Another Todd Lee Thread...

[adrenalytic]

Late to the party but I'm just kinda getting into this guy to evaluate if I like what he's selling or not (unimpressed so far) and he's making some claims about GH that totally go against the grain and what I understand about it.

The biggest thing that's caught my attention is him saying that we're all using GH wrong. That it should be administered IM every time to get the most anabolism out of it. As I understand it, we want SubQ because the slower release means more IGF-1. And IIRC reading one of @Ghoul 's posts saying that IM would give more of the non-anabolic effects (lypolisis, collagen synthesis, etc.) but LESS anabolism. Not to mention, the drug was designed to be given SubQ daily. There's no insert that I know of advising the patient to inject it IM.

Is this not correct?

He also blames his haggard meth looking face on 26 IUs/day of GH (his explanation is that your skin grows on those high doses and gets more wrinkles as a result). Dubious about that but OK.

Here's the video. Yeah, it's 9 months old. Late to the party on this guy. Seems like I'm not missing much. total arrogant douchebag so far but I forgive him for that as that's the space we're in. I can't forgive bad information though. Is it bad information?

Link should take you right to the part I'm talking about.


View: https://youtu.be/aWbeViZV7uA?t=994

 

[RockyP]

you're just scratching the surface of his dickbaggery...

He touts himself as a medical doctor, which it seems he technically is (graduated from a medical school). However, he went to medical school in Barbados (where all of the finest physicians graduate from). I have never seen any documentation or reference to him completing an internship or residency, or having a medical license or NPI number. What does this all mean? Well, if you've ever been to a hospital in July (when the new trainees hit the wards), you know how insanely dangerous doctors who just graduated medical school can be. They learn about clinical medicine through their post-graduate training (internship / residency), which this asshole apparently has never done. So, the "medical doctor" card is being played by someone with the same clinical knowledge as a 4th year medical student on June 30th of a given year.

He also likes to refer to himself as a biochemist. He is not. He apparently has an undergraduate degree in biochemistry, but he does not work in a lab or do any biochemical work. I majored in chemistry in college. I don't go around telling people I'm a chemist.

His delivery would be insufferable even if he was actually right about what he says, but he is more often than not entirely wrong and talking out of his ass. He acts as if he has discovered fire when he talks about E2 and its relationship to the GH to IGF-1 conversion. This is nothing new. He goes on and on about how awful primo is because it crashed HIS estrogen. I know lots of people, myself being one, who did not have that happen, and I can run primo at the same or even a bit higher than my test. But then he pivots and says how great EQ is, which also has AI properties (and stronger than primo in some folks). He perseverates on having adequate E2 for the GH to IGF-1 conversion, but when you sort through all his verbal diarrhea, the end of the day is you want your E2 in the normal range for this conversion, which is where you'd want it anyway.

As far as pinning the GH IM vs subQ - just ask yourself who knows better: Todd or the drug company that invented the fucking drug. No, they are not "afraid" to have patients do IM with a 31G needle. It's not some conspiracy that only Todd the Great has uncovered that the real way to take it is IM and that only retarded plebs take it subQ

Then, there's the Masteron obsession. It seems that he has deified Broderick Chavez for some reason, who also is also a fan of Masteron. To be clear, Masteron is a fine compound if you tolerate it. Some people say it's not anabolic, idk about that. What i do know is guys like running a shitload of it alongside high dosages of test, and I have no idea how they can parse out where the gains are coming from, since they likely didn't run the 1250 test by itself ever (due to E2 issues). Nevertheless, in his ADHD / Spectrum-ish style, he is like a dog with a bone now with Masteron and has once again made an ass of himself. Why? Because he tells people to do the exact opposite of what someone who actually knows what they are doing (John Jewett) recommends, which is run mast along with HIGH (relatively speaking, for you the individual) test dosages. Todd says run your test as high as you can without an AI before you get E2 sides (for most guys this is around 300-400 mg max) and then just start piling on the Masteron. That is absolute nonsense (for massing anyway) and anyone who has tried it will tell you so.

Then there's his bright idea about chugging a gallon of water before your lab draws to make it look like your HCT isn't as high as it is. Also a waste of time and not even effective. We should all hydrate adequately all the time, pounding water in the parking lot is just gonna make you piss yourself. Again, ask people who have tried this. It doesn't work.

I've said this before, and i'll say it again. What Todd has been able to do, at least to date, is find an audience that knows even less than he does and who is impressed by his fake credentials. Most meatheads do not understand what I mentioned in paragraph 1 above. They hear "medical doctor" and think that he is the real deal. He's not. Don't believe me? Retain his services. Ask him for a prescription for something, anything. Ask him to write you for bloodwork. It won't happen. Because it can't happen. He will send you through an affiliate company for labs and HRT if you desire. He will consult but he does not practice medicine in any shape or form. He's managed to hang around but even the guys who have had him on podcasts before have (hat tip to them) respectfully just ignored his ideas (notably the higher the better estrogen idea) when speaking to others about it.

 

[adrenalytic]

you're just scratching the surface of his dickbaggery...

He touts himself as a medical doctor, which it seems he technically is (graduated from a medical school). However, he went to medical school in Barbados (where all of the finest physicians graduate from). I have never seen any documentation or reference to him completing an internship or residency, or having a medical license or NPI number. What does this all mean? Well, if you've ever been to a hospital in July (when the new trainees hit the wards), you know how insanely dangerous doctors who just graduated medical school can be. They learn about clinical medicine through their post-graduate training (internship / residency), which this asshole apparently has never done. So, the "medical doctor" card is being played by someone with the same clinical knowledge as a 4th year medical student on June 30th of a given year.

He also likes to refer to himself as a biochemist. He is not. He apparently has an undergraduate degree in biochemistry, but he does not work in a lab or do any biochemical work. I majored in chemistry in college. I don't go around telling people I'm a chemist.

His delivery would be insufferable even if he was actually right about what he says, but he is more often than not entirely wrong and talking out of his ass. He acts as if he has discovered fire when he talks about E2 and its relationship to the GH to IGF-1 conversion. This is nothing new. He goes on and on about how awful primo is because it crashed HIS estrogen. I know lots of people, myself being one, who did not have that happen, and I can run primo at the same or even a bit higher than my test. But then he pivots and says how great EQ is, which also has AI properties (and stronger than primo in some folks). He perseverates on having adequate E2 for the GH to IGF-1 conversion, but when you sort through all his verbal diarrhea, the end of the day is you want your E2 in the normal range for this conversion, which is where you'd want it anyway.

Then, there's the Masteron obsession. It seems that he has deified Broderick Chavez for some reason, who also is also a fan of Masteron. To be clear, Masteron is a fine compound if you tolerate it. Some people say it's not anabolic, idk about that. What i do know is guys like running a shitload of it alongside high dosages of test, and I have no idea how they can parse out where the gains are coming from, since they likely didn't run the 1250 test by itself ever (due to E2 issues). Nevertheless, in his ADHD / Spectrum-ish style, he is like a dog with a bone now with Masteron and has once again made an ass of himself. Why? Because he tells people to do the exact opposite of what someone who actually knows what they are doing (John Jewett) recommends, which is run mast along with HIGH (relatively speaking, for you the individual) test dosages. Todd says run your test as high as you can without an AI before you get E2 sides (for most guys this is around 300-400 mg max) and then just start piling on the Masteron. That is absolute nonsense (for massing anyway) and anyone who has tried it will tell you so.

Then there's his bright idea about chugging a gallon of water before your lab draws to make it look like your HCT isn't as high as it is. Also a waste of time and not even effective. We should all hydrate adequately all the time, pounding water in the parking lot is just gonna make you piss yourself. Again, ask people who have tried this. It doesn't work.

I've said this before, and i'll say it again. What Todd has been able to do, at least to date, is find an audience that knows even less than he does and who is impressed by his fake credentials. Most meatheads do not understand what I mentioned in paragraph 1 above. They hear "medical doctor" and think that he is the real deal. He's not. Don't believe me? Retain his services. Ask him for a prescription for something, anything. Ask him to write you for bloodwork. It won't happen. Because it can't happen. He will send you through an affiliate company for labs and HRT if you desire. He will consult but he does not practice medicine in any shape or form. He's managed to hang around but even the guys who have had him on podcasts before have (hat tip to them) respectfully just ignored his ideas (notably the higher the better estrogen idea) when speaking to others about it.

Sounds about right from what I've seen so far. He began that video by verbally fellating Vig Steve and Chase Irons. Sounded a bit like the loser at school bragging about hanging with the cool kids meanwhile they laugh at him behind his back.

 

[Ghoul]

It's fairly straightforward.

IM is absorbed much more quickly. The level of GH in blood spikes higher than it does via slower release SubQ. The liver's capacity to convert GH to IGF becomes saturated by supra-physiological levels of GH. This leaves more GH unbound to have direct effects on tissue, like lipolysis and collagen production. It also means GH is cleared more quickly.

Slower release SubQ provides the liver with a lower, steadier level of GH for much longer to convert to IGF, with less excess GH being left unbound, so less direct effect on tissue. but more total IGF production. Liver produced IGF is what provides the "anabolic environment" of rHGH, stimulating protein synthesis and uptake by muscle.

Muscle local IGF production is crucial for hypertrophy, but exogenous GH has surprisingly little impact on it so SubQ or IM makes little difference. Any amount of resistance training stimulates far, far more local IGF production than rHGH.

 

[RockyP]

Sounds about right from what I've seen so far. He began that video by verbally fellating Vig Steve and Chase Irons. Sounded a bit like the loser at school bragging about hanging with the cool kids meanwhile they laugh at him behind his back.

This was also the vibe in the Chavez interview. It was hard to get through. They are both such massive opinionated assholes who don't know what they don't know.

I came across a recent short of his where he said that anyone taking more than 4 IU gh daily should only take 4 iu at night and split the rest throughout the day. No citations to support this, no data whatsoever. Just Toddscience. Again, John Jewett, Jo Palacios, Justin Shier, and on and on and on - all take their shit at night no matter what the dosage.

I wouldn't be so hard on Todd if he wasn't out there doing so much direct damage with his information. The guy is obviously a loser, very likely heavily bullied as a kid and turned to lifting / PED's to boost his self-esteem. He was almost blushing at times when interviewing Chavez. He's self-described as "on the spectrum" which is what he attributes his asshole personality to. But he's out there lying about his credentials and talking out of his ass. He knows FAR less than an experienced coach, and there is a VERY long list of bodybuilding coaches without a medical degree (even one from Barbados) who I would trust to manage my diet, PEDs, and bloodwork before Todd

 

[adrenalytic]

Muscle local IGF production is crucial for hypertrophy, but exogenous GH has surprisingly little impact on it so SubQ or IM makes little difference. Any amount of resistance training stimulates far, far more local IGF production than rHGH.

Does this get tipped in favor of rHGH when doses are high? Say 18IU+? I mean, these guys are mutating from something...

 

[RockyP]

Does this get tipped in favor of rHGH when doses are high? Say 18IU+? I mean, these guys are mutating from something...

I've heard multiple coaches / athletes say that they start to mutate at / above 9 iu daily. Physiques totally transform. With of course a shitload of gear and food, etc. But obviously not everyone gets the same results...

Would also just mention that for a 100kg male, 9 iu is the upper limit beyond which you get cardiac remodeling effects. No bueno..

 

[adrenalytic]

I've heard multiple coaches / athletes say that they start to mutate at / above 9 iu daily. Physiques totally transform. With of course a shitload of gear and food, etc. But obviously not everyone gets the same results...

I've heard similar numbers. I only stated 18 because that's the pharma dose for AIDS patients and children with short stature.

But yea, HGH and slin is how I hear about these guys just straight up going toxic avenger nick walker style.

 

[RockyP]

I've heard similar numbers. I only stated 18 because that's the pharma dose for AIDS patients and children with short stature.

But yea, HGH and slin is how I hear about these guys just straight up going toxic avenger nick walker style.

Yes. Lots of test, GH, slin, and a secondary anabolic that can run up the total mg amount per week and be well tolerated. That's where the EQ, primo, Mast comes in. 1250 test, 1g EQ or primo, 1 g masteron, 10+ iu GH, insulin, etc. Kurt Havens recently ate crow about what he had previously said about some pro's cycles. He basically said that the guys he's consulted with are not taking 3 grams, they're more in the 5 to 6 gram range AND taking lots of orals too. Insane when you think about it.

While just a rumor, it's fairly "common knowledge" that Nick runs something like 200 mg tren daily.

 

[adrenalytic]

Yes. Lots of test, GH, slin, and a secondary anabolic that can run up the total mg amount per week and be well tolerated. That's where the EQ, primo, Mast comes in. 1250 test, 1g EQ or primo, 1 g masteron, 10+ iu GH, insulin, etc. Kurt Havens recently ate crow about what he had previously said about some pro's cycles. He basically said that the guys he's consulted with are not taking 3 grams, they're more in the 5 to 6 gram range AND taking lots of orals too. Insane when you think about it.

While just a rumor, it's fairly "common knowledge" that Nick runs something like 200 mg tren daily.

I believe it. Have you seen him recently? Dude's peeled and enormous. Samson, Derek and Haddi better bring it cuz Nick is loaded.

 

[Ghoul]

Does this get tipped in favor of rHGH when doses are high? Say 18IU+? I mean, these guys are mutating from something...

There's very little research that directly relates to the way rHGH is used by bodybuilders so no one can say for sure.

Those very high doses obviously maximize IGF production. They saturate the body's ability to clear GH extending the half life resulting in even more total IGF production, and excess unbound GH (of which there's going to be a lot), also has an "anabolic readiness" effect like IGF, but weaker, enabling protein synthesis and uptake, so it adds on to what maxed out IGF is doing.

As far as I can tell, all this "anabolic environment" building still won't stimulate spontaneous hypertrophy by causing significant local IGF production in muscle. It seems to have a permissive effect on muscle growth, assuming sufficient nutritients are available, but exercise is still needed to unlock muscle hypertrophy.

I suppose that's what IGF-LR3 does (directly induce growth) but I haven't looked into it very closely. I assume if it was really effective at building muscle there'd be much more interest than there is.

 

[Deadpool99]

There's very little research that directly relates to the way rHGH is used by bodybuilders so no one can say for sure.

Those very high doses obviously maximize IGF production. They saturate the body's ability to clear GH extending the half life resulting in even more total IGF production, and excess unbound GH (of which there's going to be a lot), also has an "anabolic readiness" effect like IGF, but weaker, enabling protein synthesis and uptake, so it adds on to what maxed out IGF is doing.

As far as I can tell, all this "anabolic environment" building still won't stimulate spontaneous hypertrophy by causing significant local IGF production in muscle. It seems to have a permissive effect on muscle growth, assuming sufficient nutritients are available, but exercise is still needed to unlock muscle hypertrophy.

I suppose that's what IGF-LR3 does (directly induce growth) but I haven't looked into it very closely. I assume if it was really effective at building muscle there'd be much more interest than there is.

I have a different question which might be slightly unrelated.

I'm curious what you guys think a good hgh dose is without using insulin. I usually keep my blasts at 8ius to minimize heart growth cuz I've read alot about actual measurable growth within a year of high hgh usage so I keep it at 8ius for 12 weeks then drop back to 4ius for my maintenance.

I always wondered if anyth above 8ius would be worth the risk without utilizing insulin, is there benefits worth the risks to go 10ius+? cuz I just have this urge to blast 10-12ius cuz I don't face any BG/water retention/CTS issues but it seems the risk isn't worth it, atleast from what I have read but ofc alot of guys here are more experienced and knowledgeable than me.

Ofc assuming BG is perfect.

 

[juicebro]

There's something to learn from everyone. He has some interesting takes. Use what works for you discard the rest.

I think he doesn't like primo because it's expensive, apparently less anabolic than mast and eq and usually in 100mg/ml and known for causing PIP.

 

[adrenalytic]

I assume if it was really effective at building muscle there'd be much more interest than there is.

Word on the street is that it's effective but only at high doses which are cost prohibitive for even the most dedicated bodybuilders. Increlex costs upwards of $2,000 a kit.

 

[Ghoul]

I have a different question which might be slightly unrelated.

I'm curious what you guys think a good hgh dose is without using insulin. I usually keep my blasts at 8ius to minimize heart growth cuz I've read alot about actual measurable growth within a year of high hgh usage so I keep it at 8ius for 12 weeks then drop back to 4ius for my maintenance.

I always wondered if anyth above 8ius would be worth the risk without utilizing insulin, is there benefits worth the risks to go 10ius+? cuz I just have this urge to blast 10-12ius cuz I don't face any BG/water retention/CTS issues but it seems the risk isn't worth it, atleast from what I have read but ofc alot of guys here are more experienced and knowledgeable than me.

Ofc assuming BG is perfect.

This is completely unscientific, but it *feels* like the collective wisdom of many individual users, after trial and error, seem to settle on 8iu as the point beyond which it's diminishing returns. I'm sure this varies based on individual factors. but if a study was ever released that concluded 8iu is the max practical dose for most people, I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[adrenalytic]

I have a different question which might be slightly unrelated.

I'm curious what you guys think a good hgh dose is without using insulin. I usually keep my blasts at 8ius to minimize heart growth cuz I've read alot about actual measurable growth within a year of high hgh usage so I keep it at 8ius for 12 weeks then drop back to 4ius for my maintenance.

I always wondered if anyth above 8ius would be worth the risk without utilizing insulin, is there benefits worth the risks to go 10ius+? cuz I just have this urge to blast 10-12ius cuz I don't face any BG/water retention/CTS issues but it seems the risk isn't worth it, atleast from what I have read but ofc alot of guys here are more experienced and knowledgeable than me.

Ofc assuming BG is perfect.

Try it out for a couple weeks and see how you feel. You probably won't add an extra mile to your intestines in that time and I would think you'd notice if there's a difference in muscle growth pretty quickly.

 

[Elektrobot]

I suppose that's what IGF-LR3 does (directly induce growth) but I haven't looked into it very closely. I assume if it was really effective at building muscle there'd be much more interest than there is.

I've heard Dave Palumbo talk about IGF he used like 30 years ago when he had a direct line with someone at a facility that manufactured it, and that he got good results. But that any time he's tried the Chinese stuff since then, he doesn't get the same result. During his Q&A sessions on Youtube he often says he's never known anyone to order IGF a second time.

I was surprised to hear him say that because he's a shill for titan. I figured they would want him talking it up. Maybe the don't sell that in their peptide line

 

[adrenalytic]

I've heard Dave Palumbo talk about IGF he used like 30 years ago when he had a direct line with someone at a facility that manufactured it, and that he got good results. But that any time he's tried the Chinese stuff since then, he doesn't get the same result. During his Q&A sessions on Youtube he often says he's never known anyone to order IGF a second time.

I was surprised to hear him say that because he's a shill for titan. I figured they would want him talking it up. Maybe the don't sell that in their peptide line

I actually did order it a second time haha because I thought maybe I underdosed the previous cycle and wanted to try it again. TUrns out you need to dose like 1-2 grams ED for weeks for any effect, not the 50-100 mcg floating around the internet. Well, at 170 for a kit of 1 mg vials I was out after that.

 

[Elektrobot]

I actually did order it a second time haha because I thought maybe I underdosed the previous cycle and wanted to try it again. TUrns out you need to dose like 1-2 grams ED for weeks for any effect, not the 50-100 mcg floating around the internet. Well, at 170 for a kit of 1 mg vials I was out after that.

Dave does also occasionally throw in an anecdote about igf and a lighter wallet

 

[Deadpool99]

I actually did order it a second time haha because I thought maybe I underdosed the previous cycle and wanted to try it again. TUrns out you need to dose like 1-2 grams ED for weeks for any effect, not the 50-100 mcg floating around the internet. Well, at 170 for a kit of 1 mg vials I was out after that.

Same boat, using lr3 for the second time.
Around the dosing u referred to but in the lower end. I feel it’s basically useless and redundant if I’m on 4ius of hgh.