For the anti-Iraq war folks

[Weatherlite]

First off, I agree that there is very little to do with anti-terrorism when it comes to the war in Iraq. I do feel it was warranted regardless. Freedom is a precious gift and we gave it to the Iraqis....it's a bunch of asses who want to take it away.

Anyway, here's a cool little article which shows a small segment of that freedom....a segment which the media hasn't shown for some "strange" reason.

http://www.policeone.com/topic_internal.asp?view=116923&cat=articles&vid=118232

 

[swing]

Too bad there were more than 100,000 Iraqis protesting the US, and US installed government officials today. Oh, and there were even thousands holding up pictures of Saddam.

 

[Weatherlite]

Question is, would they be able to protest before we intervened? They'd be shot dead on the spot or used as experiments.

And the INSTALLED government? I do believe there were elections in January. We didn't decide, the Iraqis did under the watch of other nations to make sure that they weren't rigged.

Just because you don't like the war doesn't mean you should ignore facts.

 

[Neodavid]

errr

I don't know what to think, except $3 for gas is too much.

Question is, would they be able to protest before we intervened? They'd be shot dead on the spot or used as experiments.

And the INSTALLED government? I do believe there were elections in January. We didn't decide, the Iraqis did under the watch of other nations to make sure that they weren't rigged.

Just because you don't like the war doesn't mean you should ignore facts.

 

[swing]

As I heard many Iraqis say, "we did not vote these people into office. They were selected by the US." Unfortunately, the US media did not report the complaints from Iraqi citizens: Most are on food rations. And the pre-requisite for having it renewed during the elections were they HAD to vote.

The first announcement was that turnout was at 72 percent. This was later revised to 60 percent, although most simply said "turnout was higher than the expected 57 percent." Today, the number has been revised down to 57 percent since new estimates show about 8 million of Iraq's 14 million eligible voters participated. So, for now, it would appear the predictions were spot on.

Still, there is something missing in these figures. The 14 million eligible voter number fails to include the 1.2 million eligible Iraqi voters living abroad, of which about 260,000 participated (which is roughly 21%).

So, if we calculate turnout of all eligible Iraqi voters, including those living abroad:

8.26 million of 15.2 eligible voters = 54% turnout.

Concerning the right to protest: What good is protesting when you can't feed your family, don't have clean drinking water, no electricity, no gas to look for employment, and security has gone to hell because the people who invaded your country failed to comply with the UN Charter stating "the occupying country has full responsibility for the security of the occupied land." It is truly a shame when you have so many Iraqis now saying, "atleast with Saddam we had food, jobs, security, and electricity."

I'm happy to see the Iraq War is going so well!

 

[greyowl]

Just because you don't like the war doesn't mean you should ignore facts.

And just because you like the war doesn't mean you should delude yourself into believing that it's a mission of mercy, or that it has brought the U.S. anything but misery and an unsustainable fiscal deficit.

 

[CyniQ]

And just because you like the war doesn't mean you should delude yourself into believing that it's a mission of mercy, or that it has brought the U.S. anything but misery and an unsustainable fiscal deficit.

Do you know what the average price of gas is in Iraq?

 

[CyniQ]

As I heard many Iraqis say, "we did not vote these people into office. They were selected by the US." Unfortunately, the US media did not report the complaints from Iraqi citizens: Most are on food rations. And the pre-requisite for having it renewed during the elections were they HAD to vote.

The first announcement was that turnout was at 72 percent. This was later revised to 60 percent, although most simply said "turnout was higher than the expected 57 percent." Today, the number has been revised down to 57 percent since new estimates show about 8 million of Iraq's 14 million eligible voters participated. So, for now, it would appear the predictions were spot on.

Still, there is something missing in these figures. The 14 million eligible voter number fails to include the 1.2 million eligible Iraqi voters living abroad, of which about 260,000 participated (which is roughly 21%).

So, if we calculate turnout of all eligible Iraqi voters, including those living abroad:

8.26 million of 15.2 eligible voters = 54% turnout.

Concerning the right to protest: What good is protesting when you can't feed your family, don't have clean drinking water, no electricity, no gas to look for employment, and security has gone to hell because the people who invaded your country failed to comply with the UN Charter stating "the occupying country has full responsibility for the security of the occupied land." It is truly a shame when you have so many Iraqis now saying, "atleast with Saddam we had food, jobs, security, and electricity."

I'm happy to see the Iraq War is going so well!

Not to be rude. But. What's your point?

What do you propose the US do?

 

[swing]

I debated with a few of my colleagues in other departments regarding the "justification," as well as the inevitable outcome of this war. The bottomline...this is a war that based upon lies, that continued with lies, and is the cause of tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi lives, and almost 2000 American lives. It doesn't matter if the US withdraws today (which they won't do, they've constructed 6 permanent bases in Iraq), or fully withdraw in 4 years, the result will be the same...total chaos! Only fools believed any good would come from this. It baffles me how someone could not realize the outcome of this. If I (as well as my Arab friends) were aware the insurgency would occur, why didn't the so-called "Middle Eastern experts" advising Lil Georgie realize this? Or maybe they did, and he wouldn't listen.

 

[Weatherlite]

And just because you like the war doesn't mean you should delude yourself into believing that it's a mission of mercy, or that it has brought the U.S. anything but misery and an unsustainable fiscal deficit.

Don't like the war, just think it was the right thing to do to take Saddam out of power. I think we fucked it up good with our half-measures and not enough force to actually protect the people.

I've lost two friends over there and had several injured (we're all on the bomb squad) so I have more reason than just "my gas costs too much" to bitch.

Concerning the right to protest: What good is protesting when you can't feed your family, don't have clean drinking water, no electricity, no gas to look for employment, and security has gone to hell because the people who invaded your country failed to comply with the UN Charter stating "the occupying country has full responsibility for the security of the occupied land." It is truly a shame when you have so many Iraqis now saying, "atleast with Saddam we had food, jobs, security, and electricity."

In the short term you are correct. It's better NOW to feed my family and have to live oppressed. Eventually you realize that you need to stand up and do something even if it means suffering for a while. I honestly feel that in the future most Iraqis will look back and feel some anguish over what has happened but will say that in the end it was worth it and was the right thing.

As for the UN charter...FUCK THE UN!!! I do feel the charter is the right way to go and that we failed miserably there. I'm just saying fuck the UN cause they're a bunch of worthless SOB's anyway.

I think I know what some of the responses or comments may be so I'll say this beforehand......Once Saddam died who would replace him? Most likely one of his sons or crazy top generals. They would be worse than him! It would perpetuate for a LOOOOONG time and the Iraqis would suffer for it.

Oh yeah, I know of many Kuwaiti and TCN's living in Kuwait in 90/91 who said that they accepted the invasion of Kuwait with open arms and banners thanking Saddam. In the very next breath they told me why. Because they saw what happened to those who even talked badly about the invasion. One man, an electronics dealer in Kuwait City, watched as the tanks and trucks rolled down the streets. His son walked out and asked what was going on. One of the tank commanders said that they were now all citizens of Iraq. The son said no, we're living in Kuwait. The tanker shot him and the repeated louder 'you're all now citizens of Iraq!'. Everyone within earshot cheered. I would too if it was a choice of being shot or cheering. You save the resistance for the opportune moment.

One final thing...I know this is all past history but it shows the trend of the regime and predicts (probably quite accurately) the future of the regime. I met the highest ranking Kuwaiti enlisted member in 2000. Over several weeks we discussed many things. One day he brought us down to a building on the Kuwaiti side of Ali Al Salem Air Base. This was a building I had seen many times. It was old, full of bullet holes and had a wall that was streaked with something dark. Turns out that they kept this building intact as a monument to remind them of the invasion. You see, the Iraqis were considered friends to the Kuwaitis. A convoy of tanks showed up literally at the gates of the base and said they were they for wargames. They convoy was let in. The base leadership was quickly rounded up at this building and a large portion of the rest of the base population was assembled to watch. Sgt Majeb (the guy who was showing me the building) was there. He saw the ranking Iraqi line up the 12 Kuwaiti officers against the building. He formed a firing squad. He brought out some sort of bucket. He opened the bucket and instructed each executioner to dip their bullet into the contents before loading it in their gun. As they were doing this he announced to the audience that the contents was pig lard. I was unaware of the implications of this so I asked (I knew eating pork was forbidden but that was it). Sgt Majeb explained that by shooting them with a lard covered bullet they would be denied a place in their heaven. Essentially they were being damned for eternity because killing them wasn't enough. Why do this? Just to teach a lesson so that others would have no ideas about fighting back. That's a fucking horrible thing to do if you ask me.

Ok, so that was a bit off topic but it supports my point that people like that needed to be taken out of power. Are we suffering for it? Yes, but I'll gladly suffer knowing that we did the right thing.

 

[greyowl]

Do you know what the average price of gas is in Iraq?

I don't give a shit what the price of oil is in Iraq. But I do know one thing -- the price of oil in Iraq under U.S. occupation is worth a lot more than the price of human blood.

 

[oldtimer]

Weatherlite, what does the gulf war have to do with this war?
You bring some stories about the gulf war although we all agreed with it.

Iraqis were promised a much better life when Saddam is out, and my question to you is, do they actually have a better life now?

It's been over two years now, and I don't see light at the end of the tunnel.

To answer the question about it being worth it or not I say, I'd rather live under opperssion than see half my family die for the so called freedom. What good is freedom if the people who are supposed to live it are dead anyway?

I agree however that it was a good cause, but the US government screwed up IMO. Read the history of Iraq, you will get a very good idea of why this is happening now.

IMO, we're past the stage where we try to justify this war, what's done is done and we have to live with it, the question is, how can we rectify things and give Iraqis hope once again?. This... is a very tough question...

 

[Bob Smith]

IMO, we're past the stage where we try to justify this war, what's done is done and we have to live with it, the question is, how can we rectify things and give Iraqis hope once again?. This... is a very tough question...

Thats the key. We are there, whats done is done, and we cant pull out without causing even more problems, so what do we do?

Looking back, its easy to say "well, we should have used more troops, or we should have done this or that." Unfortunately none of us have that crystal ball to be able to predict and manage situations perfectly. Does the US send 20 or 50 or 100k more troops now to stop the insurgents, or do they stick with current levels? Why does it seem like the Iraqi army isnt taking over? Are we not training them in a manner for them to be able to take over?

I want our troops back home, but leaving now would be disastrous.

 

[oldtimer]

I want our troops back home, but leaving now would be disastrous.

AgreedX2. If the US troops pull out now it would lead to civil war no doubt about it.

 

[swing]

Can a civil war be prevented? I don't believe so. The insurgency's strength is gaining momentum every month, and it appears they possess an unlimited amount of recruits. If the resistance is capable of withstanding the assaults from the mighty US military, while exacting significant casualities, then in their eyes they are becoming victorious. And longer the war continues to drag, the insurgency becomes more confident.

 

[greyowl]

AgreedX2. If the US troops pull out now it would lead to civil war no doubt about it.

There already is a civil war.

 

[greyowl]

Thats the key. We are there, whats done is done, and we cant pull out without causing even more problems, so what do we do?

Looking back, its easy to say "well, we should have used more troops, or we should have done this or that." Unfortunately none of us have that crystal ball to be able to predict and manage situations perfectly. Does the US send 20 or 50 or 100k more troops now to stop the insurgents, or do they stick with current levels? Why does it seem like the Iraqi army isnt taking over? Are we not training them in a manner for them to be able to take over?

I want our troops back home, but leaving now would be disastrous.

Bobbo, you're going to think I'm am assehole for saying this (well, I am an assehole, but that's a topic for another thread) but I was closely following the war in Vietnam at a time when you had other pressing matters that absorbed your attention, such as which of your mother's breast to nurse at. And I can tell you that your reasoning sounds identical to the arguments that decision-makers used to stay the course in Vietnam long after the outcome was settled, at the cost of more blood.

Leaving aside for the moment whether the U.S. should stay the course in Iraq, there's another important issue that people aren't talking about. The people at the top exercised very bad judgement in the way they went into that godforsaken shithole, and after. There's also considerable evidence that that they deliberately obfsucated the facts in the way they presented their case to the American people. Thousands of innocent people have died as a direct result of the way these decisions fucked up, yet these leaders are dan cing as hard as they can to avoid being held accountable for the outcomes that happened because of their actions, and on their watch -- and they're succeeding.

 

[swing]

There already is a civil war.

Your observation is most correct...they ARE in a civil war.

 

[Bob Smith]

Bobbo, you're going to think I'm am assehole for saying this (well, I am an assehole, but that's a topic for another thread)

Point conceeded.

but I was closely following the war in Vietnam at a time when you had other pressing matters that absorbed your attention, such as which of your mother's breast to nurse at.

You overestimate my age. I wasnt even a glimmer in my mothers eye when Vietnam was going on. IIRC, I was more along the time of the Russian/Afghan war.

And I can tell you that your reasoning sounds identical to the arguments that decision-makers used to stay the course in Vietnam long after the outcome was settled, at the cost of more blood.

What would you propose?

 

[Weatherlite]

Wow...we all agree that the US fucked up the war by doing too little, too late and by half-assing it. AND, we all agree that pulling out now would be a bigger travesty than beginning the war. How the hell did that happen???

Here's a question then....if we would have stayed out of Iraq then what do you think would have happened over there? Would the people eventually have revolted or formed a military coup? Maybe just leave it as was and accept oppression?

As for me bringing up the Gulf War example I was only trying to show that even Saddam's troops were capable of horrbile things and that this was kept through the years even after Desert Storm. It would have continued for as long as they were in power. It had to stop sometime and I'm glad we're the ones who are trying to do the right thing.