Are there any other supplements besides creatine that arent a waste of money?

[Proud Pangolin]

Obviously there is creatine and also whey. It works. But are there actually other supplements that really help with muscle growth?

And i dont mean things like omega-3 or vitamins, and minerals. Yes beeing healthy and not lacking any micronutrions will be beneficial but its not like you could prove in a study your multivitamin will increase strenght/recovery/muscle mass like creatine.

Im also not referring to things like lets say a pump booster. Yes having a better pump and therefore a better mind muscle connection will help building more muscle at the end. But its not like arginine helps directly to build muscle.


So is there actually another one?
Beta-alanin? HMB?

Or is it just a waste of money?

 

[AlexDavis43]

Obviously there is creatine and also whey. It works. But are there actually other supplements that really help with muscle growth?

And i dont mean things like omega-3 or vitamins, and minerals. Yes beeing healthy and not lacking any micronutrions will be beneficial but its not like you could prove in a study your multivitamin will increase strenght/recovery/muscle mass like creatine.

Im also not referring to things like lets say a pump booster. Yes having a better pump and therefore a better mind muscle connection will help building more muscle at the end. But its not like arginine helps directly to build muscle.


So is there actually another one?
Beta-alanin? HMB?

Or is it just a waste of money?

none when you're on gear

 

[Proud Pangolin]

none when you're on gear

And if you are not? (Thinking about my pct time)

 

[Benf15harp]

No. Just eat a steak.

 

[AlexDavis43]

And if you are not? (Thinking about my pct time)

Like, not even TRT?

 

[the_pope]

I think TUDCA has been proved to protect the liver, so that's a good one for the occasional beer or if you're taking orals.

 

[AlexDavis43]

I think TUDCA has been proved to protect the liver, so that's a good one for the occasional beer or if you're taking orals.

UDCA is a bit less accessible but seems to do well in this context

I use it daily

 

[Proud Pangolin]

UDCA is a bit less accessible but seems to do well in this context

I use it daily

IMPORTANT: Do not exceed 8 weeks of TUDCA/UDCA use, as it can increase negative cholesterol values and decrease HDL. It is recommended to use these bile salts only during a cycle of oral C17aa anabolic steroids, or for the purpose of liver repair following periods of significant hepatotoxicity from the use of these compounds. Other compounds should be sought after for general year-round liver support. According to this studyhttps://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8674405/ (taken from Examine), TUDCA has been shown to decrease HDL levels when taken for extended periods of time. In normal people, this really isn't a big deal. In people who are constantly using steroids, like blasting and cruising (B\&C), it can become counter-intuitive to run TUDCA for no reason due to decreased HDL levels. For example, on a cruise one wants to let their body recover, and ideally see good bloodwork before blasting again. One key reading on the bloodwork is the HDL, as HDL is one marker that almost always drops significantly while taking exogenous steroids in large dosages. Also, according to the FDA as listed in UDCA's medication safety profile (two sources below), UDCA should not be taken without direct indication to do so, i.e. gallstones or primary biliary cirrhosis. The pros of taking TUDCA and UDCA while not on oral steroids or having one of the aforementioned indications do not outweigh the cons. TUDCA should not be used for year round general liver support, as there are other options (discussed below) which do not have these negative drawbacks, thus making the choice clear.


For allyear around liver support, NAC, Liv.52 Milk Thistle and Cholin+Inositol.
(The order represents their effeciancy in my opinion)

 

[AlexDavis43]

IMPORTANT: Do not exceed 8 weeks of TUDCA/UDCA use, as it can increase negative cholesterol values and decrease HDL. It is recommended to use these bile salts only during a cycle of oral C17aa anabolic steroids, or for the purpose of liver repair following periods of significant hepatotoxicity from the use of these compounds. Other compounds should be sought after for general year-round liver support. According to this studyhttps://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8674405/ (taken from Examine), TUDCA has been shown to decrease HDL levels when taken for extended periods of time. In normal people, this really isn't a big deal. In people who are constantly using steroids, like blasting and cruising (B\&C), it can become counter-intuitive to run TUDCA for no reason due to decreased HDL levels. For example, on a cruise one wants to let their body recover, and ideally see good bloodwork before blasting again. One key reading on the bloodwork is the HDL, as HDL is one marker that almost always drops significantly while taking exogenous steroids in large dosages. Also, according to the FDA as listed in UDCA's medication safety profile (two sources below), UDCA should not be taken without direct indication to do so, i.e. gallstones or primary biliary cirrhosis. The pros of taking TUDCA and UDCA while not on oral steroids or having one of the aforementioned indications do not outweigh the cons. TUDCA should not be used for year round general liver support, as there are other options (discussed below) which do not have these negative drawbacks, thus making the choice clear.


For allyear around liver support, NAC, Liv.52 Milk Thistle and Cholin+Inositol.
(The order represents their effeciancy in my opinion)

My HDL is high and resistant to orals (weird)

Plus you failed to mention the dose

Big diff between UDCA @ 250 mg/d and the pharmacological dose @ 1500 mg/d

I run it year-round @ 250 mg/d and don't typically take orals; just for general liver health

 

[the_pope]

IMPORTANT: Do not exceed 8 weeks of TUDCA/UDCA use, as it can increase negative cholesterol values and decrease HDL. It is recommended to use these bile salts only during a cycle of oral C17aa anabolic steroids, or for the purpose of liver repair following periods of significant hepatotoxicity from the use of these compounds. Other compounds should be sought after for general year-round liver support. According to this studyhttps://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8674405/ (taken from Examine), TUDCA has been shown to decrease HDL levels when taken for extended periods of time. In normal people, this really isn't a big deal. In people who are constantly using steroids, like blasting and cruising (B\&C), it can become counter-intuitive to run TUDCA for no reason due to decreased HDL levels. For example, on a cruise one wants to let their body recover, and ideally see good bloodwork before blasting again. One key reading on the bloodwork is the HDL, as HDL is one marker that almost always drops significantly while taking exogenous steroids in large dosages. Also, according to the FDA as listed in UDCA's medication safety profile (two sources below), UDCA should not be taken without direct indication to do so, i.e. gallstones or primary biliary cirrhosis. The pros of taking TUDCA and UDCA while not on oral steroids or having one of the aforementioned indications do not outweigh the cons. TUDCA should not be used for year round general liver support, as there are other options (discussed below) which do not have these negative drawbacks, thus making the choice clear.


For allyear around liver support, NAC, Liv.52 Milk Thistle and Cholin+Inositol.
(The order represents their effeciancy in my opinion)

That makes sense, good to know.

I'll use TUDCA while on cycle and after the cycle liv.52 to help liver recovery. It seems to be cheaper too, so that's nice.

 

[DreDonte]

Ephedrine is a good one. Not sure if it directly helps growth but I know it helps prevent atrophy during calorie deficits.


I noticed first hand during an aggressive cut where I was feeling weak if I didn't have protein within a few hours, HMB and Creatine did nothing to reduce the weakness (most likely because protein was already high), and Nicotine exaggerated the weakness, but Ephedrine always seems to bring strength back quick, making it easy to stay flexed and feeling strong

 

[Ateam2023]

Ephedrine is a good one. Not sure if it directly helps growth but I know it helps prevent atrophy during calorie deficits.


I noticed first hand during an aggressive cut where I was feeling weak if I didn't have protein within a few hours, HMB and Creatine did nothing to reduce the weakness (most likely because protein was already high), and Nicotine exaggerated the weakness, but Ephedrine always seems to bring strength back quick, making it easy to stay flexed and feeling strong

please explain "how ephedrine helps prevent ATROPHY" during a cut?

 

[DreDonte]

All the research I've seen shows reduced atrophy from B2 Adrenergic Agonism (and there's plenty of research on this), so that's my guess as to the actual pathway responsible.

Here's one study showing increased nitrogen retention during a cut with ephedrine specifically: Effects of chronic administration of ephedrine during very-low-calorie diets on energy expenditure, protein metabolism and hormone levels in obese subjects - PubMed

But either way the subjective difference on and off ephedrine during a cut is substantially noticeable / unquestionable. Even if there was no research backing up it's effectiveness I'd still use it

 

[AlexDavis43]

please explain "how ephedrine helps prevent ATROPHY" during a cut?

similar to clen, it's moderately anabolic or anti-catabolic

 

[CubanQuentin]

Ephedrine is a good one. Not sure if it directly helps growth but I know it helps prevent atrophy during calorie deficits.


I noticed first hand during an aggressive cut where I was feeling weak if I didn't have protein within a few hours, HMB and Creatine did nothing to reduce the weakness (most likely because protein was already high), and Nicotine exaggerated the weakness, but Ephedrine always seems to bring strength back quick, making it easy to stay flexed and feeling strong

I wouldn't call a controlled substance a "supplement" but maybe that's just me being pedantic with semantics

With that said I've found (p-)synephrine, which (very much grossly oversimplifying this) is a less potent but legal over-the-counter alternative to ephedrine, to be okay at doing what stims are supposed to do (give energy, reduce appetite, boost metabolism), specially when I don't feel like taking 1g+ of caffeine

 

[DreDonte]

Yeah I was being a bit lenient in my categorization of supplements, but all you have to do is ask the pharmacist for some, sign a waiver, and be careful not to exceed the 9 grams per month limit after you see the results haha

 

[eery]

things that indirectly increase performance or motor unit recruitment like stimulants, alpha gpc, maybe choline. You have the anticatabolic "supplements" like people mentioned like beta2 agonists that also can help with performance.

things that increase sleep, relaxation will help with longterm recovery like magnesium bisglycinate, theanine, ksm66/ashwaghanda. Abusing stimulants might mess that up though.

You also have mitochondrial things like methylene blue, motsC, slupp332 and so on but im not very well clued up on them.

To answer your question: No, not really.

 

[AlexDavis43]

things that indirectly increase performance or motor unit recruitment like stimulants, alpha gpc, maybe choline.

Check out Aricept for the cholinergic component (acetylcholinesterase inhibitor)

 

[Proud Pangolin]

All the research I've seen shows reduced atrophy from B2 Adrenergic Agonism (and there's plenty of research on this), so that's my guess as to the actual pathway responsible.

Here's one study showing increased nitrogen retention during a cut with ephedrine specifically: Effects of chronic administration of ephedrine during very-low-calorie diets on energy expenditure, protein metabolism and hormone levels in obese subjects - PubMed

But either way the subjective difference on and off ephedrine during a cut is substantially noticeable / unquestionable. Even if there was no research backing up it's effectiveness I'd still use it

Soooo..... Meth is then also anabolic (looking qt you mike mentzer)

 

[Proud Pangolin]

things that indirectly increase performance or motor unit recruitment like stimulants, alpha gpc, maybe choline. You have the anticatabolic "supplements" like people mentioned like beta2 agonists that also can help with performance.

things that increase sleep, relaxation will help with longterm recovery like magnesium bisglycinate, theanine, ksm66/ashwaghanda. Abusing stimulants might mess that up though.

You also have mitochondrial things like methylene blue, motsC, slupp332 and so on but im not very well clued up on them.

To answer your question: No, not really.

Ismt methylene blue suppose.to.block nitrid oxide production in your blood? And thats liek.the opposite what pump booster do.