Perma Cycle Until Bloodwork Says No?

[RockyP]

This all brings me back to my idea of why the fuck are people who aren’t competing blasting gear AND worrying about their health. It’s one or the other. You wanna be a big badass and run grams of gear then go ahead. But then don’t come crying when the chickens come home to roost. Everyone reaches their own mental balance in this game. We all yearn for that free lunch of max doses with minimal health impact. We do what we can but the honest truth is that we really are much more in the dark than we think. Check the data on heart attacks in non obese patients without hyperlipidemia. Or cancer incidence in people NOT doing what we do. I’m not saying hand wave it all away but there needs to be a balance. And part of that balance is likely NOT running more than TRT all the time / until something breaks. Again, there are apparently a lot of “tough guys” around here who love to measure their dick length by counting their weekly dosages. Ignoring them for a moment, I think it’s not the greatest idea to take a single mg more than you need. And being honest with ourselves about what we need is the biggest challenge.

 

[hexagonal]

So what are they? How do you gauge these phantom aspects? Feels? Mirror visuals?

I'm not trying to be antagonistic (well, maybe a little, but in the spirit of good discussion), more of a dive into user mentality.

We don't know so we can't accurately gauge them. We do know that we keep finding more and more deleterious impacts from long-term abuse of AAS.

If you think we know them all or know enough and know how to monitor for the progression of those negative consequences, go for it.

I'm betting there's plenty more we don't understand, and as such, my risk tolerance means taking time off.

 

[abz94]

You said bloodwork now you're referencing other scans and tests. Heart / organ growth will happen from prolonged aas use

 

[adrenalytic]

This all brings me back to my idea of why the fuck are people who aren’t competing blasting gear AND worrying about their health. It’s one or the other. You wanna be a big badass and run grams of gear then go ahead. But then don’t come crying when the chickens come home to roost. Everyone reaches their own mental balance in this game. We all yearn for that free lunch of max doses with minimal health impact. We do what we can but the honest truth is that we really are much more in the dark than we think. Check the data on heart attacks in non obese patients without hyperlipidemia. Or cancer incidence in people NOT doing what we do. I’m not saying hand wave it all away but there needs to be a balance. And part of that balance is likely NOT running more than TRT all the time / until something breaks. Again, there are apparently a lot of “tough guys” around here who love to measure their dick length by counting their weekly dosages. Ignoring them for a moment, I think it’s not the greatest idea to take a single mg more than you need. And being honest with ourselves about what we need is the biggest challenge.

All due respect, while I agree with some of your points, this seems more emotion driven than by logic.

We don't know so we can't accurately gauge them. We do know that we keep finding more and more deleterious impacts from long-term abuse of AAS.

This is my feeling as well. We don't know what we don't know. But in the same respect, just because we haven't discovered something it shouldn't prevent us from living our lives.

If you think we know them all or know enough and know how to monitor for the progression of those negative consequences, go for it.

So shall I put you in the "go for it, just not for me" bucket?

I'm betting there's plenty more we don't understand, and as such, my risk tolerance means taking time off.

Risk tolerance is a great way to look at this. There's a chance that if I go sky diving that my chute won't open even though every known precaution and inspection variable has been accounted for yet people still sky dive. Why? Risk tolerance. Same applies here.

You said bloodwork now you're referencing other scans and tests. Heart / organ growth will happen from prolonged aas use

From the first post:

what are your thoughts on running really high doses year-round as long as bloodwork parameters and appropriate scans are done regularly and come back clean?

Try reading the OP next time. I'm not going to restate the details in every post.

 

[juicebro]

You clearly know zero and are talking out of your ass. Go LARP somewhere else. Grown men are tying to have a discussion.

I know plenty. What you hear them say in Instagram and YouTube is not reality.

I'll give you one chance to back up your big talk with a pic of your physique. I will do the same. Let's see what a "grown man" looks like. No? That means you are a keyboard bitch and look like one.

 

[RockyP]

I know plenty. What you hear them say in Instagram and YouTube is not reality.

I'll give you one chance to back up your big talk with a pic of your physique. I will do the same. Let's see what a "grown man" looks like. No? That means you are a keyboard bitch and look like one.

You need to hurry you're going to be late for 8th period. I think I hear the bell ringing.

 

[juicebro]

You need to hurry you're going to be late for 8th period. I think I hear the bell ringing.

Point proven. Stop trying to act tough or knowledgable when you have absolutely nothing to back it up with. It's pathetic behind the anonymity of an internet forum. You shouldn't be trying to answer people's questions. Just another fat fuck or little weasel trying to appear like an authority when in reality we both know what you really are. Prove me wrong. Crickets.....

 

[Deadpool99]

Bloodwork might be fine but brain function, cognition, adrenals and a number of other functions will get a hit. Being perma at 1000ng/dl with good bloodwork is not the same with being perma at 3500ng with still good bloodwork. Also, besides muscles organs have androgen receptors too iirc.

On the other hand, I've seen couple guys doing stupid shit and being "ok" after 15-20 years of use and never going below 500mg. Pretty sure though mentally they're not in a great place.

Agree at higher doses for longer periods you can look at serious Cardiac remodeling and vascular health risks (LVH, arterial stiffness, coronary plaque) also to my knowledge also kidney micro-damage (fibrosis, nephrosclerosis not caught by creatinine/eGFR early on).

I am also interested in higher doses for longer periods. What I am doing is higher doses of gear but have a cap to how high I can allow myself to go to to prevent most of the cardiac risks, cuz my blood markers on 750 test e/600mg tren a/600mg masteron would make you think I'm on a 300mg test only cycle.

I have dialed in my meds and supps that thankfully my blood markers are never an issue. But my neurological/cardiac/vascular health are what make me use certain compounds for a certain amount of time.

In conclusion:
Cuz higher doses AAS have a cumulative effect that builds up over time and your body would need a break from the high levels of androgens and reset in order to reduce the stress on your heart, vessels, and nervous system, letting them stabilize before the next high-dose phase.

 

[Deadpool99]

Right, but all those things have corresponding tests available. Remember, in our hypothetical thought experiment we're assuming our guy takes every available medical precaution and all his scans/draws come back clean and within range.

Personally my take on it if that even if you run: Regular echoes, CAC scans / CIMT, Brain MRI / MRA, Full neurocog testing, Lipid panels, CRP, HbA1c, homocysteine, etc.

You’re only seeing damage that’s already established enough to be detectable. Monitoring reduces risk by catching issues earlier, but it doesn’t eliminate the risk of sudden, subclinical events (arrhythmia, plaque rupture, stroke). Of course your chances are better than someone who is going blind without doing these tests.

 

[dinfar1337]

Point proven. Stop trying to act tough or knowledgable when you have absolutely nothing to back it up with. It's pathetic behind the anonymity of an internet forum. You shouldn't be trying to answer people's questions. Just another fat fuck or little weasel trying to appear like an authority when in reality we both know what you really are. Prove me wrong. Crickets.....

i recently learned when you hover someones profile, you can click ignore and will never see their messages again.

that guy is defiently on mine.

anyways for a real note tho i know of people running 9 months and i run 6 months cycles myself.

im not really conservative and jump straight to my end dosage and this offseason will run 9 months instead of 6.

happy to hear your experience aswell! fuk this guy pushing his old man trt on everyone just ignore him. its harm reduction not trt forum

 

[adrenalytic]

Agree at higher doses for longer periods you can look at serious Cardiac remodeling and vascular health risks (LVH, arterial stiffness, coronary plaque) also to my knowledge also kidney micro-damage (fibrosis, nephrosclerosis not caught by creatinine/eGFR early on).

Are these conditions not able to be confirmed by a test?

But my neurological/cardiac/vascular health are what make me use certain compounds for a certain amount of time.

Anything specific that concerns you that cannot be captured on a scan or biopsy?

Cuz higher doses AAS have a cumulative effect that builds up over time and your body would need a break from the high levels of androgens and reset in order to reduce the stress on your heart, vessels, and nervous system, letting them stabilize before the next high-dose phase.

Does "taking a break" actually reverse these buildups or does it merely pause until your next blast?

 

[vapor77]

You need to hurry you're going to be late for 8th period. I think I hear the bell ringing.

I've trained with a few IFBB pros, one of which stepped on the Olympia stage for Mens Physique. There is no point at which he was on less than 500mg of gear. Period. And he's not even an open size guy.

 

[Deadpool99]

Are these conditions not able to be confirmed by a test?



Anything specific that concerns you that cannot be captured on a scan or biopsy?



Does "taking a break" actually reverse these buildups or does it merely pause until your next blast?

Btw I am very interested in this thread, cuz I’ve been looking for reasons not to run 600mg tren indefinitely cu i get no sides and no bloodwork issues.

From the info I can find with my research,
Can these conditions be confirmed by a test?
Yes but usually only once the damage is advanced enough to see. The very early, silent stages don’t show.

My question was: are these silent changes even important?

These changes matter because once they accumulate, they eventually cross the threshold where tests finally detect them — and by then, some of the damage is irreversible.

Also tests don’t show micro damage/changes but I was wondering what a vague word, apparently.
These “micro” changes are important because they’re silent, cumulative, and often irreversible. They are the cause, while the echo/CAC/biopsy results you see later are just the consequences.

So these tests would only be beneficial to see how much damage you incurred, so while the damage is building up it won’t rly detect anything enough in real time where if there is an issue building up, you won’t be able catch it early and prevent it; you’ll only catch it after the damage is big enough to detect.

 

[adrenalytic]

You’re only seeing damage that’s already established enough to be detectable. Monitoring reduces risk by catching issues earlier, but it doesn’t eliminate the risk of sudden, subclinical events (arrhythmia, plaque rupture, stroke). Of course your chances are better than someone who is going blind without doing these tests.

This is a great take for someone not using AAS and considering getting on OR someone looking for good reasons to get off. For those in it for the long haul, it feels irrelevant. We've accepted the inherent risk that even if we do everything like we're supposed to, we can still experience complications or even death later down the road.

I'm not seeing how coming "down" mitigates that risk. If our scans and bloods and <insert procedures> come back clean and we do them regularly, coming down just slows our growth potential.

In case it isn't clear yet, I'm looking for hard science on this topic. Not just feels and what we've been instructed to do for decades because "bro did it, I should too". How did the 16 or 20 week cycle become a thing? And then 3 times the duration off cycle? Why are these arbitrary number stuck in our collective modus operandi?

Maybe we can get @Type-IIx and/or @Ghoul to sound off with some hard evidence for "slowing your roll" for periods of time. I really want to understand cycle design better.

 

[Deadpool99]

This is a great take for someone not using AAS and considering getting on OR someone looking for good reasons to get off. For those in it for the long haul, it feels irrelevant. We've accepted the inherent risk that even if we do everything like we're supposed to, we can still experience complications or even death later down the road.

I'm not seeing how coming "down" mitigates that risk. If our scans and bloods and <insert procedures> come back clean and we do them regularly, coming down just slows our growth potential.

In case it isn't clear yet, I'm looking for hard science on this topic. Not just feels and what we've been instructed to do for decades because "bro did it, I should too". How did the 16 or 20 week cycle become a thing? And then 3 times the duration off cycle? Why are these arbitrary number stuck in our collective modus operandi?

Maybe we can get @Type-IIx and/or @Ghoul to sound off with some hard evidence for "slowing your roll" for periods of time. I really want to understand cycle design better.

I agree as well. For me personally, I’m not 100% committed, I did a cycle and did a pct then decided fuck it, my diet/sleep/training/study is 100% on point so if there is a time to blast gear it’s now when I have fully dialed down everything and have all the continuous bloodwork to continue using. I have exactly planned from week 1 to week 75 of this second continuous cycle. Then I’m going on a PCT and re-asses.

Plus everytime I decide on dosages and duration of a compound it’s always to prevent any possible damage I can avoid. As there aren’t that many literature on this subject so I take the better safe than sorry approach as this is not a life commitment and mitigating these issues are my top priority.

So I understand where you’re coming from, many people on here have decided on a lifetime commitment.

 

[newguy2]

I agree as well. For me personally, I’m not 100% committed, I did a cycle and did a pct then decided fuck it, my diet/sleep/training/study is 100% on point so if there is a time to blast gear it’s now when I have fully dialed down everything and have all the continuous bloodwork to continue using. I have exactly planned from week 1 to week 75 of this second continuous cycle. Then I’m going on a PCT and re-asses.

Plus everytime I decide on dosages and duration of a compound it’s always to prevent any possible damage I can avoid. As there aren’t that many literature on this subject so I take the better safe than sorry approach as this is not a life commitment and mitigating these issues are my top priority.

So I understand where you’re coming from, many people on here have decided on a lifetime commitment.

PCT after 75 weeks straight. Hope that works out for you.

 

[Deadpool99]

PCT after 75 weeks straight. Hope that works out for you.

I decided to do a blast and a cruise, so I do a 12-15 week cruise at the end of the cycle. Cycling HCG throughout. Then a long 6-8 week pct or however long it takes. I completed a successful PCT and kept most of my “enhanced noobie gains” but decided I wanted to try a blast and cruise.

 

[adrenalytic]

As there aren’t that many literature on this subject so I take the better safe than sorry approach

This seems to be many people's reasoning for coming down (it is mine as well). I'm trying to probe beyond the irrationality of that thought process.

 

[dinfar1337]

i think its stupid to run indefiently just because your health takes a hit at some point and worse health = worse gains.

prime your body with some time cruising and then jump on and repeat

but you guys got it right, run as much as you can handle for as long as you can if you want as much mass as possible, its simple and it fucking works.

 

[Slowww]

This all brings me back to my idea of why the fuck are people who aren’t competing blasting gear AND worrying about their health. It’s one or the other. You wanna be a big badass and run grams of gear then go ahead. But then don’t come crying when the chickens come home to roost. Everyone reaches their own mental balance in this game. We all yearn for that free lunch of max doses with minimal health impact. We do what we can but the honest truth is that we really are much more in the dark than we think. Check the data on heart attacks in non obese patients without hyperlipidemia. Or cancer incidence in people NOT doing what we do. I’m not saying hand wave it all away but there needs to be a balance. And part of that balance is likely NOT running more than TRT all the time / until something breaks. Again, there are apparently a lot of “tough guys” around here who love to measure their dick length by counting their weekly dosages. Ignoring them for a moment, I think it’s not the greatest idea to take a single mg more than you need. And being honest with ourselves about what we need is the biggest challenge.

This is all good and fair but if you’re competing and not genetic elite trt isn’t going to cut it so people do need to gauge their limits, and draw the lines in the sand as to how far they are willing to go. Not using a mg more than necessary is not that hard. If you are growing dont add gear hahaha. If you’re not growing, and seriously every single aspect is 100%, then add a little more gear.

I don’t know if it’s about being tough, we all have our individual drives, rationales and time frames.Our perspectives on health and conservatism also change based on size. When I was 180 I would’ve thought my cruise now is a cycle, but I wasn’t going to push for 265+ within the next 6 months, nor was I getting any income from my physique or anywhere close to stepping on stage.

Opinions on this are so polarizing especially when we consider genetics and propensity for damage or rate of gain, and people do get butt hurt if they need more and some do want to shame you if they need less or want to portray they are “healthy”. when I talk online some people say oh Im virtue signaling if I think what I’m on is a lot of gear , and other people will say oh man youre a steroid abuser, like a heroin junkie and you have shit genetics.

You can run trt if you want, and my dosages are basically my choice and not actually any of your business.