First Cycle Questions

[tokorealand]

Morning Meso,

I’ve been thinking of getting into injectable TRT - currently on topical TRT(200mg per day) and Enclo from Maximus, but doesn’t feel like what I thought being on T would feel like(tbh libido and energy has decreased - but muscle and body composition has improved). I’m reading a lot more about enclo feeling great for a while, but ends up pretty flat.

My T levels were around 100-200 before starting any replacement therapy, with enclo I was around 400-500 and with topical around 900. I was around 262 lbs 5’7 when my T levels were low and then got to around 202, but back up to 210 after I got burnt out on cutting(Mounjaro had mental sides for me).

Current Health Markers:
LH - 1.1 mIU/mL LOW
FSH - 2.6 mIU/mL
SHBG - 26 nmol/L
E2 - 48 pg/mL HIGH

HDL 34 mg/dL LOW
LDL 100 mg/dL
ApoA1 101mg/dL
ApoB 94mg/dL

Iron 61ug/dL
Ferritin 25ng/mL
RBC - 5.81 HIGH
Hemocrit - 51 HIGH

Blood Pressure: ~120/65



So a couple of questions - some of which I kinda already looked up the answers in the forum, but just to be sure.

1) No real difference between Test C and E?
2) Avg T dose: 100-200?
3 Is AI needed at TRT levels?
4) Worth running other compounds such as Primo, Mast, Anavar?
5) Injection frequency for least side effects?
6) I did use some SSRIs when the mental sides of mounjaro got to me, but completely off them now - is something like PT-141 worth doing while on cycle or unnecessary?


INB4: I have done a new member introduction post!

 

[cousinmuscles]

1) ´Nope
2) Your thread title is "cycle" but then you talk about injectable TRT. TRT dose is somewhere there yes, what is important is that you do blood work to adjust your dose, everyone gets different levels on various doses.
3) No it makes no sense, I can imagine some outlier types aromatize way more than usual, but unless you are overweight (aromatization goes up the more adipose tissue you carry), normal testosterone levels should not make you end up estrogen levels that warrant AI use.
4) Not for TRT.
5) Daily for enanthate/cypionate, decanoate can go with less frequent, undecanoate weekly will give stable levels.

 

[tokorealand]

2) Ahh I see. I'm assuming a cycle is something above TRT like a blast and cruise protocol? I'm fine with doing them just after I dial in my TRT threshold.
3) Well I'm around 28% body fat so aromatization was something I worried about, but haven't seen any with topical TRT so far.
5) I'm assuming daily is the most well tolerated and the only downside is pinning everyday?

Thanks again for the insights!

1) ´Nope
2) Your thread title is "cycle" but then you talk about injectable TRT. TRT dose is somewhere there yes, what is important is that you do blood work to adjust your dose, everyone gets different levels on various doses.
3) No it makes no sense, I can imagine some outlier types aromatize way more than usual, but unless you are overweight (aromatization goes up the more adipose tissue you carry), normal testosterone levels should not make you end up estrogen levels that warrant AI use.
4) Not for TRT.
5) Daily for enanthate/cypionate, decanoate can go with less frequent, undecanoate weekly will give stable levels.

 

[cousinmuscles]

2) Ahh I see. I'm assuming a cycle is something above TRT like a blast and cruise protocol? I'm fine with doing them just after I dial in my TRT threshold.
3) Well I'm around 28% body fat so aromatization was something I worried about, but haven't seen any with topical TRT so far.
5) I'm assuming daily is the most well tolerated and the only downside is pinning everyday?

Thanks again for the insights!

No prob.
2) Yep a cycle is using unnatural levels of test and/or other anabolics for muscle gain.
3) 28% is a lot, get to 15% first. Not only for aromatization, but for general health.
5) Daily for enanthate/cypionate will give very stable levels and you will not feel any difference from day to day. It will also lead to less aromatization for most, better blood count (haematocrit et.c.) control.

 

[BigDadd7]

1) ´Nope
2) Your thread title is "cycle" but then you talk about injectable TRT. TRT dose is somewhere there yes, what is important is that you do blood work to adjust your dose, everyone gets different levels on various doses.
3) No it makes no sense, I can imagine some outlier types aromatize way more than usual, but unless you are overweight (aromatization goes up the more adipose tissue you carry), normal testosterone levels should not make you end up estrogen levels that warrant AI use.
4) Not for TRT.
5) Daily for enanthate/cypionate, decanoate can go with less frequent, undecanoate weekly will give stable levels.

Daily for e/c? Not necessary. Microdosing just accelerates scar tissue. Might be worth it for a 12 week cycle. A pin a day for 10 years- do the math on that. Twice weekly is good for trt. Everything else looks pretty good.

 

[cousinmuscles]

Daily for e/c? Not necessary. Microdosing just accelerates scar tissue. Might be worth it for a 12 week cycle. A pin a day for 10 years- do the math on that. Twice weekly is good for trt. Everything else looks pretty good.

Use slin pins. Twice weekly on those esters will have numbers up and down all the time. Or use decanoate, if you run it long enough you can get away with twice per week - I have done a cycle with decanoate and it took two months of no injections for levels to come down to high normal range. Undecanoate you can probably get away with even less frequent, once a week, and still have very stable levels, but it will take months to build up to those stable levels.

 

[tokorealand]

Is there a major difference between IM and SUBQ for TRT injections? I'm assuming not when you have reached steady state?

Use slin pins. Twice weekly on those esters will have numbers up and down all the time. Or use decanoate, if you run it long enough you can get away with twice per week - I have done a cycle with decanoate and it took two months of no injections for levels to come down to high normal range. Undecanoate you can probably get away with even less frequent, once a week, and still have very stable levels, but it will take months to build up to those stable levels.

 

[cousinmuscles]

Is there a major difference between IM and SUBQ for TRT injections? I'm assuming not when you have reached steady state?

I don't inject oils subcutaneously. I once accidently messed up a Nebido injection in the glute, 4ml ended up subcutaneously. I got a lump the size of a tennis ball and would feel dizzy if I stood up for too long. I have also had small injections leak out of the muscle and end up subq, instantly get swelling and pain.

 

[sionnach]

Daily for enanthate/cypionate

Why not set an alarm and just microdose every 4 hours? That's only 6 pins a day bruh.

1) No real difference between Test C and E?
2) Avg T dose: 100-200?
3 Is AI needed at TRT levels?
4) Worth running other compounds such as Primo, Mast, Anavar?
5) Injection frequency for least side effects?
6) I did use some SSRIs when the mental sides of mounjaro got to me, but completely off them now - is something like PT-141 worth doing while on cycle or unnecessary?


INB4: I have done a new member introduction post!

1. There's a difference. You won't notice it as a beginner. Either is fine.
2. Start low, give it 3 months. Get blood labs. Adjust in small amounts as necessary for your target levels.
3. Most of the time, no. Sometimes yes. Start without, then see answer to #2.
4. No. (Not yet, not for a long time.)
5. Don't worry about it for 3 months. Start as your doc prescribes it
6. These 3 drugs are completely unrelated. Not sure why you framed the question that way.

 

[cousinmuscles]

Why not set an alarm and just microdose every 4 hours? That's only 6 pins a day bruh.

Because I have years of blood work showing improved outcomes with what I do.

 

[sionnach]

Because I have years of blood work showing improved outcomes with what I do.

You do you. Personally I'd pin Prop ED, but I don't see a 100ng/DL peak-to-trough variance from doing E or C 2x/wk as a problem.

 

[cousinmuscles]

You do you. Personally I'd pin Prop ED, but I don't see a 100ng/DL peak-to-trough variance from doing E or C 2x/wk as a problem.

Then what's the problem? Should I refuse to improve my protocol, that gives me the same libido and energy all days of the week, because you haven't tried it and think it doesn't work any better?

 

[sionnach]

because you haven't tried it

Oh did I say that?

My problem with what you said is you're presenting to a complete noob something you do by choice as something that is necessary. It's not, or everyone would do it, and doctors would prescribe it that way. I'm glad you found a way that you like better for you, but telling a guy that hasn't even started yet that he needs to inject every day is just wrong.

 

[adrenalytic]

Is there a major difference between IM and SUBQ for TRT injections? I'm assuming not when you have reached steady state?

Aside from the slower absorption, there's no difference; serum levels don't matter in this equation. As long as it gets in your body it will get where it needs to go. Small amounts of oil subQ daily are fine. I've done it. It just becomes a pain in the ass to pin every day.

Large amounts of oil can become more problematic, leaving lumps behind that can persist for weeks as someone already mentioned (4 mls? Jesus Christ, I wouldn't even do that much for a single muscle let alone adipose tissue).

I wouldn't go over half an ml subQ personally. YMMV.

 

[RockyP]

Everyone else has addressed the specific questions, but I have a few of my own.

1. Do you have sleep apnea? Have you ever had a sleep study? I would suggest getting one if not, especially if you are considering doing more than TRT (and even if just TRT). Sleep apnea is a dogshit illness, will negate lots of the feel good effects of test, and will worsen your high HCT.

2. You lost quite a lot of weight (awesome job!) but those lipids still are not great, especially if you are planning to use more hormones. You want that ApoB preferably under 70 and that LDL under 55ish (given your low HDL). Are you taking a statin or citrus bergamot? I'd suggest one or the other, as those lipids aren't going to get any better on cycle. Statin-wise rosuvastatin or pitavastatin are the move.

Final suggestion - Stay away from Primo, Mast, Anavar until you have more experience and a better handle on your lipid situation.

 

[Rbvasques]

For pinning 100~200mg/week, daily dosing feels a bit much.
2 times a week to 3 times a week should be more than enough.
Now if you life pinning yourself, everyday wont have any downside and likely some benefits that you might notice.

 

[knucklesamich]

Trenbolone, lots of it straight away. Getteup!

J/K

 

[cousinmuscles]

Oh did I say that?

My problem with what you said is you're presenting to a complete noob something you do by choice as something that is necessary. It's not, or everyone would do it, and doctors would prescribe it that way. I'm glad you found a way that you like better for you, but telling a guy that hasn't even started yet that he needs to inject every day is just wrong.

Did you say that? I used to say it can't make a difference because of the pharmacokinetics, until I tried for myself.

Doctors still prescribe shit like injecting once every three weeks "for the testosterone to clear out of the body first". In most of Europe the standard is becoming Nebido (undecaonate) once every 12 weeks, and they are taught that the patient must have testosterone levels in the bottom end of the range by the end of the injection schedule.

Why is it wrong? Buy slin pins and do as you well as you can, if it's EOD its better than once or twice a week. Less acne, better haematocrit control, less estrogen, less mood/energy swings. I wish someone told me from the start to skip the 23g harpoons and go with 30-31g. You are conflating discipline with complexity.

Besides I did point out you can use even slower esters and do it less frequently, for the same result.

 

[tokorealand]

Trenbolone, lots of it straight away. Getteup!

J/K

I heard tren sandwiches are great so I’ll get right on that!

 

[tokorealand]

Everyone else has addressed the specific questions, but I have a few of my own.

1. Do you have sleep apnea? Have you ever had a sleep study? I would suggest getting one if not, especially if you are considering doing more than TRT (and even if just TRT). Sleep apnea is a dogshit illness, will negate lots of the feel good effects of test, and will worsen your high HCT.

2. You lost quite a lot of weight (awesome job!) but those lipids still are not great, especially if you are planning to use more hormones. You want that ApoB preferably under 70 and that LDL under 55ish (given your low HDL). Are you taking a statin or citrus bergamot? I'd suggest one or the other, as those lipids aren't going to get any better on cycle. Statin-wise rosuvastatin or pitavastatin are the move.

Final suggestion - Stay away from Primo, Mast, Anavar until you have more experience and a better handle on your lipid situation.

I do have sleep apnea, but after losing the 60lbs it got a bit better so I stopped using CPAP, but work stress has me in need of it again. I ordered some citrus bergamot and pitavastain, but in the meantime I’ll be trying to double my fiber intake and cardio to manage my cholesterol. I have my annual checkup first week of September.