Butter, Beef, and a Bit of Chaos

[DrGlove]

Greetings Meso-rx Family.

I am a 46 year old male, (1.76m tall) and I am proudly 3+ years Carnivore, with 2 solid years of good old internet-keto prior.

I was very active in the gym and PED world in my early 20's but eventually strayed and completely stopped everything for a number of years.

Fast forward to 2018 and I found myself at 110KG and barely able to tie my own shoelaces without sitting on a step. LOL.

In comes emergency actions, back to gym, low carb diet boom. Back to 80KG in no time, at this point I was also introduced to cycling so lifting took a back seat while I persued 100's of km's in the sadle weekly in my never ending persuet of getting over the next hill faster than my peers. Naturally over time that happened and soon that was no longer interesting.

At the same time I also managed to cut down to 65KG which was great, except I lacked serious muscle and could only fill out a size XS t-shirt ( EU size ).

I upgraded my home equipment a little and started doing more lifting than riding at home and then eventually about a month or so ago I decided it was time to get back on the proverbial horse ( instead of serving it for dinner ) and see how I can push myself to new limits, except ofcourse this time I would be doing it without carbs.

So here I am, I have opened a log because naturally many believe this is not possible, personally I think it is entirely possible as I have my log book and I can see that I am growing muscle - all be it slower than I would like.

So to be entirely clear, I eat entirely animal based:
That means primarily eggs because they contain all the amino acids required to grow life, I eat about 20 a day.
I eat a fair amount of actual butter, usually 100-200grams a day depending on my goals at the time, for bulking I increase to 200 and when I am trying to lean out a bit I cut back to 100. Its also great for hormone support.
I love a steak, always have, if I could eat steak all day I would, however its expensive, so I keep my steak for dinner, usually a nice rib eye or a rump or sirloin is ok, half a KG or so is a decent portion for me, I deep fry it in beef tallow, its absolute perfection, crispy on the outside and barely cooked on the inside
At breakfast I also have some beef liver, I thought it would be gross as all hell, but I tried it, fried in butter and eating it with my eggs its actually not bad. It full of essential nutrients and numerous vitamins and minerals thus making it my daily essential mineral addition to my diet.
Grated cheese in most parts of the world is mixed with all sorts of fillers and things, like tabioca starch or some random fiber of the day, so I found a clean one which I like to add to my fried eggs for breakfast and lunch, again depending on my goals at the time I may increase or decrease that.
For lunch I may or may not add some bacon, again depending on my goals at the time, in a bulking phase I will have an extra 100grams of bacon on my lunch serving of eggs, when trying to lean out a bit I would leave that out.

Fasting: I don't do it, I think it destroys muscle, when I was working my way back from 110 to 80KG I did week long water fasts and it absolutely sucked, I could not sleep, I would lose multiple KG's in a week only to go into a feeding frenzy when I did eat and eat it all back and not in a good way. I do however train fasted daily.

Current workout program:
Lifting:
I aim to hit 20 sets per muscle group weekly in 3 full body type workouts where I focus on a major muscle group as a starter which I alternate depending on the day. My recovery is good and I am able to push through so far, I am however finding I am running out of time on these workouts so I may split that up a bit.

Cycling:
I since upgraded to an electric MTB which I primarily use on Sundays, because its tons of fun to get out there with friends for a good old social gathering in the mountains, to keep my condition up for these rides I use my rest days for a hour or so of low intensity cycling on a home trainer or outside depending on the weather.

Why am I here?

Its a funny story, I guess, I heard it was easy to find these things online, and turns out it was, a few clicks and I had everything in house and ready to roll, but then I started to doubt if what I managed to find was even real, perhaps it was all a scam, all the reviews, the fast stealth delivery, the instant responses, perhaps it was all a charade, so I researched my brand, and managed to land here and in the process I could validate what I bought was in fact real, I could even find the tests matching my batch numbers, so turns out it was all good to go.

I am writing this introduction as I know many people here do not believe my diet choice is a good one, I am not here to try to convince anyone. I will however keep a log and people can celebrate my successes with me or laugh at my failures. Life is a journey and I am here to enjoy the ride

PS: Pinning and cycling is a real pain in the ass

 

[negpill]

Nice intro. We all have different paths in how we ended up here. Like you brother, I'm not here to talk diet, but do feel I can possibly help some with even just passing curiosity. This lifestyle is a lot more nuanced than "just eat meat", but i get the broader sentiment here about not being optimal for BB and other physique pursuits. I can take the ribbing from the skeptics, all day, no problem. It is what I signed up for.

 

[Jin23]

Greetings Meso-rx Family.

I am a 46 year old male, (1.76m tall) and I am proudly 3+ years Carnivore, with 2 solid years of good old internet-keto prior.

I was very active in the gym and PED world in my early 20's but eventually strayed and completely stopped everything for a number of years.

Fast forward to 2018 and I found myself at 110KG and barely able to tie my own shoelaces without sitting on a step. LOL.

In comes emergency actions, back to gym, low carb diet boom. Back to 80KG in no time, at this point I was also introduced to cycling so lifting took a back seat while I persued 100's of km's in the sadle weekly in my never ending persuet of getting over the next hill faster than my peers. Naturally over time that happened and soon that was no longer interesting.

At the same time I also managed to cut down to 65KG which was great, except I lacked serious muscle and could only fill out a size XS t-shirt ( EU size ).

I upgraded my home equipment a little and started doing more lifting than riding at home and then eventually about a month or so ago I decided it was time to get back on the proverbial horse ( instead of serving it for dinner ) and see how I can push myself to new limits, except ofcourse this time I would be doing it without carbs.

So here I am, I have opened a log because naturally many believe this is not possible, personally I think it is entirely possible as I have my log book and I can see that I am growing muscle - all be it slower than I would like.

So to be entirely clear, I eat entirely animal based:
That means primarily eggs because they contain all the amino acids required to grow life, I eat about 20 a day.
I eat a fair amount of actual butter, usually 100-200grams a day depending on my goals at the time, for bulking I increase to 200 and when I am trying to lean out a bit I cut back to 100. Its also great for hormone support.
I love a steak, always have, if I could eat steak all day I would, however its expensive, so I keep my steak for dinner, usually a nice rib eye or a rump or sirloin is ok, half a KG or so is a decent portion for me, I deep fry it in beef tallow, its absolute perfection, crispy on the outside and barely cooked on the inside
At breakfast I also have some beef liver, I thought it would be gross as all hell, but I tried it, fried in butter and eating it with my eggs its actually not bad. It full of essential nutrients and numerous vitamins and minerals thus making it my daily essential mineral addition to my diet.
Grated cheese in most parts of the world is mixed with all sorts of fillers and things, like tabioca starch or some random fiber of the day, so I found a clean one which I like to add to my fried eggs for breakfast and lunch, again depending on my goals at the time I may increase or decrease that.
For lunch I may or may not add some bacon, again depending on my goals at the time, in a bulking phase I will have an extra 100grams of bacon on my lunch serving of eggs, when trying to lean out a bit I would leave that out.

Fasting: I don't do it, I think it destroys muscle, when I was working my way back from 110 to 80KG I did week long water fasts and it absolutely sucked, I could not sleep, I would lose multiple KG's in a week only to go into a feeding frenzy when I did eat and eat it all back and not in a good way. I do however train fasted daily.

Current workout program:
Lifting:
I aim to hit 20 sets per muscle group weekly in 3 full body type workouts where I focus on a major muscle group as a starter which I alternate depending on the day. My recovery is good and I am able to push through so far, I am however finding I am running out of time on these workouts so I may split that up a bit.

Cycling:
I since upgraded to an electric MTB which I primarily use on Sundays, because its tons of fun to get out there with friends for a good old social gathering in the mountains, to keep my condition up for these rides I use my rest days for a hour or so of low intensity cycling on a home trainer or outside depending on the weather.

Why am I here?

Its a funny story, I guess, I heard it was easy to find these things online, and turns out it was, a few clicks and I had everything in house and ready to roll, but then I started to doubt if what I managed to find was even real, perhaps it was all a scam, all the reviews, the fast stealth delivery, the instant responses, perhaps it was all a charade, so I researched my brand, and managed to land here and in the process I could validate what I bought was in fact real, I could even find the tests matching my batch numbers, so turns out it was all good to go.

I am writing this introduction as I know many people here do not believe my diet choice is a good one, I am not here to try to convince anyone. I will however keep a log and people can celebrate my successes with me or laugh at my failures. Life is a journey and I am here to enjoy the ride

PS: Pinning and cycling is a real pain in the ass

Welcome to Meso.

Congratulations on sticking to such difficult diets for such a long time. Imo both keto and carnivore are more or less unrealistic due to this reason. They however very viable choices for short term mental health issues or just cns recovery

I tried keto and it was wonderful for my brain but it wrecked my ibs gut and immune function so I had to stop and it took me a long time to semi recover.

What benefits (except weight loss) have you perceived from keto and carnivore? And are you measuring your ketone levels now that you are in carnivore?

 

[Bandern]

Who up clogging they arteries ?

 

[DrGlove]

Welcome to Meso.

Congratulations on sticking to such difficult diets for such a long time. Imo both keto and carnivore are more or less unrealistic due to this reason. They however very viable choices for short term mental health issues or just cns recovery

I tried keto and it was wonderful for my brain but it wrecked my ibs gut and immune function so I had to stop and it took me a long time to semi recover.

What benefits (except weight loss) have you perceived from keto and carnivore? And are you measuring your ketone levels now that you are in carnivore?

I don't measure Ketones no, in the absence of carbs ketones are always present.

I don't find it hard at all, even on high carb I had some form of animal based protein in every meal.

Benefits? I don't get sick, ever, in fact the only time I have been to the doctor in the past 3+ years was for blood tests and its not like its not around me, I have a kid in creche and everyone in my house gets whatever she gets - except me ofcourse.

Additional benefits primarily for cycling, while my friends are spending tons of cash on gels and powders for cycling I am happily chugging away at my plain salted water so there is a saving there

I also feel that muscle recovery is much better, I notice that with both lifting and cycling, while on high carb I would be stiff for days where now I battle to actually experience stiffness at all.

Mental clarity is a big thing, memory is also great, I have many frustrations with peers at work who just plain forget things as soon as they where told which can be a bit of a pain.

Additionally, when on carbs I had to eat almost every 2 hours so appetite control is also a great benefit for me, I am more than happy having my 3 square meals daily spaced about 4-5 hours apart. ( Timed ASAP post workout and then 4hrs later etc. )

Sleep is also great in fact for the longest time I stopped dreaming entirely, now I dream again, which can be fun and interesting even if you forget most of it the next morning

I consistently or religiously depending on how you look at it manage to maintain almost 8hrs per night of sleeping, in fact for the past year based on my Garmin App I have maintaned on avg 7hrs 41 minutes so I am very happy with that.

 

[DrGlove]

There are also other small things, like I don't get tooth decay, I go to the dentist for my annual checkup and clean and nohing beyond that. I don't burn in the sun as easily, heck in the past I could barely handle an hour in the sun, I don't use sun lotion at all and I can stay out all day, body odour is also substantially reduced and I work out a lot so there are many smaller benefits as well

 

[negpill]

There are also other small things, like I don't get tooth decay, I go to the dentist for my annual checkup and clean and nohing beyond that. I don't burn in the sun as easily, heck in the past I could barely handle an hour in the sun, I don't use sun lotion at all and I can stay out all day, body odour is also substantially reduced and I work out a lot so there are many smaller benefits as well

I don't use sunscreen or sunglasses. My sight actually improved over the past few years.

 

[BigDadd7]

Keep up the good work

 

[Liter O' Test]

the reason why you dont get sore is because you are unable to fully push your muscles without glycogen or carbs etc

you cant tell me that by NOT having carbs you experience XYZ benefits.

yeah carbs make you burn in the sun and weaken your immune system lol, basically everything you percieve as good or better than your peers, you attribute to not having carbohydrates. this is a huge bias and why you are in a cult. please dont spread this crap on this board.

here we have real health problems and real solutions, we didn't just get fat and generally unwell at middle age and decide to jump into an extreme diet because we saw some youtube videos and we dont know what else to do

 

[BigDadd7]

the reason why you dont get sore is because you are unable to fully push your muscles without glycogen or carbs etc

you cant tell me that by NOT having carbs you experience XYZ benefits.

yeah carbs make you burn in the sun and weaken your immune system lol, basically everything you percieve as good or better than your peers, you attribute to not having carbohydrates. this is a huge bias and why you are in a cult. please dont spread this crap on this board.

here we have real health problems and real solutions, we didn't just get fat and generally unwell at middle age and decide to jump into an extreme diet because we saw some youtube videos and we dont know what else to do

If you follow his other thread, it's clear he's set in his plan. He's had some success and doesn't see the plateau coming. He's not really open to changing his diet, workout, or drug choices. He even thinks he burned 2k+ calories by cycling for a few hours. I wish him luck, but I think the inevitable crash will discourage him and he'll give up.

 

[Bandern]

the reason why you dont get sore is because you are unable to fully push your muscles without glycogen or carbs etc

you cant tell me that by NOT having carbs you experience XYZ benefits.

yeah carbs make you burn in the sun and weaken your immune system lol, basically everything you percieve as good or better than your peers, you attribute to not having carbohydrates. this is a huge bias and why you are in a cult. please dont spread this crap on this board.

here we have real health problems and real solutions, we didn't just get fat and generally unwell at middle age and decide to jump into an extreme diet because we saw some youtube videos and we dont know what else to do

All the OG carnivore influencers I’m aware of have started eating carbs. I’m kinda surprised the carnivore cult is still a thing.

Either way, pounding butter and bacon all day while using AAS is the funniest thing I’ll read all week so I’m not gonna hate.

 

[Banana Joe]

Middle aged pencil pushers, looking the part, living off bacon, butter, cheese and running contest prep style Winnie cycles - how exactly did we end up here?

Literally every single day, like clockwork.

 

[Liter O' Test]

All the OG carnivore influencers I’m aware of have started eating carbs. I’m kinda surprised the carnivore cult is still a thing.

Either way, pounding butter and bacon all day while using AAS is the funniest thing I’ll read all week so I’m not gonna hate.

they always have the same talking points and extremely subjective anecdotes that they assimilated from other carnivore people.

everything they say goes against very basic science.
"we arent meant to use carbs, i perform better on fats!"
we know how the body works, this isn't up for debate

they are basically vegans, thinking humans arent meant to eat an entire food group and that every benefit in their life is a result of not eating that food group while simultaneously being completely delusional about their health and appearance which tends to deteriorate

 

[MrGrant]

they are basically vegans, thinking humans arent meant to eat an entire food group and that every benefit in their life is a result of not eating that food group while simultaneously being completely delusional about their health and appearance which tends to deteriorate

so not going to talk about the OP (but am sorry to clog up your thread) as I only know 1 person on the carnivore diet and he's an idiot, but will add about vegans if I may?

Personally I'm not a vegan because i believe you aren't meant to eat animals but rather you shouldn't and still live. How well you live depends on many things, same as whichever "diet" type you follow. I know many people who believe they eat healthy and they really dont.

I believe that you can have a good healthy vegan diet with careful supplementation (as I believe most diets need, depending on life stage. I'm older so look at supplementing more). I became vegan as I dont want to eat animals, as time went on and the environmental impact of livestock farming (in general) became known I now wouldn't eat meat because of its carbon footprint.
I dont go on about it (used to and am now of course!) as I believe most people are not going to listen but I do agree when people say they eat less meat and/or better choices (i.e. more expensive normally).

Am I healthy? If you looked at me youd say yep, 61, train bjj and climbing (crap at both), but I've had stents and ache like a bastard every morning. I am under no illusion that anything bad thats going to hit me health wise is going to be a large part of my prior diet as I didnt care too much so ate badly (chips, beer and drugs) but I'm sure if I was veggie or omnivore it would have been similar.
So to sum up, yep vegans tend to be full of themselves and push it onto others, same as many people with other aspects of their life. Does being vegan make me better than anyone else?

Fuck yeah, but soo does everything else about me I'm awesome

 

[BigDadd7]

I love vegan food! I serve it up right next to a juicy ribeye!

 

[DrGlove]

so not going to talk about the OP (but am sorry to clog up your thread) as I only know 1 person on the carnivore diet and he's an idiot, but will add about vegans if I may?

Personally I'm not a vegan because i believe you aren't meant to eat animals but rather you shouldn't and still live. How well you live depends on many things, same as whichever "diet" type you follow. I know many people who believe they eat healthy and they really dont.

I believe that you can have a good healthy vegan diet with careful supplementation (as I believe most diets need, depending on life stage. I'm older so look at supplementing more). I became vegan as I dont want to eat animals, as time went on and the environmental impact of livestock farming (in general) became known I now wouldn't eat meat because of its carbon footprint.
I dont go on about it (used to and am now of course!) as I believe most people are not going to listen but I do agree when people say they eat less meat and/or better choices (i.e. more expensive normally).

Am I healthy? If you looked at me youd say yep, 61, train bjj and climbing (crap at both), but I've had stents and ache like a bastard every morning. I am under no illusion that anything bad thats going to hit me health wise is going to be a large part of my prior diet as I didnt care too much so ate badly (chips, beer and drugs) but I'm sure if I was veggie or omnivore it would have been similar.
So to sum up, yep vegans tend to be full of themselves and push it onto others, same as many people with other aspects of their life. Does being vegan make me better than anyone else?

Fuck yeah, but soo does everything else about me I'm awesome

Dare I ask how long you have been vegan?

 

[MrGrant]

Dare I ask how long you have been vegan?

Around 43 years. In theory.

 

[soisoyboi]

Greetings Meso-rx Family.

I am a 46 year old male, (1.76m tall) and I am proudly 3+ years Carnivore, with 2 solid years of good old internet-keto prior.

I was very active in the gym and PED world in my early 20's but eventually strayed and completely stopped everything for a number of years.

Fast forward to 2018 and I found myself at 110KG and barely able to tie my own shoelaces without sitting on a step. LOL.

In comes emergency actions, back to gym, low carb diet boom. Back to 80KG in no time, at this point I was also introduced to cycling so lifting took a back seat while I persued 100's of km's in the sadle weekly in my never ending persuet of getting over the next hill faster than my peers. Naturally over time that happened and soon that was no longer interesting.

At the same time I also managed to cut down to 65KG which was great, except I lacked serious muscle and could only fill out a size XS t-shirt ( EU size ).

I upgraded my home equipment a little and started doing more lifting than riding at home and then eventually about a month or so ago I decided it was time to get back on the proverbial horse ( instead of serving it for dinner ) and see how I can push myself to new limits, except ofcourse this time I would be doing it without carbs.

So here I am, I have opened a log because naturally many believe this is not possible, personally I think it is entirely possible as I have my log book and I can see that I am growing muscle - all be it slower than I would like.

So to be entirely clear, I eat entirely animal based:
That means primarily eggs because they contain all the amino acids required to grow life, I eat about 20 a day.
I eat a fair amount of actual butter, usually 100-200grams a day depending on my goals at the time, for bulking I increase to 200 and when I am trying to lean out a bit I cut back to 100. Its also great for hormone support.
I love a steak, always have, if I could eat steak all day I would, however its expensive, so I keep my steak for dinner, usually a nice rib eye or a rump or sirloin is ok, half a KG or so is a decent portion for me, I deep fry it in beef tallow, its absolute perfection, crispy on the outside and barely cooked on the inside
At breakfast I also have some beef liver, I thought it would be gross as all hell, but I tried it, fried in butter and eating it with my eggs its actually not bad. It full of essential nutrients and numerous vitamins and minerals thus making it my daily essential mineral addition to my diet.
Grated cheese in most parts of the world is mixed with all sorts of fillers and things, like tabioca starch or some random fiber of the day, so I found a clean one which I like to add to my fried eggs for breakfast and lunch, again depending on my goals at the time I may increase or decrease that.
For lunch I may or may not add some bacon, again depending on my goals at the time, in a bulking phase I will have an extra 100grams of bacon on my lunch serving of eggs, when trying to lean out a bit I would leave that out.

Fasting: I don't do it, I think it destroys muscle, when I was working my way back from 110 to 80KG I did week long water fasts and it absolutely sucked, I could not sleep, I would lose multiple KG's in a week only to go into a feeding frenzy when I did eat and eat it all back and not in a good way. I do however train fasted daily.

Current workout program:
Lifting:
I aim to hit 20 sets per muscle group weekly in 3 full body type workouts where I focus on a major muscle group as a starter which I alternate depending on the day. My recovery is good and I am able to push through so far, I am however finding I am running out of time on these workouts so I may split that up a bit.

Cycling:
I since upgraded to an electric MTB which I primarily use on Sundays, because its tons of fun to get out there with friends for a good old social gathering in the mountains, to keep my condition up for these rides I use my rest days for a hour or so of low intensity cycling on a home trainer or outside depending on the weather.

Why am I here?

Its a funny story, I guess, I heard it was easy to find these things online, and turns out it was, a few clicks and I had everything in house and ready to roll, but then I started to doubt if what I managed to find was even real, perhaps it was all a scam, all the reviews, the fast stealth delivery, the instant responses, perhaps it was all a charade, so I researched my brand, and managed to land here and in the process I could validate what I bought was in fact real, I could even find the tests matching my batch numbers, so turns out it was all good to go.

I am writing this introduction as I know many people here do not believe my diet choice is a good one, I am not here to try to convince anyone. I will however keep a log and people can celebrate my successes with me or laugh at my failures. Life is a journey and I am here to enjoy the ride

PS: Pinning and cycling is a real pain in the ass

Nothing proud about being carnivore. Its unesesary and youre falling for meat and dairy industry propaganda to keep yu spending and in the end like our buddy J peterson, you will get sick. His daughter has all kinds of problems with her baby too. Im not celebrating. We're all psyoped, some of us just realize that we dont need or want to take lives or create misery for other creatures for a perceived gain for ourselves. Im the other end of the spectrum, 20 year vegan, 50yr old bloods pretty much perfect, bodybuild for fun and respect the lives of others. Very proud that I havent had to kill anything to live or to get muscles. My wife is 45, vegan 20 years and athlete/ performer from pretty much birth and looks 25. We are retired and are pretty sure that having a strong moral compass allowed us to work well and do no harm in that arena as well and allowed us to see through fads and psyop diets. Married for 23 years and sex 3-4 times a day.

I didnt come to flame, I came seeking info and anecdote on next cycle. Last was TrenA/testE/primo/anavar. Ive been on trt for almost a decade just had a couple of anadrols sublingual to feel what they were about. Im thinking, testE/npp/trenA & anadrol for a few weeks end or beginning. I like Tren, it does the opposite for me of most people, it makes me super lovey but maybe a bit dumber.

I have a special skill as someone who only eats plants and almost all whole foods, I shit you not, i do not smell. I mean my ass smells sometimes when Im eating new weird shit. I havent worn deodorant for most of that 20 years and I dont use soap anywhere but my assdong. I dont smell like a dirty hippy either. All that shit is so nasty fr your health and a psyop to be clean and fitin. I mean I hate beingh stuck around stinky people. Sensitive nose. I shit twice a day and almost dont need to wipe. We eat a boatload of weirder superfood type things like 1-200g natto daily for the last 6 months. Right now we eat big plates of pumpkin/kobocha, spinach, rice, barley, quiona, tofu, seaweed, beans, beets and sprouted things because I can buy them here where someone else did the work.

You get the meat sweats and smell weird like pee livin in ketosis and kill more animals than a large family all by yourself. When did the empathy get beaten out of you? Or the moral lessons more than the typical follower? Ths starts in our psychology. I dont think we can hack the system like this forever.

Hopefully you see through this bs at some point and before your health starts failing. Im maybe as autistic as you in eating the same shit day in and day out. I ate the exact same breakfast for 6 years and didnt eat out in that time period becasue I was so grossed out by the food and food system. I have no food allergies and would eat anything not living, i just find that it is efficient. Right now maybe have a beyond burrito or burger once a week, usually at my wifes request. Dont buy the bs, modern western science is almost all false. Its all heavily conflicted and has some obvious outcomes. Same with seed oils bad. Seed oils arent bad, solvent extracted, trash grown seed oils are bad or garbage junk food is bad. Every person crying about seed oils is repeating nothings, conflating it with "processed foods" which yes garbage quality food that no one should eat, chips and trash cakes and almost everything package, they conflate it with the sugar and other things in there, Ive had some of the worst bad faith debates with people about it. Cold pressed seed oils are wonderful in responsible quanties, not to be confused with lays chips or hexane extracted. So much junk science and then the empty narcissism of the west, makes people turn that into their identity. And no veganism isnt my identity, anymore than entrepeuneur(person who makes business), someohow people have turned fad diets in them to fill the void. My diet is just not taking part in something that makes no sense. Empathy and compassion is who I am but what I eat is not. The cool thing about being as retarded as i am is I dont have a very concrete identity. If I did have one it would be guy with bigdick, who had bigcuck energy and didnt knwo he had a bigdick until it dawned on him after putting a mirror behind the toilet to go measure. Im tall so its far away. Anadrol is pretty cool, I wrecked back/chest/shoulders today but my lovely wifes job is to massage the shit out of me so I can hit it really hard and she knows the muscles well.