Biggest Guy I Know Told Me Training Doesn't Matter

[lukiss96]

This is an interesting debate and like any debate there is not a single camp that is right.

There are guys who justify their steroid use or abuse by going balls to the walls training and eat 5k calories, like some BB'ers in this very thread. Which some believe to be the only necessity for AAS.

There are guys who are more moderate and want to have an advantage over most guys in real world, they are not looking to compete or prove anything on the BB/PL/whatever scene. (I do belong in this very group).

There are lazy people who don't even know how to diet and train, but jump on steroids without knowing wtf they're doing. They have no experience. This group should learn the basics first and get their mind together before touching steroids.

I guess, as long as you're being moderate and control your ego and desires to not go over the limit, that group of guys who just want to look good to general population and attractive to opposite sex at the same time can justify their own steroid use, but not abuse.

I do believe in the middle ground, I have aspirations to look muscular, athletic and lean while having an advantage over many other males, I however do not have any interest in competing or proving anything to some niche scene of people. That is how I justify my moderate steroid use. Even when cruising on 150-250mg Testosterone I feel advantages over naturals, I can even say that is my favorite place to be both mentally and physically.

 

[Astartes]

Lol, this statement sounds so hypocritical. If this context is followed, nobody should be on gear.

I disagree. I know more than a few guys on gear at professional levels. They ALL spend MORE time in the gym on gear to maximize benefit

 

[DECLAN]

I disagree. I know more than a few guys on gear at professional levels. They ALL spend MORE time in the gym on gear to maximize benefit

But in the whole scheme of things, are you achieving your goals earlier, hence not spending those extra years in the gym?

Like I said, the context of the comment. I am not condoning not giving your time and effort in the gym, people who cannot commit to eating right and training when off gear should not take the aas for their own good.

People take gear for its recovery factor and for performance too, my comment is directed to how some are becoming gatekeepers on who and who should not be allowed to use aas and making blanket statements is kind of ignorant. If I'm wrong, I apologize.

 

[Astartes]

But in the whole scheme of things, are you achieving your goals earlier, hence not spending those extra years in the gym?

Like I said, the context of the comment. I am not condoning not giving your time and effort in the gym, people who cannot commit to eating right and training when off gear should not take the aas for their own good.

People take gear for its recovery factor and for performance too, my comment is directed to how some are becoming gatekeepers on who and who should not be allowed to use aas and making blanket statements is kind of ignorant. If I'm wrong, I apologize.

In answer to your first question. Yes. You achieve them earlier. No… high achievers never really stop creating new goals. We keep pushing for excellence. I see your perspective on the rest. Don’t necessarily agree..

We _should_ be gatekeepers. All of us. We should be ambassadors of education and guidance. We should be proponents of the knowledge we have gleaned over the years collectively.

Here is why….

I think you are missing the harm reduction piece, paired with societal impact. I’m less educated than others… but my personal perspective is that the impact to the community from people who end their lives prematurely, or damage themselves through ignorance and then blame the community and AAS is what rankles some of us most.

Candidly… people who are lazy in the gym are also lazy in research and understanding AAS. We know this and see it often. (Lazy being a relative term but let’s consider for a moment how many young amateur influencers push for 2-3 day/week workouts of an hour with low intensity … yet blast a gram or more of the harshest compounds…. and use them as an example. They are probably the tip of the proverbial iceberg when looking at those emulating this behavior in the gym)

All these symptoms are evolutions of a systemic root cause. (Discussed by veteran members ad nauseam in this post) As a result these folks are more predisposed to take higher uneducated risks for very low reward.

This bothers me for two reasons.

One… I and others in the community generally want the best for people and we are high achievers who struggle to understand a mentality of “good enough”. Ok… to each their own. I can accept that is debatable and a personal choice.

Two… I don’t like the negative stigma and damage that comes with the foolishness of these folks. (Generally a much larger portion of the abusing population … than those dedicated to understanding and excellence)

It directly impacts public perception when families understandably lash out in anger due to loss or severe damage/injury, and drives a false narrative on the part of the perpetually uneducated and drama driven media. It negatively affects how people view a lifestyle we are very passionate about.

That to me, is abhorrent

 

[MikeyGBoomin]

I once had a neighbor (back during the whole hysteria in baseball era) who displayed contempt for all the 'immoral' baseball players who were linked to AAS use. And he, with a straight face and being completely serious, said something to the effect that 'if he wasn't such a good moral person he would be playing in MLB too.'

It's the same sentiment expressed in the OP's example: training doesn't really matter, it's the drugs.

For example, these are the same type of people who seem to think if they used the same protocol as you, they too would have the same results and become pro bodybuilders too.

Many of us who have followed your journey know differently.

We see (as much as can be conveyed in words/photos/videos) what type of dedication, knowledge, implementation, and of course sheer training volume and intensity it takes to achieve that type of success.

When presented with this, it's more difficult for anyone to really believe they are working just as hard as the pros.

So, yeah training IS always very important.

Exactly!

it always amazes me to see people have such a lack of appreciation for the sheer determination let alone the discipline that you have to have to be able to accomplish the things that these pros (in any sport) have accomplished.

I think it was Deon Sanders that said "It aint easy... i just make it look easy"

Which anyone who has even dipped their toe in and tried to be at an elite level at anything will attest to how much of a grind it is.

I compare shit like the OP to the same logic as drunk fucks in a bar watching a UFC fight talking with their drunk friends about how they could even have a chance against someone like Jon Jones or Connor Mcgregor.
Which absolutely blows my fuckin mind lol.

All in all it minimizes what a select few have been able to do and takes away from their achievements and doesn't give credit where credit is due.

Everyone is always looking for the quick fix and instant gratification.

 

[Millard]

But in the whole scheme of things, are you achieving your goals earlier, hence not spending those extra years in the gym?

I don't really get this.

So if they achieve their goals earlier, what happens then? They just stop training?

It's not like once they reach their physique goals, they keep them indefinitely without any effort.

Most people don't embark on a physique transformation to reach a goal only to lose all their gains afterwards.

They will still need to spend "those extra years in the gym" just to maintain.

Like I said, the context of the comment. I am not condoning not giving your time and effort in the gym, people who cannot commit to eating right and training when off gear should not take the aas for their own good.

People take gear for its recovery factor and for performance too, my comment is directed to how some are becoming gatekeepers on who and who should not be allowed to use aas and making blanket statements is kind of ignorant. If I'm wrong, I apologize.

I don't like the term gatekeeper in this context implying that there is some authority who decrees who is allowed to use AAS and who is not allowed to use AAS.

People use AAS for a variety of reasons. And people have varying opinions on who they think should be allowed to use AAS.

Some say no one under 21 should use AAS; others say 25 or even older.

Some say recreational athletes with at least 5 years serious training under their belt; others at least 1 year.

Some say only competitive athletes should use AAS; others only elite athletes; and yet others only professional athletes.

Is there a "right" or "wrong" answer?

When it comes to harm reduction, we must be careful about our personal judgments because people get involved with AAS for various reasons, and their risk/reward assessment differs.

So, we must try to help people wherever they are at. Rather than blanket assessments like 'you are right' or 'you are wrong',

I think it's better to encourage people to think critically about how they can reduce risk or at least improve risk/reward ratio rather than rejecting them or ostracizing them.

If you can encourage people to move along a better path, even if it's not the best way, that is a good thing.

 

[Millard]

We should be ambassadors of education and guidance. We should be proponents of the knowledge we have gleaned over the years collectively.

I really like your post. I like the term ambassador over gatekeeper too.

Promoting and encouraging AAS education and harm reduction has an impact at the individual level. And as you astutely point out, can have a larger impact at the societal level.

Bodybuilders/AAS users are already a marginalized group. AAS users who are uninformed and/or irresponsible with little regard for associated risks make all bodybuilders look bad. Public perception is consequential for many reasons not the least of which is legal/political.

 

[DECLAN]

I am not disagreeing with what everyone is saying lol. I'm with you guys, I'm just saying, our goal are achieved easier through the use of gear no matter how you do it, 100mg per week or 1000mg per week. My point is not whether you abuse it or not, I'm just stating the fact that as soon as you introduce exogenous hormones you are already expediting your journey to your goal.

To be clear I am not advocating anything nor judging anyone.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

But in the whole scheme of things, are you achieving your goals earlier, hence not spending those extra years in the gym?

Like I said, the context of the comment. I am not condoning not giving your time and effort in the gym, people who cannot commit to eating right and training when off gear should not take the aas for their own good.

People take gear for its recovery factor and for performance too, my comment is directed to how some are becoming gatekeepers on who and who should not be allowed to use aas and making blanket statements is kind of ignorant. If I'm wrong, I apologize.

More gear will not increase tissue accrual for the vast majority of people if your training or diet is shit. I see it every day. There's no "take 3g instead of 2 and spend 30% less time in the gym" equation. Hence 90% of gear users looking like hot garbage.

Nobody's saying they aren't allowed. Just that they're stupid...

 

[Rido]

Hence 90% of gear users looking like hot garbage.

I notice this on the Facebook groups where everyone shows their body. "Gear for 20 years" big ass belly, or doesn't even look like they lift.

 

[DECLAN]

More gear will not increase tissue accrual for the vast majority of people if your training or diet is shit. I see it every day. There's no "take 3g instead of 2 and spend 30% less time in the gym" equation. Hence 90% of gear users looking like hot garbage.

Nobody's saying they aren't allowed. Just that they're stupid...

Lol, I am just pointing out that the pathway to getting to your goal is faster with gear whether you use 100mg or 10000mg thus you spend less time in the gym in total in theory.

I am going to repeat it again, I just made a simple comment and I did not advocate abuse or anything to condone it. Like I said, I agree you need I too am following everyone's advise to get their training and diet prioritized before even thinking of gear.

 

[Millard]

I am just pointing out that the pathway to getting to your goal is faster with gear whether you use 100mg or 10000mg thus you spend less time in the gym in total in theory.

Yeah, but there is a lot ambiguity and oversimplicity in statements like this.

Let's say...

After 1 year on 1000mg test, a person gains 20lbs LBM.

Does that mean:

It will only take 6 months on 2000mg test for the person to gain the same 20lbs?

No. It likely would have taken them just as long anyway regardless of how much more they increased the dosages.

And most likely, the person could have gained the same 20lbs on 500mg test or less.

The mentality of escalating the dosages at every level (particularly the beginner level) to speed up gains is misguided, usually doesn't help, and most definitely unnecessarily amplifies the risk involved.

The approach of maximizing gains while using as little AAS/PEDs as possible to achieve your goals is much more sensible in every regard.

 

[Astartes]

I am not disagreeing with what everyone is saying lol. I'm with you guys, I'm just saying, our goal are achieved easier through the use of gear no matter how you do it, 100mg per week or 1000mg per week. My point is not whether you abuse it or not, I'm just stating the fact that as soon as you introduce exogenous hormones you are already expediting your journey to your goal.

To be clear I am not advocating anything nor judging anyone.

Gotcha. One thing. This whole discourse has been quite enjoyable and led to some very functional debate. Don’t ever feel like you can’t challenge others here.

Just because we don’t agree with you doesn’t mean we believe you are incapable. Challenge (right or wrong) is the medium through which we grow, adapt and change. As long as it doesn’t devolve in to trolling or lashing out. (At which point people close down and cease learning)

In my mind challenge is critical to our evolution, and cohesion as a community. I want us to challenge each other in a healthy manner.

 

[Norse13]

I observe an occasional air of superiority in this thread. "Stupid, has no business to use, lazy, look like shit" etc. I've been using aas for most of 31 years, and look like shit compared to a 25 year old gym rat, or physique competitor. Yet I still enjoy it, and I continue to use it. It's part of my hobby.

I don't think a man should be telling another adult man how he should live his life, what he can and cannot do.

If someone has 4 hours a week in-gym, maybe that's the time that is available. I prioritise feeding, housing, schooling my children. Kids have to go for swimming and football training in the evening. I do a lot of job travels, have elderly parents that I visit etc. I even take my wife out for date nights, dinner & drinks. That may be considered lazy in some folks eyes, that I don't prioritise more gym time.

It is what it is, it gives me enjoyment in life. Just my 2c.

 

[Billenmatthew]

I did not expect to agree with what he said based on the title but after reading I’ve had very similar experiences. The key point to takeaway is don’t stress about finding the most optimal lifting program. 10-20 quality sets per muscle group per week either once or twice has never done me wrong. Find a workout regimen that you enjoy because this is not a sprint. You will eventually burn out if you don’t enjoy the workouts.

 

[Nilatac]

I notice this on the Facebook groups where everyone shows their body. "Gear for 20 years" big ass belly, or doesn't even look like they lift.

That's why diet is more important than training. You can look decent if you just keep your diet in check and do some swimming and calisthenics.
The topic is diet and drugs are more important than training not just drugs are more important than diet and training

Some of you forget what was the topic in the first place

I put few pages back a study on how 600 mg of test increases muscle mass on people without training. There was regular people not some who train but still it's showing what more hormones can do.

 

[Rido]

If someone has 4 hours a week in-gym, maybe that's the time that is available. I prioritise feeding, housing, schooling my children, do a lot of job travels, have elderly parents that I visit etc. I even take my wife out for date nights, dinner & drinks. That may be considered lazy in some folks eyes, that I don't prioritise more gym time.

It is what it is, it gives me enjoyment in life. Just my 2c.

After doing hard commitments of 5-6(sometimes 7)days a week in the gym.
I have been doing 1 hour of weight training and 1 hour of LISS lately. So 10-14 hours in the gym. And let's say 1.5 hour communit time weekly


I couldn't imagine doing this with kids. Even coming home to my wife she knows im tired.

That's just kids, I couldn't imagine the rest of the shit you have to deal with.

be the best gym rat or terrible dad/husband/son


But we have to admit. There are people that are on AAS with shit diets and run levels of gear they shouldn't touch.

 

[Rido]

That's why diet is more important than training. You can look decent if you just keep your diet in check and do some swimming and calisthenics.
The topic is diet and drugs are more important than training not just drugs are more important than diet and training

Some of you forget what was the topic in the first place

I put few pages back a study on how 600 mg of test increases muscle mass on people without training. There was regular people not some who train but still it's showing what more hormones can do.

I have to look at the bhasin study but I'm sure water/glycogen retention in the muscles can skew the results

 

[Nilatac]

I have to look at the bhasin study but I'm sure water/glycogen retention in the muscles can skew the results

Here to not scroll in all topic. Their diet was in check by eating 36 calories/kg and 1,5 g/kg of protein.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejm199607043350101

 

[Astartes]

After doing hard commitments of 5-6(sometimes 7)days a week in the gym.
I have been doing 1 hour of weight training and 1 hour of LISS lately. So 10-14 hours in the gym. And let's say 1.5 hour communit time weekly


I couldn't imagine doing this with kids. Even coming home to my wife she knows im tired.

That's just kids, I couldn't imagine the rest of the shit you have to deal with.

be the best gym rat or terrible dad/husband/son


But we have to admit. There are people that are on AAS with shit diets and run levels of gear they shouldn't touch

Brother. When the day comes… As motivated as you seem to be, I have no doubt you will find the way to be a good husband, father and avid lifter.

They don’t have to be mutually exclusive.

I work 10 hrs a day as an executive (never really not on call) have an AMAZING wife and best friend (who lifts with me… huge factor) and love on 3 beautiful children… one of which is a whirlwind 3 year old.

Being a father and husband are the greatest adventures in my life and I have lived a very adventurous life by any standard.

People have an amazing capacity to find time and create space/opportunity. It’s like when folks told me… have kids,.. you will find a way to afford it, (I thought they were absolutely crazy)

Sure enough…. Turns out they were right. Will and ingenuity are powerful factors.