NPP vs Deca brew problems

[fattie3]

I have brewed Deca using MCT oil, no BB and had very good results at 250mg/ml. Perfect, no PIP very stable.

Last week brewed NPP for the first time, 250mg same recipe and terrible PIP. Also crashed out, needed to warm before using to clear it. Threw it all away.

I was surprised the two compounds are so different to brew. Can anybody help with a better recipe?

I prefer to keep using MCT oil, and I have BB ready to go, prefer to not use other solvents. Thanks

 

[wp_375]

I've NEVER seen 250mg/ML NPP. It's usually 100mg and occasionally 200mg. Probably a good reason for that...

OTOH I've seen 300mg and 400mg per mL Deca.

 

[Anonymous member 154437]

Longer esters dissolve more easily

 

[dick_starbuck]

NPP is not as soluable as Deca. Like all shorter esters. Hence why its usually at 100mg/ml.

 

[fattie3]

Thanks for the replies. Today I brewed a test batch of NPP at 150mg/ml, 20% BB, 1.5% BA, MCT oil carrier. Heated to 120c, held for 10 mins and all went well. The batch is holding in solution at fridge temp very clear.

Note on PIP:
I was using PES type syringe filters. I now think that was what maybe caused the PIP. Thinking the filter partially dissolved into the solution? Horrific thought of that in my body. Switched to .22um PVDF and zero pain.

 

[RaddishPork]

Thanks for the replies. Today I brewed a test batch of NPP at 150mg/ml, 20% BB, 1.5% BA, MCT oil carrier. Heated to 120c, held for 10 mins and all went well. The batch is holding in solution at fridge temp very clear.

Note on PIP:
I was using PES type syringe filters. I now think that was what maybe caused the PIP. Thinking the filter partially dissolved into the solution? Horrific thought of that in my body. Switched to .22um PVDF and zero pain.

I'd still bet that it was the high concentration. 250mg is 2.5x the normal NPP dosage used, and when you lowered the concentration the PIP went away.

Could've been a combination of both for sure though. If you have the resources you could give the 250mg a try again with the other variables fixed up and see how it goes.

 

[fattie3]

It would be very convenient to get to a higher concentration. A forum user posted NPP @200mg/ml with good success so maybe I will give it a go.

 

[Poseidon2022]

T

Thanks for the replies. Today I brewed a test batch of NPP at 150mg/ml, 20% BB, 1.5% BA, MCT oil carrier. Heated to 120c, held for 10 mins and all went well. The batch is holding in solution at fridge temp very clear.

Note on PIP:
I was using PES type syringe filters. I now think that was what maybe caused the PIP. Thinking the filter partially dissolved into the solution? Horrific thought of that in my body. Switched to .22um PVDF and zero pain.

There is the fault. The melting point is 100 C for NPP. You dont need to hit the melting point because you are using solvents. Try another batch. Heat the carrier oil with ethyl oleate to 50 Celsius, add the hormone, let it swirl for 15-20 minutes until is clear.
Let it rest to 35-40 Celsius and add the BA. Swirl another 5 minutes and you can filter 0.22 filter.
PTFE will be the perfect one.

If your carrier is EO you don’t need BB at all. Fill a vial , put in the fridge, 2 days at 4 Celsius. If the vials is clear with no crystals , Voila you have a strong, no pip, NPP.

Enjoy.

PS: Don’t forget Dissolving ≠ melting

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

I was using PES type syringe filters. I now think that was what maybe caused the PIP. Thinking the filter partially dissolved into the solution? Horrific thought of that in my body. Switched to .22um PVDF and zero pain.

1. Use PTFE filters
2. Have you tested these raws?
3. Brew NPP at 150 max(will need 25% BB)

 

[fattie3]

Hmm So you are saying the heat (120c) may have damaged the solution, causing the PIP I experienced?

My reason for heating the solution was not to dissolve but to help kill potential pathogens, even though I am adding benzyl alcohol and filtering to .22 microns.

 

[fattie3]

1. Use PTFE filters
2. Have you tested these raws?
3. Brew NPP at 150 max(will need 25% BB)

Thanks

1. Is there a problem with PVDF filters? I bought a box of 100 and plan to keep using unless there is a compatibility issue with the oil or solvent.

2. I have not sent the raw NPP in for testing but the source was well-trusted on the forums here before suddenly vanishing. You can guess who that was

3. yes the 150mg/ml worked very well.

Will test brew 250 just for fun, see if it holds

I'm not married to the idea of heating the mixture, it just seemed a reasonable extra step for sterility suggested by basskiller (I think).

 

[Sampei]

Thanks

1. Is there a problem with PVDF filters? I bought a box of 100 and plan to keep using unless there is a compatibility issue with the oil or solvent.

2. I have not sent the raw NPP in for testing but the source was well-trusted on the forums here before suddenly vanishing. You can guess who that was

3. yes the 150mg/ml worked very well.

Will test brew 250 just for fun, see if it holds

I'm not married to the idea of heating the mixture, it just seemed a reasonable extra step for sterility suggested by basskiller (I think).

Pvdf is not compatible with high BB and NPP need high BB for 150 or more mg. Your 150mg will crash 100% at 20% BB

For 200mg/ml to be stable no crash 99% you need 30% BB
Works like a charm

Higher MG is not attainable and it's gonna be PIP hell

I like to brew NPP in castor oil 30% BB it's very smooth and it helps increasing slightly the half-life so that I pin it 3X a week.

You need to read a lot more on brewing xD

 

[fattie3]

Pvdf is not compatible with high BB and NPP need high BB for 150 or more mg. Your 150mg will crash 100% at 20% BB

For 200mg/ml to be stable no crash 99% you need 30% BB
Works like a charm

Higher MG is not attainable and it's gonna be PIP hell

I like to brew NPP in castor oil 30% BB it's very smooth and it helps increasing slightly the half-life so that I pin it 3X a week.

You need to read a lot more on brewing xD

Thanks for the bad news on PVDF, better to trash them now if there is a compatibility issue.

Do you happen to have a reference on the compatibility problem?

I think if the mesh was being damaged the syringe filter would quickly load up and go very slow. That's what the PES did.

The NPP @150 / 20% is totally clear after two days in the fridge

 

[Sampei]

Thanks for the bad news on PVDF, better to trash them now if there is a compatibility issue.

Do you happen to have a reference on the compatibility problem?

I think if the mesh was being damaged the syringe filter would quickly load up and go very slow. That's what the PES did.

The NPP @150 / 20% is totally clear after two days in the fridge

PVDF works ok up to 20% BB.

Just search for compatibility chemical charts of filters you will find plenty online.

If you can't find PTFE use nylon, better than PVDF
But you don't need to trash those PVDF just use it for low BB brew

Your raws are not tested so you think it's 150mg/ml you don't know for certainty xD

 

[fattie3]

PVDF works ok up to 20% BB.

Just search for compatibility chemical charts of filters you will find plenty online.

If you can't find PTFE use nylon, better than PVDF
But you don't need to trash those PVDF just use it for low BB brew

Your raws are not tested so you think it's 150mg/ml you don't know for certainty xD

Good point on the potency of raws, I imagine virtually nobody brewing at home is really exactly sure what they have.

I looked at a 6 different compatibility charts from filter vendors like Fisher Scientific, none listed benzyl benzoate as being tested with their products. Maybe there is another similar solvent they are extrapolating from?

 

[Sampei]

Good point on the potency of raws, I imagine virtually nobody brewing at home is really exactly sure what they have.

I looked at a 6 different compatibility charts from filter vendors like Fisher Scientific, none listed benzyl benzoate as being tested with their products. Maybe there is another similar solvent they are extrapolating from?

We are all Homebrewer here and most of us all have our raws tested so you are wrong on that xD

That's odd I have seen charts exactly stating BA and BB compatibility you are searching the wrong way. I'll have a look when I have time and find it for you

 

[fattie3]

We are all Homebrewer here and most of us all have our raws tested so you are wrong on that xD

That's odd I have seen charts exactly stating BA and BB compatibility you are searching the wrong way. I'll have a look when I have time and find it for you

Please post that chart with BB and filter media. I'm pretty good at these interwebs but I trust you xD. If you also have a reference on PVDF filters working for up to 20% BB I would sure many would like to see that as well.

Anyhow I ordered some PFTE filters, quite cheap.

Now on raw product testing... I am very surprised to hear that "most of us" send in a sample for lab testing. Did you perhaps mean to say that most homebrewers read forum supplier reviews showing Janoshek results for the specific raw? That makes much more sense, but a bit different...

 

[dick_starbuck]

Please post that chart with BB and filter media. I'm pretty good at these interwebs but I trust you xD. If you also have a reference on PVDF filters working for up to 20% BB I would sure many would like to see that as well.

Anyhow I ordered some PFTE filters, quite cheap.

Now on raw product testing... I am very surprised to hear that "most of us" send in a sample for lab testing. Did you perhaps mean to say that most homebrewers read forum supplier reviews showing Janoshek results for the specific raw? That makes much more sense, but a bit different...

I hope youre not using Amazon for these filters. That might also explain the PIP lol.

 

[fattie3]

I hope youre not using Amazon for these filters. That might also explain the PIP lol.

Did you have a specific brand of filters in mind, or is Jeff Bezos peeing in all of them before shipping?

 

[Sampei]

Please post that chart with BB and filter media. I'm pretty good at these interwebs but I trust you xD. If you also have a reference on PVDF filters working for up to 20% BB I would sure many would like to see that as well.

Anyhow I ordered some PFTE filters, quite cheap.

Now on raw product testing... I am very surprised to hear that "most of us" send in a sample for lab testing. Did you perhaps mean to say that most homebrewers read forum supplier reviews showing Janoshek results for the specific raw? That makes much more sense, but a bit different...

No mate, I'm saying exactly what I'm saying: we send to Jano our raws and have them test for purity.

I have 10+ different raws and all of them have been tested for purity.

If you wanna brew properly and with health in mind how can you trust they have sent you what you paid for? And how do you know what are you brewing in terms of quantity and quality if you haven't test your raw?

Testing is cheap and anyway with all the money you save from brewing it's just peanuts sending it to test.