion not occurred none of these events would be occurring. In fact, in the first year of the war alone, more than 10,000 innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by the US bombs, explosions, and bullets. By many estimates, this is more than has been blamed on Saddam within a given year (maybe with the exception of gasing the Kurds). Oh, and who assisted Saddam's ascention to power? Oh, the US!

And provide an example of a Middle Eastern country where the people are fighting one another for a reason they can't even remember.

 

[greyowl]

What would you propose?

That we learn from the mistakes made in Vietnam and other wars so that we don't keep inflicting them upon ourselves.

 

[oldtimer]

It's that very attitude that allows injustice and tyrrany to exist. You're a new father. If you could guarantee your child a better life by giving yours in a war against your oppressor, would you? Or would you rather keep in place the regime which might provide for her rape or torture?

The problem is that eveyrone in the US seems to think that ALL iraqis have been raped and tortured, while it wasn't the case. If I were to choose to live in Iraq under Saddam's regime or live now (I can't comment on the future as I hope it will be brighter), I'd def choose Saddam's time.

The father of a friend of mine who lives here in Saudi with his mother (since she is divorced) told me that his Iraqi father died recently (I posted about this awhile ago I think). A grenade was thrown inside his car while he, and his 12 year old son were inside it. The father immidiatly died and the son spent a day or two IIRC before he died in the hospital of severe burns. His father had some money and his brother was held hostage for ransom, the kindappers took the money then killed the father and son. Saddam was a bad man, yes, but if it were you in my friend's shoes, would you rather live under Saddam or have your father and brother killed like that (and lose a lot of money too)?

 

[Grizzly]

I would rather have led an uprising against Saddam. Personally, I'm just looking for a large enough army to revolt against the gov't of the US and put their asses back in check. But maybe that is just me.

So what if not ALL of the people were raped and tortured. That's a function of geography more than anything, I would guess. The fact remains that under such a regime you must live in the fear of being raped, tortured, robbed or whatever. Fear should not be the ruling emotion of your life.

 

[swing]

So what if not ALL of the people were raped and tortured. That's a function of geography more than anything, I would guess. The fact remains that under such a regime you must live in the fear of being raped, tortured, robbed or whatever. Fear should not be the ruling emotion of your life.

It was for millions of African-Americans and Native Americans. Personally, I don't see much difference between what the Baathist Regime did to its own people, and what the US did to African-Americans and Native-Americans. Biological warfare (infecting blankets with smallpox for the Native Americans, and injecting African-Americans with the syphillis virus), state-sanctioned murder, etc.

 

[CyniQ]

It was for millions of African-Americans and Native Americans. Personally, I don't see much difference between what the Baathist Regime did to its own people, and what the US did to African-Americans and Native-Americans. Biological warfare (infecting blankets with smallpox for the Native Americans, and injecting African-Americans with the syphillis virus), state-sanctioned murder, etc.

What does that mean exactly? Your answer to everything is that the US is evil. Are you subscribing to the Bin Laden Gazette? Where do you come up with this crap? It is possible that you've made some good points in the past. But this is absurd. No one made any attempt to justify what some whites did to people of color in this country. Why do you bring it up? To reinforce your view that America is evil? Your whole "Osama is a peach, Bush is the real terrorist" rhetoric is getting old. There is a happy medium. Neither extreme is of any value. You're quickly beginning to disgust me. As far as I'm concerned, you've lost all credibility with that bullshit above.

And with regard to fighting in the Middle East. I'll admit to being guilty of a little hyperbole. But surely you get my point. You know, that land was promised to Abraham. He gave it to Lot freely, even though he had every right to it, in order to avoid bad feelings between he and his "brother". "Your people" would do well to follow the example of their ancestors.

 

[oldtimer]

It was for millions of African-Americans and Native Americans. Personally, I don't see much difference between what the Baathist Regime did to its own people, and what the US did to African-Americans and Native-Americans. Biological warfare (infecting blankets with smallpox for the Native Americans, and injecting African-Americans with the syphillis virus), state-sanctioned murder, etc.

I don't see how this relates to the topic of the thread to be honest.

 

[oldtimer]

You know, that land was promised to Abraham. He gave it to Lot freely, even though he had every right to it, in order to avoid bad feelings between he and his "brother". "Your people" would do well to follow the example of their ancestors.

I have no idea what you mean by your post. Could you elaborate?

 

[CyniQ]

I have no idea what you mean by your post. Could you elaborate?

I probably wasn't clear. And it certainly doesn't relate to the current situation in Iraq.

I just think it's interesting that alot of the conflict in the middle east is over property that various groups of people think they're entitled to. Abraham, the man who was, in fact, entitled to this property. Gave it freely to avoid strife between him and his neighbor/cousin/brother (depending on how you want to look at it) Lot. If these people, Isrealites, Muslims, Arabs, whoever; would consider the example of their ancestors they may find a peaceable resolution. To that portion of the conflict anyway. I really do believe that violence begets violence and at some point they're shooting at each other just because they've always shot at each other. They don't really remember, or care why. This happens in some marriages. One little fight drags on for years because people eventually forget what they're fighting about, they only remember that they're angry.

 

[goldstone_77]

I always have a problem with polls and like wise fact finding adventurous studies. Ask these question before even thinking about useing source for the basis of an arguement. Who, what, when, where,and how!
Who did the study?
For what purpose was it conducted?
When do they get paid for the study?
Where is the money comming from?
How did they get the money?

Not an attack on your statement. Really a question about your fact finding method?

Question to all:
Now that out of the way, would you like to live there in the past when Saddam was in charge? If so, which ethnicity would you pick and why?

Would you like to live there now?

Would you like to live there in a hypothetical future? What would it be and why?

 

[swing]

What does that mean exactly? Your answer to everything is that the US is evil. Are you subscribing to the Bin Laden Gazette? Where do you come up with this crap? It is possible that you've made some good points in the past. But this is absurd. No one made any attempt to justify what some whites did to people of color in this country. Why do you bring it up? To reinforce your view that America is evil? Your whole "Osama is a peach, Bush is the real terrorist" rhetoric is getting old. There is a happy medium. Neither extreme is of any value. You're quickly beginning to disgust me. As far as I'm concerned, you've lost all credibility with that bullshit above.

And with regard to fighting in the Middle East. I'll admit to being guilty of a little hyperbole. But surely you get my point. You know, that land was promised to Abraham. He gave it to Lot freely, even though he had every right to it, in order to avoid bad feelings between he and his "brother". "Your people" would do well to follow the example of their ancestors.

My point is this...the US is just as guilty of the same wicked crimes as Saddam. Yes or no...did the US perform biological warfare on its own people? Did the US condone the slaughter of its own citizens?

Secondly, gaining or losing of credibility with you is the least of my concerns. I've noticed one of many flaws within your personality.

 

[CyniQ]

My point is this...the US is just as guilty of the same wicked crimes as Saddam. Yes or no...did the US perform biological warfare on its own people? Did the US condone the slaughter of its own citizens?

Secondly, gaining or losing of credibility with you is the least of my concerns. I've noticed one of many flaws within your personality.

LMMFAO! Aren't you the observant little bastard!

You've made your agenda known. You've clouded your own mind with fundamentalist propaganda and misdirected hate.

 

[goldstone_77]

You are both hitting from the left and the right! LOL

 

[goldstone_77]

I don't remember getting VX gassed! LOL

My point is this...the US is just as guilty of the same wicked crimes as Saddam. Yes or no...did the US perform biological warfare on its own people? Did the US condone the slaughter of its own citizens?

Secondly, gaining or losing of credibility with you is the least of my concerns. I've noticed one of many flaws within your personality.

 

[goldstone_77]

LOL, I had a girlfriend from WV, related the mccoys. LOL, all that killing over a stolen pig! In this case all that fighting over some land and a religion.....

I probably wasn't clear. And it certainly doesn't relate to the current situation in Iraq.

I just think it's interesting that alot of the conflict in the middle east is over property that various groups of people think they're entitled to. Abraham, the man who was, in fact, entitled to this property. Gave it freely to avoid strife between him and his neighbor/cousin/brother (depending on how you want to look at it) Lot. If these people, Isrealites, Muslims, Arabs, whoever; would consider the example of their ancestors they may find a peaceable resolution. To that portion of the conflict anyway. I really do believe that violence begets violence and at some point they're shooting at each other just because they've always shot at each other. They don't really remember, or care why. This happens in some marriages. One little fight drags on for years because people eventually forget what they're fighting about, they only remember that they're angry.