Could Hillary run on an Independent Ticket??

Illegals do not pay taxes because they do not get paid with checks..they get paid with cash....what planet have you been on ?
As far as goverment programs working..The IRS works pretty darn well .....yeah right !

Illegals often get paid cash, but just as often they DO get checks. Many businesses do not check on people's background to make sure they are legit, now that they have "cracked down" there are busts concerning this. And there is a good number of illegals that pay social security, yet they don't actually have a legit number to collect.

So they may or may not pay taxes is (it depends on the individual) but they CAN NOT collect from these programs.

And some government programs do not work because conservatives who have an interest in them not working (so they can say they did not work and hoard more for themselves at a cost to hardworking citizens) intentionally F' them up. The New Deal worked great and was a major factor in bringing us out of the depression and helping fix the economic system so we could become victorious in WW2 (which also was a help to the economy but the build up it spurred would not have been possible without the New Deal-which is one of the greatest pieces of legislation ever). I grew up in a state that had plenty of social programs, Massachusetts, and let me tell you things were alot better there than the state I live in now. I am fortunate that I don't need any social programs so it doesn't effect me personally. But I've seen people, PEOPLE WHO WORK 50 HOURS A WEEK, who can barely afford their food, shelter, and clothing and CAN'T GET THE MEDICINE THEY NEED.

Like I said, I've never worked a job for more than 5 months (for some extra spending money) and I have good food, good shelter, nice clothes, full health insurance (and not some HMO), am being educated above the high school level, have a car, have supplements, can buy AAS, can sleep until 11, etc. Did I do anything to deserve it? No, my parents worked to make my family well to do (not rich in the sense of having anything we want but we don't worry). But I will do my part by siding with the worker, campaigning for his rights, etc.

And as far as how efficient government programs are, it matters less than you think; why? When it comes to serving the people corporations are 100% inefficient, they do not exist to serve but only to make profits. And in places where it has been worked for gov. programs cost less even if they are less efficient because they do not need huge profits or to pay multi-million dollar salaries (and golden parachutes so that even when they run a company into the ground they get 100s of millions of dollars) for CEOs. I grew up around well to do people and have literally heard them say they couldn't care less what happens to those in the economic classes below them; which is why we must fight for the rights of the middle class and the poor.
 
And I think talking about putting flag pins on etc. is ridiculous.... If someone was truly unpatriotic and they wanted to do our country wrong they would have no problem essentially lying by wearing a flag pin, flying the flag, etc. It doesn't mean s*** to fly the flag because its not a sacrifice, its not hard, and if you truly didn't value it you would have no problem putting it on even if you didn't believe in what it stands for. So in a way if you are upset with how our government is functioning and you don't fly it that may actually be the patriotic thing to do. I think supporting your government regardless is unpatriotic, questioning authority and criticizing it when you believe it is wrong was supposed to be one of the fundamental differences of this country when it was formed. We became a independent state BECAUSE WE QUESTIONED AUTHORITY, and I believe a non-violent revolution to restore our country may be in order... we strayed from our ideals by throwing away constitutional rights (by taking away the right to a fair trial, the right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure, etc.).
 
Nick have you got to debate with Grizzly yet?:D
He has been in a pissed off mood ever since Cyniq left and is always looking for a good debate.


As far as Illegal Immigration goes...If they started fining the companies that hire illegals then IMO you would see a lot less Illegals being hired for cheap labor.

Voting this election is like playing Russian Roulette, I dont want McCain to win because that would be 4 more years of the same bullshit we had the past 8 years w/ Bush. Its unclear what Obama does stand for and how he could clean up the mess Bush made. Either way I dont think the whole blow back of Bush's 77 trillion $ debt has hit the fan yet and who ever wins the election will look like a loser in the end.

As far as Obama having Hussein as a middle name I dont have a problem with it. What if you found out Jesus Christ had the middle name of Hussein? Would you change your religion?
 
Nick have you got to debate with Grizzly yet?:D
He has been in a pissed off mood ever since Cyniq left and is always looking for a good debate.


As far as Illegal Immigration goes...If they started fining the companies that hire illegals then IMO you would see a lot less Illegals being hired for cheap labor.

Voting this election is like playing Russian Roulette, I dont want McCain to win because that would be 4 more years of the same bullshit we had the past 8 years w/ Bush. Its unclear what Obama does stand for and how he could clean up the mess Bush made. Either way I dont think the whole blow back of Bush's 77 trillion $ debt has hit the fan yet and who ever wins the election will look like a loser in the end.

As far as Obama having Hussein as a middle name I dont have a problem with it. What if you found out Jesus Christ had the middle name of Hussein? Would you change your religion?
No, I would not change my religion...Jesus was very clear on his agendas and never flipped flopped.
 
I just think its funny both Bush and McCain accuse their opponents of flip flopping when they both changed completely, Bush after being elected president and McCain around 2004-06 to appeal to the conservative base.
 
I just think its funny both Bush and McCain accuse their opponents of flip flopping when they both changed completely, Bush after being elected president and McCain around 2004-06 to appeal to the conservative base.
Fact be known..McCain does not apeal to most real conservatives....
 
Fact be known..McCain does not apeal to most real conservatives....

He still is not their first choice.... but had he kept his position on the Bush tax cuts, etc. he would be much less liked.... the old McCain was liked by the more traditional (as in not the religous right, and neo-cons in power now) conservatives (the Barry Goldwater types, or Libertarians)
 
Congress Military

Barrack Husien Obama 143 days 0

John McCain 26 years 22 years


Currently democrats leave for vacation while Republicans try and help fix the energy crisis....
Go figure.
 
Direct quote from Obama taken from "Audacity of Hope"........"I will stand with the muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction."
Another quote from 'Dreams of my father "....."I found a solace in nursing a pervasive sense of grievance and animosity against my mothers race ">
 
Congress Military

Barrack Husien Obama 143 days 0

John McCain 26 years 22 years


Currently democrats leave for vacation while Republicans try and help fix the energy crisis....
Go figure.

I just don't even know what to say any more. I believe you spelled Barack middle and first name wrong. Also if you are going to display Barrack's full name then you should do the same with John's as well. That way you would obviously show your bias.

I believe Barack Served 8 years in the Illinois Senate. I believe he had a failed bid in 2000 for the House of Representatives and announced his running for US senate in 2003.

I don't know what mentioning John McCain millitary record is supposed to accomplish. I mean most of the candidates this election cycle both on the repuplican and democratic side did not serve in the millitary neither did the Dick Cheney and Bush was an Air National Guard I believe.

But what really got me is how you claimed that democrats went on vacation. As if the republicans didn't also. Also you want to give credit to the republicans that are largely responsible for this energy mess?

So you want to give credit to George G.W. Bush who actually signed into law banning offshore drilling. You want to congratulate Jeb Bush, who for years opposed and fought offshore drilling off the coast of Florida while he was governor.

Also you want to give credit to a congress that up until 2006 was controlled by republicans and also have a republican president and yet oil went from $28 a barrel in November of 2008 when Bush was elected to record highs of $147 this year.

Oh lets not forget about the energy crisis of 2001, the failure of Enron, no bid rewards to Haliburton that Cheney was once a CEO of and the fact that many of our foreign polices are influenced by Oil Executives. Yeah Dems are the only ones to blame.

Libertarians are the answer.
 
Additionally: I have to research if those quotes are actually as you state they are from his books. I am not saying those comments weren't made but many things you have posted have been incorrect.

Also our high energy costs has risen do to the devaluation of our dollar. Our dollar is devalued because we have a huge debt approaching $10 trillion dollars and we incur 1.85billion dollars in debt every day. That isn't a misquote. That isn't something I made up. This is something you all can research yourselves. Everything I am posting you can research and search yourselves.

So not only do we have a national debt due to inappropriate budgeting since Thomas Jefferson administration but we also continue to print money we don't have. This devalues the dollar further. Since crude is trading in US dollars that makes the cost higher.

This isn't a just a Dems fault or a Republican fault. This is both of their faults. Again this is why we need a strong third party candidates elected in various offices across the country who favor strong fiscal responsibilities as well as non imperial foreign policies.

But I want to touch on something involving Obama. Now many people wish to try and paint him as a muslim. Being a muslim is the new bad thing. It is no different then it was to be a communist back in the day. So people who paint him as a "closet" muslim try to suggest that if he is elected our country is doomed.

These comments make me laugh and no wonder many people think this country is full of idiots. Lets say for argument sake that he is. Who truly believes that he can just make policies that will aid and assist enemies of the US?

Isreal has friends on both sides of the aisle. That means both republicans and Democrats. You even have many that are jewish that hold elected offices are powerful people. Why am I mentioning this?

Well do you think (again for argument sake lets say Obama is a muslim) that Obama can just change policies that have been in place for more then 30 years now involving Islamic states? Anything that the public and those that fear Ismalic states feel is being compromised will be up in arms. That includes people in Obama own cabinet(if he is elected) and people in his own party.

He would in effect be a first term lame duck president. Nothing would get done.
But I don't suspect people have an issue with his "alleged" muslim background. I believe people have more of an issue with his race then his "alleged" religion or politics.

Why do I say this? Well there are politicians that have a more cozy relationship with Islamic states and no one even questions their patriotism or allege they are a threat to our National Security.

Our current president and many of his cabinet members have had 20+ year relationship with countries like Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait and many others.

If you don't believe me look up Bush and the Carlise Group. Look at how many of our "outstanding Security Bonds" are owned by people of muslim backgrounds. Look up how much money a dubai group just gave Citi Bank and JP Morgan this year just so they wouldn't be hit hard by the Mortgage crisis.

Did anyone forget that the Bush administration was strongly considering allowing a Dubai investment group to by 6 of our major ports just a few years ago? Think about what possible threat our country could have faced if ports in New Orleans, Boston, New York City, Virginia and others were owned and control by a foreign group?

Think about how much of this country is actually owned by foreigners. Don't believe me? Did you know that your "Department of Homeland Security" publically admitted that as much as 80% of US tolls and bridges in some states?
Idaho Observer: Foreigners buying up U.S. roads and bridges
Selling Off Our Economic Future: The Inescapable Consequence of Americas Payments Deficit
DHS Admits 80% US tolls & Bridges foreign owned

I can go on and on but I know that doing so will be futile. People have been having a wool pulled over their eyes for years and they believe and want to believe whatever is thrown in front of them. They will believe what ever is told to them.

Hopefully people will realize that for the foreseeable future it doesn't matter if Obama, or McCain, or Romey or Clinton or whomever else is elected in '08, '12 and beyond that until real change occurs(election of third party candidates across this country) our futures and children futures are in jeopardy.

Libertarians are the answer.
 
I have said it once and will say it again..I am not a huge Mccain fan either..I would be very interested in hearing more about third party ideals/views etc...I would never vote democrat..EVER...they go against every thing I stand for as a christian.
Obama does not favor offshore drilling,he will apoint judges who will not interpret the law but change it,did not serve in our military,has 173 days experience in senate,will institute a socialized national health care plan(which will fail miserably),supports abortion throughout the pregnancy,would surrender the iraq war,does not support gun owners rights,supports homosexual marriage,his programs will increase our taxes,voted against making english our official language,voted to give social security to illegals,he wants to impose a 28 % tax on gains from all home sales,he wants to increase dividend tax to 39.6 %,he wants to almost double income tax,he wants to restore the inheritance tax,he has worn a freaking rag on his head and robes..frankly that scares the shit out of me.
 
I can go on and on but I know that doing so will be futile. People have been having a wool pulled over their eyes for years and they believe and want to believe whatever is thrown in front of them. They will believe what ever is told to them.

Pretty much the case.

Nice well thought out points.
 
Bridger and Novice, You are both correct....The majority of the American Nation is having the wool pulled over their eyes by a guy with muslim ties.
 
Wow this is getting really hot. So again what does all this have to do with the original topic?

After seeing the DNC I guess we can all say with certainty that Senator Clinton will not be running for Independent ticket.
 
Hmmm...

So someone who is a different religion than you is the enemy or suspect?

Is the American founders principle of religious tolerance not a value you share?
 
Bridger and Novice....you two cannot seriously be considering voting for Barrack can you ? And about my religion(Christian) I am concerned about Obama having ties with many terrorist organizations,his muslim roots,his reverand,ties to marxism/socialism etc..yes,this worries me.The definition of an enemy for me is anyone who we are at war with.........
 
Dennis couldn't be more correct! Away from the amazing but orchestrated speeches, Obama has nothing to offer the American people. Unless you count legalized murder, infanticide, and gay marriage! Religion is not the issue. When we as a country define abortion as a "woman's right", we are just opening the door to more erosion of morality and decency. Gay marriage is the same. Everything immorale and dirty is now just an "expression" of one's self. This is a farse and the very people involved know that it is wrong.
 
Things Obama has to offer us:
-shifting the tax burden from the middle class to the large corporations and upper class.

-Finally providing more affordable health care by:
1. covering everyone. Right now emergency rooms serve as the health care system for the poor and even some of the middle class, this is extremely expensive and we all end up paying for it. Also, it hurts the ability to get care in a real emergency.
2. Not allowing insurance companies to cherry-pick and throw sick people off to get sub-par care which is at the expense of taxpayers (McCain wants to have the people he believes in taxing (the middle class, he supports tax-cuts for the wealthy, but not the amount of middle class tax cuts Obama supports) pay for the care of the chronically ill, and let insurance companies have the healthy).
3. He believes in allowing negotiation of drug prices and importation of drugs from Canada. McCain voted with Bush to ban drug price negotiations to help the pharma industry and hurt the consumer.

- Protecting a woman's right to choose. Bush, and Palin (who has spoken about sex ed) do not even support sex ed. McCain is anti-choice (I won't say pro-life, he is for the war and the death penalty- the Catholic Church is pro-life because they are consistent). Abortions have actually risen in the last 8 years because of Bush's piss poor "abstinence only" education.

-Protecting the teaching of actual science, the republican ticket does not defend the right to protect our children from misinformation. If you believe in Creationism thats fine, but its religion not science. 90% of our population is now scientifically illerate, over half fails at being able to use proper independent logical thought as a result.

- He is not linked to the oil industry and the Saudi royal family (George W. Bush actually recieved start up money from the Bin Ladens). McCain supports tax cuts for the oil industry while they make record profits and we pay huge prices at the pump; then he uses offshore drilling as a distraction (I'm not 100% against it but it is a minor detail, it will only bring a 1.6% increase (according to Bush's staffed Federal Energy Commission, they also said it will have no real impact on prices) in our oil, wind on the other hand could provide 20-40% of our energy needs, geothermal, solar, and tidal would also provide substantial energy, as could natural gas).

-Less corruption, while Gustav hit the gulf coast the republicans were out partying with lobbyists (who provide the bulk of their campaign money, Obama on the other hand got his money grassroots from small donations by the middle class and even the poor); Palin is being investigated as a preliminary step to a possible impeachment/indictment as a result of her firing an official who would not fire her ex-brother -in-law for (possibly) her revenge; in several recent races the republicans have tried to fix elections (Bush lost in 2000, in 2004 there were areas with electronic tallying where he got more votes than there were voters, they jammed phones at democratic head quarters (there are a few republicans in prison for this now)).

- Our troops have actually donated far more money to Obama at this point than McCain.

- McCain wants to create MANDATORY FEDERAL TESTING OF ATHLETES FOR AAS TO REALLY CRACK DOWN!!!!! why? to distract people from real issues.

Obama is not a muslim, although I would not care if he was. McCain voted with Bush 90% of the time and caters to a the extreme right (who are social conservatives who want to take away your rights (AND INCREASE DRUG WAR PENALTIES INCLUDING AAS)) and economic royalists.

I actually am now an intern and have recently had some of my political writings published by some large newspapers. When you really get into these issues it is amazing how misinformed people are. Just think of it this way, How much do most people know about AAS? That is just one issue on which people have been mislead (in this case to strengthen the drug war which is another tool of oppression), it is done all the time so that a small group of the economic elite can stay in power- and the Republican party just about perfectly caters to these people. It is a simple fact that unless you are in the top 1% (MAYBE the top 2or 3%) for income, or are willing to give up your rights to stop a couple social issues that bother you, YOU ARE VOTING AGAINST YOUR OWN INTERESTS! It is the RNC's priority to entirely protect Corporations and the rich and powerful. Bush has actually allowed corporations TO WRITE BILLS! AND MCCAIN SIGNED OFF ON THEM!!!!
 

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