Combining Reta (sub-4mg) with EC(no A) - Potential to Increase Energy Expenditure at Microdose Levels

[sterlingschrute]

Reta Use and Related Glucagon Agonism

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2301972

7 weeks into Reta, I haven't seen any verifiable RHR increase (tracking daily), but I'm also just getting to 4mg now. From my understanding (due diligence and thanks to posts and discussion by @Ghoul), the glucagon agonism really starts to make itself known at the 4mg point, and quickly upticks as 6mg, 8mg, and higher doses are reached.

I am going to make blanket, overly generalized statements here, but hear me out.
GLP users largely fall into two camps -- 1) those that are using the GLP as the sole compound in their "research", and 2) those that are using GLP as a supplement / "side piece" to other compounds in their peptide/AAS cycle.

- Group 1 is probably more likely to hit the higher 4,6,8, etc. doses as this is the sole compound fueling their weight loss journey. Accordingly, this group would realize more of the glucagon agonism benefits that Reta can yield.
- Group 2, on the other hand, is probably less likely to hit the higher doses (at least on a lean bulk, those on a hard cut may hit the 4+mg levels). Accordingly, this group would largely (not completely) miss out on the glucagon agonism.

Group 2 often takes the strategy of microdosing Reta, staying below 2-3mg. The logic is to stay on the minimum effective dose possible to avoid sides or the ability to eat while on an AAS cycle, since your growth is largely dependent on how much food you can shovel down.


EC(A). Huh?

Ephedrine, caffeine and aspirin: safety and efficacy for treatment of human obesity - PubMed

The safety and efficacy of a mixture of ephedrine (75-150mg), caffeine (150mg) and aspirin (330mg), in divided premeal doses, were investigated in 24 obese humans (mean BMI 37.0) in a randomized double blind placebo-controlled trial. Energy intake was not restricted. Overall weight loss over 8...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Use of a Prescribed Ephedrine/Caffeine Combination and the Risk of Serious Cardiovascular Events: A Registry-based Case-Crossover Study - PMC

Ephedrine and herbal ephedra preparations have been shown to induce a small-to-moderate weight loss. Owing to reports on serious cardiovascular events, they were banned from the US market in 2004. There have been no large controlled studies on the ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

ECA stacks have been popular for at least 30 years for the potential (documented success) to promote thermogenesis without getting into the real, harsher compounds (clen, dnp, etc.). Ephedrine is a stimulant that may increase metabolism, suppress appetite, and promote fat burning (thermogenesis). Caffeine is meant to amplify the effects of ephedrine, potentially increasing energy expenditure and alertness. Aspirin is often seen as optional (protect yo gut playa), but is thought to potentially enhance the delivery of ephedrine and caffeine and help maintain the stimulant effects.


How do we get Group 2 to realize more of the glucagon agonist properties of "high-dose Reta" (4+mg) while staying at micro dose levels (sub-4mg)? My Hypothesis.

If Group 2 utilizes micro-dose levels of Reta (sub-4mg) but adds ephedrine (sulfate, OTC Bronkaid Max) and caffeine into the picture, they may be able to replicate the metabolism/fat burning effects that Group 1 experiences on higher doses (4+mg) of Reta alone.

Any thoughts? Do you think the two "stacks" would synergize, or overload the cardiovascular system and lead to adverse events? Has anyone tried this combo, that would be willing to share their anecdotal experience?

 

[Ghoul]

Mirabegron, Activates cAMP like glucagon in Reta does, but in brown fat vs Reta in the liver.

Reta glucagon cAMP activation causes the liver to make and dump glucose into the bloodstream.

Mirabegron cAMP activation causes brown adipose tissue to take up glucose from the bloodstream and burn it to generate heat, Combined with Reta it'll quickly burn off any extra glucose which will stimulate more glucose production by the liver, amplifying a weak glucagon effect into a stronger one,

Some studies have shown 100mg Mirabegron / day *doubles* resting metabolic rate in humans .

But be aware this can ramp up RHR and puts a load on the heart.

Mirabegron is an overactive bladder drug, it's recommended when used off label for fat burning to titrate slowly starting at 25mg for a week, then 50, 75, and 100.

Obviously do your own homework and don't blame me if your dick falls off or gut bursts into flames, lol.

 

[sterlingschrute]

Mirabegron, Activates cAMP like glucagon in Reta does, but in brown fat vs Reta in the liver.

Reta glucagon cAMP activation causes the liver to make and dump glucose into the bloodstream.

Mirabegron cAMP activation causes brown adipose tissue to take up glucose from the bloodstream and burn it to generate heat, Combined with Reta it'll quickly burn off any extra glucose which will stimulate more glucose production by the liver, amplifying a weak glucagon effect into a stronger one,

Some studies have shown 100mg Mirabegron / day *doubles* resting metabolic rate in humans .

But be aware this can ramp up RHR and puts a load on the heart.

Mirabegron is an overactive bladder drug, it's recommended when used off label for fat burning to titrate slowly starting at 25mg for a week, then 50, 75, and 100.

Obviously do your own homework and don't blame me if your dick falls off or gut bursts into flames, lol.

I would prefer my dick to stay attached and my gut to stay...uh...not on fire? lol

Just anecdotal thus far, but 3 straight days of 50mg ephedrine sulfate (in addition to reta dose) led to average RHR increase of 5-15 bpm points. No other changes/variables, regular days/schedules/activities. Obviously will keep testing and tracking in a log to see if that sustains.

However, adding ephedrine, a second compound with diuretic properties, turned me into a straight pipe piss machine. For that reason, I would say maybe this isn't a great combo

 

[eryximachus]

Wow people are still using ephedrine?

 

[sterlingschrute]

Wow people are still using ephedrine?

"In all studies, no significant changes in heart rate, blood pressure, blood glucose, insulin, and cholesterol levels, and no differences in the frequency of side effects were found. ECA in these doses is thus well tolerated in otherwise healthy obese subjects, and supports modest, sustained weight loss even without prescribed caloric restriction, and may be more effective in conjunction with restriction of energy intake."

If it ain't broke, why fix it? Yes, there are (arguably) better, more modern options, but for the peewee league of weight loss kickstarters / fat burn encouragers, EC(A) will stand the test of time as a low risk/low side stack with proven and quantifiable efficacy.

 

[bananafeet]

If you want more fat burning effects you could just choose a GLP1-RA with more GCCR activity. Like mazdutide....

Unless you're really wanting to get the full effects of LVH when you combine stimulants and AAS.

 

[SnowyMiami]

Mirabegron, Activates cAMP like glucagon in Reta does, but in brown fat vs Reta in the liver.

Reta glucagon cAMP activation causes the liver to make and dump glucose into the bloodstream.

Mirabegron cAMP activation causes brown adipose tissue to take up glucose from the bloodstream and burn it to generate heat, Combined with Reta it'll quickly burn off any extra glucose which will stimulate more glucose production by the liver, amplifying a weak glucagon effect into a stronger one,

Some studies have shown 100mg Mirabegron / day *doubles* resting metabolic rate in humans .

But be aware this can ramp up RHR and puts a load on the heart.

Mirabegron is an overactive bladder drug, it's recommended when used off label for fat burning to titrate slowly starting at 25mg for a week, then 50, 75, and 100.

Obviously do your own homework and don't blame me if your dick falls off or gut bursts into flames, lol.

I couldn't piss on Mirabegron.

 

[SnowyMiami]

Reta Use and Related Glucagon Agonism

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2301972

7 weeks into Reta, I haven't seen any verifiable RHR increase (tracking daily), but I'm also just getting to 4mg now. From my understanding (due diligence and thanks to posts and discussion by @Ghoul), the glucagon agonism really starts to make itself known at the 4mg point, and quickly upticks as 6mg, 8mg, and higher doses are reached.

I am going to make blanket, overly generalized statements here, but hear me out.
GLP users largely fall into two camps -- 1) those that are using the GLP as the sole compound in their "research", and 2) those that are using GLP as a supplement / "side piece" to other compounds in their peptide/AAS cycle.

- Group 1 is probably more likely to hit the higher 4,6,8, etc. doses as this is the sole compound fueling their weight loss journey. Accordingly, this group would realize more of the glucagon agonism benefits that Reta can yield.
- Group 2, on the other hand, is probably less likely to hit the higher doses (at least on a lean bulk, those on a hard cut may hit the 4+mg levels). Accordingly, this group would largely (not completely) miss out on the glucagon agonism.

Group 2 often takes the strategy of microdosing Reta, staying below 2-3mg. The logic is to stay on the minimum effective dose possible to avoid sides or the ability to eat while on an AAS cycle, since your growth is largely dependent on how much food you can shovel down.


EC(A). Huh?

Ephedrine, caffeine and aspirin: safety and efficacy for treatment of human obesity - PubMed

The safety and efficacy of a mixture of ephedrine (75-150mg), caffeine (150mg) and aspirin (330mg), in divided premeal doses, were investigated in 24 obese humans (mean BMI 37.0) in a randomized double blind placebo-controlled trial. Energy intake was not restricted. Overall weight loss over 8...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Use of a Prescribed Ephedrine/Caffeine Combination and the Risk of Serious Cardiovascular Events: A Registry-based Case-Crossover Study - PMC

Ephedrine and herbal ephedra preparations have been shown to induce a small-to-moderate weight loss. Owing to reports on serious cardiovascular events, they were banned from the US market in 2004. There have been no large controlled studies on the ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

ECA stacks have been popular for at least 30 years for the potential (documented success) to promote thermogenesis without getting into the real, harsher compounds (clen, dnp, etc.). Ephedrine is a stimulant that may increase metabolism, suppress appetite, and promote fat burning (thermogenesis). Caffeine is meant to amplify the effects of ephedrine, potentially increasing energy expenditure and alertness. Aspirin is often seen as optional (protect yo gut playa), but is thought to potentially enhance the delivery of ephedrine and caffeine and help maintain the stimulant effects.


How do we get Group 2 to realize more of the glucagon agonist properties of "high-dose Reta" (4+mg) while staying at micro dose levels (sub-4mg)? My Hypothesis.

If Group 2 utilizes micro-dose levels of Reta (sub-4mg) but adds ephedrine (sulfate, OTC Bronkaid Max) and caffeine into the picture, they may be able to replicate the metabolism/fat burning effects that Group 1 experiences on higher doses (4+mg) of Reta alone.

Any thoughts? Do you think the two "stacks" would synergize, or overload the cardiovascular system and lead to adverse events? Has anyone tried this combo, that would be willing to share their anecdotal experience?

Sounds like the retarded obsession with micro-dosing everything in bodybuilding and why most people get nowhere. The spike is where the magic happens.

 

[Corduroy]

Sounds like the retarded obsession with micro-dosing everything in bodybuilding and why most people get nowhere. The spike is where the magic happens.

That's odd because plenty of people have gotten excellent results and less side effects (myself included) from spreading out the dose into multiple injections per week. The "spike is where the magic happens" hypothesis is just that -- a hypothesis with no evidence to back it up, since we don't have comparative studies with once weekly vs multi-weekly dosing schedules (and likely never will).

 

[sterlingschrute]

Sounds like the retarded obsession with micro-dosing everything in bodybuilding and why most people get nowhere. The spike is where the magic happens.

There is nothing retarded about using minimum effective dose to reap an optimal amount of benefits without inducing avoidable side effects at the higher clinical doses. It's like the economic principle of marginal benefits.

If you are getting the desired effects of the drug without hitting the higher end of clinical doses, then why would you take more just to take more? Take just enough to get the outcome you want, especially if you are using Reta alongside multiple other compounds. Nobody wants sides, unless you are masochistic, in which case, I'm not kink shaming you.

That's odd because plenty of people have gotten excellent results and less side effects (myself included) from spreading out the dose into multiple injections per week. The "spike is where the magic happens" hypothesis is just that -- a hypothesis with no evidence to back it up, since we don't have comparative studies with once weekly vs multi-weekly dosing schedules (and likely never will).

Agreed, although I think Snowy was more attacking total weekly dose rather than dose per shot / dose splitting. There is absolutely nothing wrong with splitting dose to minimize sides and level off the ebbs and flows. Fuck a spike if it means having rebound hunger/whatever towards the end of the 5-day mark. I had that experience on Sema, where I did E6d splits. By day 5, the hunger was roaring back. With Reta, E3d splits, I'm staying "in the pocket", so to speak.

 

[adrenalytic]

the glucagon agonism really starts to make itself known at the 4mg point, and quickly upticks as 6mg, 8mg, and higher doses are reached.

This is very interesting to me. I was not aware there was a threshold. I had assumed (stupidly, I guess) that it was an On/Off thing. I will be doing more research on this for sure. Thanks.

1) those that are using the GLP as the sole compound in their "research", and 2) those that are using GLP as a supplement / "side piece" to other compounds in their peptide/AAS cycle.

I have been in both camps. I originally used reta to drop a shit ton of weight in a short time. This was before I was on gear and basically me popping my injection cherry and thus beginning my biohacking journey. I could never handle more than 4 mg due to the inability to eat. I always stayed around 2-3 mg every week. Then after I lost all the weight, I discontinued use for a little while so I could get back some of the muscle I lost.

A few months later I hopped on gear and started microdosing (0.5-1 mg every M/W/F). It worked well. I could still bulk but I was losing fat.

Fast forward to now I'm in a cut and back on 2 mg but I'm doing it every 6 days so I don't have that 1 day of rebound. Just bumped to 2.5 last injection and thinking of moving to 3 (next shot is due Thurs).

TL;DR I fucking love reta. It changed my life. This new information has me excited to titrate up and see what it can really do.

Has anyone tried this combo, that would be willing to share their anecdotal experience?

I use EC (no A) almost daily. With and without reta. I never noticed any difference but I'm kind of numb to stims at this point. I should really take a re-sensitization break but I just love coffee too much.

What would you be expecting one to feel or notice when stacking these things?

 

[adrenalytic]

Mirabegron, Activates cAMP like glucagon in Reta does, but in brown fat vs Reta in the liver.

Reta glucagon cAMP activation causes the liver to make and dump glucose into the bloodstream.

Mirabegron cAMP activation causes brown adipose tissue to take up glucose from the bloodstream and burn it to generate heat, Combined with Reta it'll quickly burn off any extra glucose which will stimulate more glucose production by the liver, amplifying a weak glucagon effect into a stronger one,

Some studies have shown 100mg Mirabegron / day *doubles* resting metabolic rate in humans .

But be aware this can ramp up RHR and puts a load on the heart.

Mirabegron is an overactive bladder drug, it's recommended when used off label for fat burning to titrate slowly starting at 25mg for a week, then 50, 75, and 100.

Obviously do your own homework and don't blame me if your dick falls off or gut bursts into flames, lol.

Mirabegron is the new clen. Safer and pretty damn effective. I'mma try and get a script when I see my doc at the end of the month.

 

[Ghoul]

Mirabegron is the new clen. Safer and pretty damn effective. I'mma try and get a script when I see my doc at the end of the month.

Just remember what I said...

 

[SnowyMiami]

There is nothing retarded about using minimum effective dose to reap an optimal amount of benefits without inducing avoidable side effects at the higher clinical doses. It's like the economic principle of marginal benefits.

If you are getting the desired effects of the drug without hitting the higher end of clinical doses, then why would you take more just to take more? Take just enough to get the outcome you want, especially if you are using Reta alongside multiple other compounds. Nobody wants sides, unless you are masochistic, in which case, I'm not kink shaming you.


Agreed, although I think Snowy was more attacking total weekly dose rather than dose per shot / dose splitting. There is absolutely nothing wrong with splitting dose to minimize sides and level off the ebbs and flows. Fuck a spike if it means having rebound hunger/whatever towards the end of the 5-day mark. I had that experience on Sema, where I did E6d splits. By day 5, the hunger was roaring back. With Reta, E3d splits, I'm staying "in the pocket", so to speak.

If you wan't the much hyped glucagon agonism stuff you likely need a spike. Otherwise Reta is just another hunger control drug.

 

[adrenalytic]

If you wan't the much hyped glucagon agonism stuff you likely need a spike. Otherwise Reta is just another hunger control drug.

Not 100% true. You still get some fat burning and insulin sensitivity enhancement at low doses and even mild GCGR activation (it is a spectrum, not an ON/OFF switch).

The confusion seems to be stemming from the fact that Eli Lilly stopped using a 2 mg control group because the GCGR effect was not statistically significant over the placebo group.

So yes, statistical significance occurs at 4 mg or higher. But it is still useful for microdosing bodybuilders who are only concerned about insulin sensitivity and minor hunger blunting effects (e.g., reduction in food noise and cravings).

 

[Ghoul]

Not 100% true. You still get some fat burning and insulin sensitivity enhancement at low doses and even mild GCGR activation (it is a spectrum, not an ON/OFF switch).

The confusion seems to be stemming from the fact that Eli Lilly stopped using a 2 mg control group because the GCGR effect was not statistically significant over the placebo group.

So yes, statistical significance occurs at 4 mg or higher. But it is still useful for microdosing bodybuilders who are only concerned about insulin sensitivity and minor hunger blunting effects.

The main benefit of low dose Reta, for bodybuilders, seems to be the much stronger GIP agonism in Reta suppresses nausea and other GLP sides while preserving its mental appetite suppression and insulin sensitivity boosting effects.

It takes a lot of Glucagon agonism to have any meaningful boost in base metabolism rate.

 

[chrysler]

Careful with Mirabegron side-effects, it can mess with your electrolytes and hydration pretty badly.

 

[ChemBB]

Mirabegron, Activates cAMP like glucagon in Reta does, but in brown fat vs Reta in the liver.

Some studies have shown 100mg Mirabegron / day *doubles* resting metabolic rate in humans .

Mirabegron is an overactive bladder drug, it's recommended when used off label for fat burning to titrate slowly starting at 25mg for a week, then 50, 75, and 100.

So, I have a 30 x 100mg bottle of Mirabegron.
I tried it once at 100mg pre-workout and felt on the verge of a panic attack the entire time.

I'm anxiety-prone and already RX'ed 300mg Moda + 150mg Buproprion XR.

Currently running:
- 300 Test/250 Tren/250 Mast
- 6iu GH pre-bed
- 3mg Reta E3D

Do you reckon that there would be any benefit to using 50mg?
The studies I read pointed to 100-200mg as the minimum for lipolysis/RMR increase (see image, take with grain of salt because LLM)

I'm split between doing 25mg Ephedrine + 200mg Caffeine or giving Mirabegron another go. At least with EC, I don't have panic attacks.

 

[chrysler]

So, I have a 30 x 100mg bottle of Mirabegron.
I tried it once at 100mg pre-workout and felt on the verge of a panic attack the entire time.

I'm anxiety-prone and already RX'ed 300mg Moda + 150mg Buproprion XR.

Currently running:
- 300 Test/250 Tren/250 Mast
- 6iu GH pre-bed
- 3mg Reta E3D

Do you reckon that there would be any benefit to using 50mg?
The studies I read pointed to 100-200mg as the minimum for lipolysis/RMR increase (see image, take with grain of salt because LLM)

I'm split between doing 25mg Ephedrine + 200mg Caffeine or giving Mirabegron another go. At least with EC, I don't have panic attacks.

It is just not worth it, tried it once and dropped it. Even Albuterol has less side effects for me and more efficacy.

 

[SnowyMiami]

Careful with Mirabegron side-effects, it can mess with your electrolytes and hydration pretty badly.

I got prescribed Mirabegron for BPH and I could not piss on it. It was like the nerves that make you piss were deactivated. I had to sit on the toilet for an hour before anything came out.