My journey from permabulk to get jacked

[Ateam2023]

A little update, yesterday i f@cked up my shoulder and it's quite bad. I'm dealing with such issues for years and last time it was October `23 that forced me to abstain from any pressing movements for almost a year.

This time happened on incline dumbbell press, it was my third exercise and i was quite warmed up. Weight were light for me, 90lb dumbbells since I've worked up to 125's for 12 reps in the past. I felt a sudden pain, did couple reps more, then went to a seated gymleco press and finished with some side delts and triceps.

It was fresh and after so much warming up the pain was mild, i definitely must have stopped and go home. As hours passed pain was increasing and last night i ended up sleeping like 1-2 hours max, i couldn't turn or move my arm without a struggle.

Today it hurts like fu and i feel the whole area like when you do enough side and front delt raises to failure, it's like a pump with pain. I don't know if i eventually teared up something and probably not gonna find it unless it gets worse.

It's definitely not a delt and most probably not ultraspinatus or infraspinatus. It's more towards acromion.

There's a chance this happened due to winstrol or masteron. I've seen plenty reports of ppl saying that both drying your joints.

I'm already on 2mg tb-500 and 2mg BPC daily for quite sometime now and this proves that they weren't able to prevent injury. I'm running out now and honestly thinking if it's worth to keep doing that or just let it heal. Both times i used it i didn't noticed much..

Now I'll reassess in a few days, if i can still train and just avoid pressing movements It's gonna be fine, otherwise I'll have to quit the entire cycle and my cutting phase.

i recent had a similar experience (in my good shoulder) and it was the acrimion area near the front/top of the shoulder, i couldn't raise my arm without pain, so i took 3 weeks off of any pressing movement (what a mental strain) and i was injecting bpc157/tb500 directly into the front delt, sometimes hitting the tendon with my injection (ouchie) but i started back yesterday with pushups for chest just to assess and i felt ok, but can still feel a little soreness,,

 

[Eddie.]

i recent had a similar experience (in my good shoulder) and it was the acrimion area near the front/top of the shoulder, i couldn't raise my arm without pain, so i took 3 weeks off of any pressing movement (what a mental strain) and i was injecting bpc157/tb500 directly into the front delt, sometimes hitting the tendon with my injection (ouchie) but i started back yesterday with pushups for chest just to assess and i felt ok, but can still feel a little soreness,,

Sucks man. I’m in my best state so far and I’m seeing myself quitting due to this.

I was already injecting in that spot, basically rotating between both shoulders and my bicep tendon, I don’t know what else I could have done to prevent this. I’m avoiding going to failure, my technique is on spot..so, fuck it.

 

[malfeasance]

Shoulders are a spot for me that causes trouble and already has me avoiding certain exercises and reducing weights from what I can really push.

Now knees are starting up . . .


Sorry to hear this. I hope it gets better soon.

 

[BabaJagga]

that sucks mate, i have my experience with shoulder injury, super limiting...

sucks even more cause your form is "absolute unit", high dose, probably peaking rn?

wish you quick recovery. are you comming off to cruise or? whats plan now?

 

[Ateam2023]

Sucks man. I’m in my best state so far and I’m seeing myself quitting due to this.

I was already injecting in that spot, basically rotating between both shoulders and my bicep tendon, I don’t know what else I could have done to prevent this. I’m avoiding going to failure, my technique is on spot..so, fuck it.

sorry Brother, i know this is difficult, and taking time off always sucks especially in your circumstances,,

 

[Wizbang]

Get it checked out, maybe you can PT rehab it? I'd blame winny.

 

[Eddie.]

Shoulders are a spot for me that causes trouble and already has me avoiding certain exercises and reducing weights from what I can really push.

Now knees are starting up . . .


Sorry to hear this. I hope it gets better soon.

Thanks man. I have issues since 2010 with both of my shoulders and i genuinely blame it on bench press. I had always the passion to move big weights, reached 4 plates as a natty and now I'm paying the price.

Some guys are built for this, I'm definitely not. I belong to the naturally "strong-er" guys but my joints are too damn weak to support it. I have 2 herniated lumbar discs, messed up hips, bicep tendon, tennis elbow, messed up Achilles tendon and what not. October 23 was the last time i did free bench press after an injury, i came to terms with it but now honestly i don't know what else to do to prevent any further shoulder injuries.

that sucks mate, i have my experience with shoulder injury, super limiting...

sucks even more cause your form is "absolute unit", high dose, probably peaking rn?

wish you quick recovery. are you comming off to cruise or? whats plan now?

Thanks brother! Not exactly peaking but something close, basically the last weeks of cut with lower calories, higher gear etc.

Now after 2 days of complete rest it's already better but far from ok to train, especially push movements. I'm not gonna pull the plug yet, I'd like to give it a few days and decide later.

So I'm keeping the cycle as is and tomorrow I'm going to train legs. The day after tomorrow I'm gonna try a pull session, if i can manage to do a decent workout without making the injury worse I'll continue.

If it goes like shit and shoulder doesn't get better then I'll go to cruise and do a reverse diet.

sorry Brother, i know this is difficult, and taking time off always sucks especially in your circumstances,,

Yeah brother, it is what it is, the main thing it pisses me off is i get injured without maxing out or pushing weights i don't own. Seems like there's nothing i can do to prevent it, unless i train like a 80yo grandpa lol.

Get it checked out, maybe you can PT rehab it? I'd blame winny.

You think it's from winny? So far from the guys that have joint issues from it i hear that they feel fragile in all their joints, like everything hurts. I haven't experienced that but I'd definitely take it instead of an unexpected injury like this.

Going through my insurance is a pita, requires too much time and missed workdays i cannot have.. Also my time for PT is so restricted rn, I'm waking up at 6:30 for work and return home at 20:30 after my training. If i end up so messed up from the injury that i can't train then I'll trade the workout hours for PT. I hope it won't end like that though.

 

[Eddie.]

A little update. I decided to change my cycle since i don't see any reason to continue pushing after my latest injury.

Initial plan was pushing another 3 weeks with deficit, crank the winny a little higher and leave 500 test/500 mast/175 tren as is. This ain't gonna happen because my shoulder it's better, thankfully, but not even close to being ok for a push session or even a decent pull. Yesterday i hit legs and it went ok, tomorrow I'll try a pull session.

I won't get down to low cruise yet, I'll continue with 250 test, 200 mast, 210 tren and I'll drop winny. Perhaps I'll use some anadrol pre workout for couple days in an attempt to retain some water and minerals because it seems winny and most importantly masteron did a number of things in my joints. I really see no reason for me to run it more than 200 and when i finish the couple vials left I'll probably won't bother with it again in the future. I haven't experienced any positive effect from mast. No mood improvement, no extra libido, no strength..just muscle cramps and some dryness.

This is the plan for the upcoming 3 weeks and then I'll do a reverse diet, drop the tren and chill for the rest of summer. September I'll start a push phase for 4-5 months.

 

[Eddie.]

Also another update, reta took a while to peak and now it has hit hard. My digestion is at its worst. It's even worse than when i was eating 700+ carbs per day on blast with 100mg anadrol. I mentioned many times my GERD issues and that I'm taking nexium for years, last weeks i raised my dose and still it murders me. Perhaps tren made things worse but i had started before i add tren.


Yesterday i had last meal at 21:30 and went to bed at 11:45. At around 5 this morning i woke up from my puke, unable to breathe without burping. I was effing gassy, my stomach was a mess. This wasn't the first time lately, it happens often. Before reta if had any digestion issues they'd hit about 2-3 hours after eating. With reta takes 6-8 hours and it disrupts my precious sleep. Appetite finally took a hit too, 6mg seems like a good dose. Although my appetite might took a hit as well because I'm unable to digest and having heartburn issues.

So no more reta, I'm stopping that too and probably reintroduce it from September at a very low dose like 1-1,5mg a week just for the BG management.

 

[BabaJagga]

mate about your shoulder, did you visit any doctors yet? rtg/mri appointments?
hopefully its not anything serious. it sucks so much when something like this happens, i also have/had issues with shoulder...

about mast, you are lean enough to see difference. i must say, im also not that excited from it. im nowhere lean like you, yet, but i probably expected more. i can feel some mental effects but its not much. also, i seem to have 0 water retention and bloating but thats probably more cause of diet and less cause of mast.

i have 18 vials left, i guess i will have to use it in future again. no negatives tho.

about reta, you can always try tirz? i have exactly 0 sides from it. slight nausea for first 2-3 weeks if i remember but its gone. i introduced it to few of my friends that have issues dieting and everybody loves it. and its not expensive from china either. maybe that could be the way.

how are you handling tren? anything interesting to report?

 

[Eddie.]

mate about your shoulder, did you visit any doctors yet? rtg/mri appointments?
hopefully its not anything serious. it sucks so much when something like this happens, i also have/had issues with shoulder...

No i haven't done anything and i doubt I'll do tbh. I'm pretty sure if i do a MRI doctor will say "you have a tear here, a tear there, that problem this problem etc" and it's gonna suck even more. I'm far of thinking anything surgical, so i just don't see any reason yet to do all that stuff to just hear the doctor say to me you must stop and here's the evidence.

about mast, you are lean enough to see difference. i must say, im also not that excited from it. im nowhere lean like you, yet, but i probably expected more. i can feel some mental effects but its not much. also, i seem to have 0 water retention and bloating but thats probably more cause of diet and less cause of mast.

i have 18 vials left, i guess i will have to use it in future again. no negatives tho.

I think i liked more the look on primo. Although, with primo i had some annoying pimples in my arms and shoulders that cleared up when i switched to mast. Also, shots with mast are way more pleasing volume wise and pip wise, but as far as looks, feels and anabolism primo wins hands down.

If I'm gonna ever use a dht derivative again it's going to be only as an additive for a 19nor. Otherwise I'm seeing myself running mostly EQ as a secondary with test.

about reta, you can always try tirz? i have exactly 0 sides from it. slight nausea for first 2-3 weeks if i remember but its gone. i introduced it to few of my friends that have issues dieting and everybody loves it. and its not expensive from china either. maybe that could be the way.

Yeah i could be, although tirz would be best suit me in a deficit since it has a stronger appetite suppression. Reta also give me that skin sensitivity side effect which is very, very annoying. Bearable but man, you don't wanna be touched by anyone and anything.

how are you handling tren? anything interesting to report?

So far very well. My sleep was never worse though but I'm not sure i can blame 100% tren for this. Last weeks my REM sleep is between 10-30 minutes while previously was between 50 - 90. I believe reta had a bigger impact on that than tren but I'll know this for sure in couple weeks after reta wears off.

No tren rage, no prolactin issues, no night sweats etc. Haven't noticed a big boost in libido though or in strength, but that's something usual for me and any compounds I've used so far. It works for recomping though, I'm definitely better on visuals.

 

[BabaJagga]

No i haven't done anything and i doubt I'll do tbh. I'm pretty sure if i do a MRI doctor will say "you have a tear here, a tear there, that problem this problem etc" and it's gonna suck even more. I'm far of thinking anything surgical, so i just don't see any reason yet to do all that stuff to just hear the doctor say to me you must stop and here's the evidence.




I think i liked more the look on primo. Although, with primo i had some annoying pimples in my arms and shoulders that cleared up when i switched to mast. Also, shots with mast are way more pleasing volume wise and pip wise, but as far as looks, feels and anabolism primo wins hands down.

If I'm gonna ever use a dht derivative again it's going to be only as an additive for a 19nor. Otherwise I'm seeing myself running mostly EQ as a secondary with test.



Yeah i could be, although tirz would be best suit me in a deficit since it has a stronger appetite suppression. Reta also give me that skin sensitivity side effect which is very, very annoying. Bearable but man, you don't wanna be touched by anyone and anything.



So far very well. My sleep was never worse though but I'm not sure i can blame 100% tren for this. Last weeks my REM sleep is between 10-30 minutes while previously was between 50 - 90. I believe reta had a bigger impact on that than tren but I'll know this for sure in couple weeks after reta wears off.

No tren rage, no prolactin issues, no night sweats etc. Haven't noticed a big boost in libido though or in strength, but that's something usual for me and any compounds I've used so far. It works for recomping though, I'm definitely better on visuals.

heh, i was the same with shoulder issue. i went to doc, he told he its probably torn. i asked what should i do, he told me stop all excercise and rest for 3-4 months. thats all. hell no...

what was cosmetic difference with primo for you? more full, rounded look? you took primo during kcal surplus, right?
im super flat on mast but thats cause of diet and very low kcals, expected. also 0 libido on mast. like, none. dick works, hard ons on demand but chicks are shapeless objects that im not interested at. same with porn, no jerkin off either. 300/360/500mg paired with 300 test and same result. im glad tbh

With shortage of dht's, im gonna blast test only. no 19nors for me cause of mental sides, no boldenon cause of blood thickening...

about tirz, its brutally effective in diet phase.
im 11 weeks in and minus 18kg. on 5mg every 5 days. no need to increase dose yet.
i was lookin at reta for same health benefits as you during growth phase, in small dose, maybe 1mg every 7 days as tirz killed my appetite at lowest dose. but these sides you are describing sounds... like i dont need it...

are you doin bloods before/after tren?
im curious about health dmg.
i would say, at least for me, sleep during diet is bad without tren also. not sure

 

[Eddie.]

what was cosmetic difference with primo for you? more full, rounded look? you took primo during kcal surplus, right?
im super flat on mast but thats cause of diet and very low kcals, expected. also 0 libido on mast. like, none. dick works, hard ons on demand but chicks are shapeless objects that im not interested at. same with porn, no jerkin off either. 300/360/500mg paired with 300 test and same result. im glad tbh

More fullness, better libido and was definitely feeling better without the annoying cramps that mast gives me. I haven't used it surplus, both times i was in deficit, although this year i started with a smaller deficit which practically was close to my maintenance. After a while i dropped further calories before i switched to mast.

I've heard from many that in a ratio with more mast than test their libido goes to shit, even with estrogen in a good spot.

With shortage of dht's, im gonna blast test only. no 19nors for me cause of mental sides, no boldenon cause of blood thickening...

Have you tried 19nors? Mentally I'm ok, actually I'm pretty zen with tren. I expected to be way worse. And EQ, where's currently your HCT and RBC? EQ didn't moved mine at all, primo had a bigger impact.

are you doin bloods before/after tren?
im curious about health dmg.
i would say, at least for me, sleep during diet is bad without tren also. not sure

I have some basic bloodwork and i know my baseline too, I'm also curious to see how it will be when i end.

 

[BabaJagga]

More fullness, better libido and was definitely feeling better without the annoying cramps that mast gives me. I haven't used it surplus, both times i was in deficit, although this year i started with a smaller deficit which practically was close to my maintenance. After a while i dropped further calories before i switched to mast.

I've heard from many that in a ratio with more mast than test their libido goes to shit, even with estrogen in a good spot.



Have you tried 19nors? Mentally I'm ok, actually I'm pretty zen with tren. I expected to be way worse. And EQ, where's currently your HCT and RBC? EQ didn't moved mine at all, primo had a bigger impact.



I have some basic bloodwork and i know my baseline too, I'm also curious to see how it will be when i end.

soooooo cramps in my abs, jaw and forearms could be cause of mast? i havent linked it to it tbh... but its happening pretty often. DB flat chest press and i had cramp in my abs, nearly killed myself with dumbell....

no, i havent touched any 19nor compounds and i dont plan to. i dont think im gonna gamble with them, too much risk mentally.
i was in bad mental state years back and dont wanna experience it again. or rage from tren. also im not fan of watery look that nandrolone gives. lot of people here are on it and all of them look like shit.

HCT at 44 after 6 months on high-ish dose of anabolics without cruise, hemoglobin 151g/l so midrange on ref. range from my lab and RBC are also in range, tho at upper portion. i expected these to be high but i guess im doin okay with hydration.

im not sure if i wanna go for eq, issue is that i cant offically donate blood. i have nurse that is willing to drain me if it will be needed at home for few €'s... also, ive read some reports of anxiety from it due to weird estrogen/estrone things happenin, long ester etc, probably wont go for it.

but i think i wanna explore test first. i dont think ive maxed out gains on that 500mg/weekly, i know dosing of ai to be without estrogen issues and i can still increase it to 600-750-1000mg if needed in future. then maybe add primo if i will need more mg when i will reach max tolerable dose of test.

if i could add something, it would be oxandrolone 50mg year round.... i loved it...

 

[Wizbang]

I'll ask the dumb question because I don't think I saw it anywhere, you taking glucosamine for your joints? If you're not I think you probably should, may be beneficial.

I have also heard from a number of users that nandrolone is wonderful for joints, I wouldn't want to over load your current cycle but maybe a low dose and drop something else for the joint benefits? I know tren is related but I haven't read as many joint positive things as I have for deca or NPP

 

[Eddie.]

soooooo cramps in my abs, jaw and forearms could be cause of mast? i havent linked it to it tbh... but its happening pretty often. DB flat chest press and i had cramp in my abs, nearly killed myself with dumbell....

no, i havent touched any 19nor compounds and i dont plan to. i dont think im gonna gamble with them, too much risk mentally.
i was in bad mental state years back and dont wanna experience it again. or rage from tren. also im not fan of watery look that nandrolone gives. lot of people here are on it and all of them look like shit.

HCT at 44 after 6 months on high-ish dose of anabolics without cruise, hemoglobin 151g/l so midrange on ref. range from my lab and RBC are also in range, tho at upper portion. i expected these to be high but i guess im doin okay with hydration.

im not sure if i wanna go for eq, issue is that i cant offically donate blood. i have nurse that is willing to drain me if it will be needed at home for few €'s... also, ive read some reports of anxiety from it due to weird estrogen/estrone things happenin, long ester etc, probably wont go for it.

but i think i wanna explore test first. i dont think ive maxed out gains on that 500mg/weekly, i know dosing of ai to be without estrogen issues and i can still increase it to 600-750-1000mg if needed in future. then maybe add primo if i will need more mg when i will reach max tolerable dose of test.

if i could add something, it would be oxandrolone 50mg year round.... i loved it...

I could understand anxiety for EQ although the majority of users don't have on it, but i don't get why you're worried about donating blood when you already are borderline low. Here 42 is the lowest for men, don't expect to to go from 44 to 60 in a matter of few months with a moderate EQ amount. You would probably need 2 grams for a year straight.

Most people having issues with EQ are the ones with a 50+ HCT on just TRT. Personally my HCT was 45 on TRT and after 4 months with test/EQ/NPP and anadrol in final weeks my HCT was 45,5 if i remember correct.

I'm not advocating to use a number of compounds but i think you're way overthinking the side effects. In the end if something doesn't agree with you just stop it.

Also, I've seen plenty of guys being ripped with nandrolone, i know a guy who ran 1gr test + 1gr deca and he is very lean year round. Luki from the other forum used to use crazy dosages, like 2gr test with 2gr deca and he was always crispy lean. It's mostly bodyfat, diet and estrogen management.

I'll ask the dumb question because I don't think I saw it anywhere, you taking glucosamine for your joints? If you're not I think you probably should, may be beneficial.

I have also heard from a number of users that nandrolone is wonderful for joints, I wouldn't want to over load your current cycle but maybe a low dose and drop something else for the joint benefits? I know tren is related but I haven't read as many joint positive things as I have for deca or NPP

I'm not taking any and honestly I don't think I'll try it again. I used to take glucosamine, MSM and chondroitin for months back when my issues started and it i don't think they helped enough to make me wanna take them again.

Nandrolone, i thought about it although i have only NPP now and the one time i used it in my off season I didn't experienced any joint relief at 150mg. There are many guys saying they see this effect only with deca and not with NPP, probably because of a bigger water retention from deca than NPP. Also, I'm already running tren and I don't want to add a second 19nor at the same time.

 

[Ateam2023]

I could understand anxiety for EQ although the majority of users don't have on it, but i don't get why you're worried about donating blood when you already are borderline low. Here 42 is the lowest for men, don't expect to to go from 44 to 60 in a matter of few months with a moderate EQ amount. You would probably need 2 grams for a year straight.

Most people having issues with EQ are the ones with a 50+ HCT on just TRT. Personally my HCT was 45 on TRT and after 4 months with test/EQ/NPP and anadrol in final weeks my HCT was 45,5 if i remember correct.

I'm not advocating to use a number of compounds but i think you're way overthinking the side effects. In the end if something doesn't agree with you just stop it.

Also, I've seen plenty of guys being ripped with nandrolone, i know a guy who ran 1gr test + 1gr deca and he is very lean year round. Luki from the other forum used to use crazy dosages, like 2gr test with 2gr deca and he was always crispy lean. It's mostly bodyfat, diet and estrogen management.



I'm not taking any and honestly I don't think I'll try it again. I used to take glucosamine, MSM and chondroitin for months back when my issues started and it i don't think they helped enough to make me wanna take them again.

Nandrolone, i thought about it although i have only NPP now and the one time i used it in my off season I didn't experienced any joint relief at 150mg. There are many guys saying they see this effect only with deca and not with NPP, probably because of a bigger water retention from deca than NPP. Also, I'm already running tren and I don't want to add a second 19nor at the same time.

with the glucosamine/msm chondroitin supps being mostly "snake oil" IMO it didnt help when i had joint issues which thank the good lord , i do not have any longer, It may help some people , but i think its mostly placebo type or for mild joint "health" for a younger person,

 

[Wizbang]

with the glucosamine/msm chondroitin supps being mostly "snake oil" IMO it didnt help when i had joint issues which thank the good lord , i do not have any longer, It may help some people , but i think its mostly placebo type or for mild joint "health" for a younger person,

It is likely better before the damage has been done I think, I dont know that it's snake oil level but I think the expectation for alot of folks is that it'll fix the issue and I doubt its ability to be a curative, may help but wont completely fix.

 

[Eddie.]

with the glucosamine/msm chondroitin supps being mostly "snake oil" IMO it didnt help when i had joint issues which thank the good lord , i do not have any longer, It may help some people , but i think its mostly placebo type or for mild joint "health" for a younger person,

It is likely better before the damage has been done I think, I dont know that it's snake oil level but I think the expectation for alot of folks is that it'll fix the issue and I doubt its ability to be a curative, may help but wont completely fix.

Yes maybe it helps prevent injuries, but I doubt it’s healing them. Nothing beats healing peptides for this and still, I managed to screw things despite the good dose I was running.

 

[Eddie.]

Today I had a pull session, the first upper body workout since Monday and my injury. It went well, I just don’t see how I’ll return to push sessions. I ditched winny and currently on 250 test, 200 mast, 200 tren. I have another 2-3 shots of Reta to do to finish the vial and then I’m stopping it.

Bodyweight is 100,5kg or 222lb I think.