I would like you in my proverbial foxhole. I know at some point we would see the same light.
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Russia begins invasion of Ukraine
- Thread starter Fifap94
- Start date
All right Paul. Just hear me out.
This might be long, but stick with me
I wonder what makes you think Russia wanted to invade Ukraine? I ask because I don't think they wanted to at all.
If Putin was just waiting for a pretext, he had one back in 2014
The Donbass people, much like the Palestinian people, resist the dominance of global capitalism that supports what they see as fascism in Ukraine for the past eight years.
For those like yourself who think Putin is a megalomaniac sociopath, intent on drawing Europe and the U.S. into some kind of Machiavellian war in order to massage his overinflated ego, well to me, that just doesn't line up with the facts.
Over the past eight years, Putin has avoided a conflict with Ukraine, and by extension the EU, United States and NATO, through his refusal to annex the Lugansk and Donetsk Republics or indeed to formally acknowledge them as independent states. He could have done this at any time. It sort of a wild amd irrational claim that "Putin wants to carve off pieces of Ukraine" has no factual basis to it whatsoever. The Russian parliament overwhelmingly voted to recognize the Donbass as independent. Putin could've took it then with overwhelming support and didn't.
Instead he allowed the Minsk Agreements 1 and 2, from 2014 and 2015, to form the basis of negotiations between the Lugansk People’s Republic, the Donetsk People’s Republic and the hostile government in Ukrainefor over seven years, this allowe the infamous fascist, pro-neo-Nazi nationalist, Ukrainian armed forces Azov Battalion, to continually violate the Minsk Agreements by shelling the independent republics with prohibited military munitions, causing death and destruction. Russia took 8n millions of refugees during this time amd Putin was under tremendous internal pressure to get more involved. But he didn't
Zelensky being courted by the West took things further, when he escalated tensions and violence on the line of contact and prepared, in February, 120,000 Ukrainian soldiers to invade and reoccupy the Donbass region.
Zelensky stated publicly he wanted Ukraine to become a nuclear power. I'm sure this had to get the attention of the Russian government.
So, in my mind all this led Putin to having some limited options
1) Allow Kiev to retake the Donbass Republics, thereby placing pro-Nazi Ukranian nationalists on its border
2) recognize the two independent republics and send troops to protect them; or 3) recognize the two independent republics, followed by a limited incursion into Ukraine to disarm the fascists (as he sees them) and save Europe from another war by eliminating the current threat he sees today.
The other option in my opinion could have been to shut off Russian gas to Europe and ask for UN peacekeepers to deploy in donbass. But this wouldn't solve what he seen as the rise of a hostile regime in Ukraine. This was like China executing a coup in Mexico and putting the sons of Fidel Castro in power. Surely the US is going to stand up and take action
Here is the background you will not read or hear on Western, warmongering media like the BBC: Victoria Nuland bragged in 2014 how the U.S. spent $5 billion creating the circumstances that led to a fascist coup in Kiev, toppling the democratically elected president. The Maidan Square protests were organized by pro-Western, anti-Russian Ukrainian nationalists and fascists, who used guns and violence to depose the government and orchestrate an antidemocratic, illegal takeover of power, which was handed to the fascist descendants of the pro-Nazi Bandera ideologists, who fought alongside the Waffen SS in the Second World War. At least thats how Russia sees it
I can't think of any rational person not understanding how Russia could not see this as a national security threat to them. This was a US orchestrated coup that put old enemies of Russia into power in bordering Ukraine. With NATO expansion a real possibility
So to me, I don't share your opinion that Russia wanted invade Ukraine. I believe they thought they had to.
Whether or not there was another way, is irrelevant at this point as they made the choice to invade. So that's on them.
But the US refused to allow a hostile government in Cuba armed with Russian missles and invaded Cuba to prevent it in 1963. We tried to assinate their leader multiple times and started civil unrest dozens of times.
Why do you think Russia would allow a hostile Ukranian government armed with NATO missiles?
I feel like there is common ground here if all sides will look, and admit culpability in the current situation.
We don't need nuclear war here. We need to avoid it.
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Whether you agree with me or not @Big_paul it never hurts to try to understand your adversaries on their own terms.
I respect your compassion and patriotism. But I do ask that you at least consider some of the things we discussed here. And reflect on my beliefs that I just want to be able to say the our own leadership did everything they could to prevent this.
And can't say that. Because I know they did everything they could do to agitate it.
And I don't like that. I can't help what other countries do. But I can try to hold our own leadership accountable for what they did or didn't do here.
It's the only real power we have.
I respect your compassion and patriotism. But I do ask that you at least consider some of the things we discussed here. And reflect on my beliefs that I just want to be able to say the our own leadership did everything they could to prevent this.
And can't say that. Because I know they did everything they could do to agitate it.
And I don't like that. I can't help what other countries do. But I can try to hold our own leadership accountable for what they did or didn't do here.
It's the only real power we have.
? putin invaded Ukraine.
The pretext of killing nazis was bullshit
But they?
And he invaded Ukraine.
Zelenzky has stated that the people of Ukraine would decide if parts of their country would become Russia.
I'm all about free elections. If the people of east Ukraine choose to be Russian, let them decide.
Becoming a member of an international terrorist state has its baggage for many years to come.
I don't believe this nation will elect anyone who will suck russian cock in 24.
I had to invade my neighbor because he had a party until 2am the other night.
I just told him I couldn't sleep and my wife was on my ass. I didn't shoot him in the head.
Russia shot him in the head.
I have thought of this. Would it have been better to live under Russias thumb. Ukraine is not down with that idea.
Since you mentioned the Palestinians I support a 2 nation state that guarantees the isreali 1967 borders.
They have ans good of a chance regaining Palestinian as the Cherokee nation does.
The only question is how can we as the western world soften the landing.
Isreal is carved in stone.
Unfortunately the only way to avoid that is MAD. that piss ant dictator understands that.
If you you think we are in the worst threat of nuclear war since the cold war, we are.
We have to stare the dictator down and let him know his daughters die with the rest of the world. That may be something that motherless bastard understands.
We will soon find out.
You're assuming he's worse than the warmongering, lying, conniving bastards on our side, and that he'll cower down to them.
I don't think he's any worse than Joe Biden or Barak Obama who dropped thousands of tons of bombs on innocent civilians and ordered hundreds upon hundreds of drone strikes and manufactured famines to get compliance. Not to mention told lies about weapons of destruction to justify invasions. Topple governments all over the world in violent revolutions manipulated into being by their own corporate interests.
Putin is definitely a ruthless dude.
But he's no worse than the lying, conniving and corrupt bastard in the Whitehouse here.
I just hope the people don't keep suffering over the greed of these bastards. Because one is no better than the other.
How long are you going to argue with me when it is so obvious which side evil is.
I'm not going to repeat myself.
I respect your opinion as a thinking person, but I will never agree with you.
It hurts my heart to disagree with you because I know we are the same.
Hightower
Member
No one knows how this conflict will end.
Hightower
Member
In fact, in such a case, basic instincts work, i.e. survive at any cost. In any animal, it is primary, these are the basic instincts that work.
Hightower
Member
In fact, we do not know how it will be with Russia. In any case, more than 70% of people support the special operation in Ukraine. Their isolation works in reverse, unites the people against the whole world. Russians are a different people, they do not have everything like ours.
Hightower
Member
Here, each side is waging its own information war, they paint one picture of the world for us, another for them in Russia. And everyone will defend what is closer to him and what he personally can believe in, am I mistaken?
Hightower
Member
That's what you're saying, I also read in many independent sources. And already the picture is not seen so unambiguously that they say Russia is engaged in the destruction of Ukraine. In this conflict, everything is very confused and intertwined. And to figure it out, you need to study a lot of contradictory information.
It's okay to disagree Paul.
We're on the same side. I'm on your side, I'm an American too and I love my country just as much as you do. I just hate my government.
The Russian government is not synonymous with the Russian people any more than the cia is to the American people. I have no issues with Russian or ukranian people. I dislike both of thier corrupt governments almost as much as I dislike my own corrupt government.
Evil? All I can say is that evil I defined by actions. Our own government has done more than it's share of evil in the world, and continues to do it even today. We don't go around the world overthrowing corrupt governments and installing non corrupt governments. We install corrupt governments that allow our business model to enter and exploit thier people. That's evil if anything is.
I don't want my own government doing evil things to benefit rich billionaire donors to political parties anymore. I don't want someone like joe biden taking bribes from poor countries like Ukraine and the leading them by the hand into war with an adversary we created and continue to agitate.
There's nothing wrong with us disagreeing with one another. There is something wrong when we begin to demonize eachother over it.
I respect your opinions too. Even when I don't agree.
The worst thing I see today is a familiar trend.
The panic and maniacal hatred and violence the American press filled many left leaning people with ,along with the covid pandemic and rising inflation and misery have driven this sort of rage filled hostility they want to channel out anything or anyone they can blame.
"White supremacy" "racism" "Trumpers" "neo confederates" "they, they, they"
Everyone. Except the people who are responsible.
There's now a scapegoat. A scapegoat for everything they've done the past few years starting with instigating the riots of 2020 down to the record spending they did to create the inflation.
The scapegoat is Russia now. They started this back in 2016 when Hillary Clinton lost. " It was Russia " they said.
Then they made up lies about "Russian collusion". "Russian meddling" and "Russian propoganda"
They they blamed their own scandalous behavior on "Russia" and "Russian disinformation". In many cases, they didn't even deny the scandalous behavior. They just it a "Russian smear job". Making a Boogeyman for the masses.
And now "Russia" is to blame for the mess they've created. And many people buy the bullshit.
One day, soon hopefully people will look back and realize just how stupid it all was.
Just like "weapons of mass destruction". And they'll all deny they fell for it. And blame someone else.
But they'll never blame themselves and the leadership responsible for propogating it.
The panic and maniacal hatred and violence the American press filled many left leaning people with ,along with the covid pandemic and rising inflation and misery have driven this sort of rage filled hostility they want to channel out anything or anyone they can blame.
"White supremacy" "racism" "Trumpers" "neo confederates" "they, they, they"
Everyone. Except the people who are responsible.
There's now a scapegoat. A scapegoat for everything they've done the past few years starting with instigating the riots of 2020 down to the record spending they did to create the inflation.
The scapegoat is Russia now. They started this back in 2016 when Hillary Clinton lost. " It was Russia " they said.
Then they made up lies about "Russian collusion". "Russian meddling" and "Russian propoganda"
They they blamed their own scandalous behavior on "Russia" and "Russian disinformation". In many cases, they didn't even deny the scandalous behavior. They just it a "Russian smear job". Making a Boogeyman for the masses.
And now "Russia" is to blame for the mess they've created. And many people buy the bullshit.
One day, soon hopefully people will look back and realize just how stupid it all was.
Just like "weapons of mass destruction". And they'll all deny they fell for it. And blame someone else.
But they'll never blame themselves and the leadership responsible for propogating it.
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I think the writing is on the wall here.
Russia will dig in and fortify the Eastern Ukraine parts of the Donbass. Luhansk, Donetsk and Crimea and stay until they get independent statehood or annexation by Russia. Because of the local communities and people in those places they'll have enough support to stay indefinitely. The US cannot make them leave. And the local population will not trust the US government and rebel.
Then the US banking firms and international monetary fund will decend on Ukraine like vultures and buy up all the assets for pennies on the dollar so that Cargill or Pillsbury can sell ukranian wheat and Exxon or shell can sell ukranian gas instead of the ukranian people.
They'll call it something like "bringing freedom to Ukraine" or the like and pick their pockets and plunder the country while the Ukrainians are laying face down in the muck. The ones they can't send to Eastern Ukraine to stir up shit in the Donbass will be sent to work in Ukranian factories , oil/gas Fields and farms for American corporations.
That's what this was all about anyway.
The US overthrew the Ukrainian government twice in 10 years for a reason. It obviously wasn't to "bring peace to the ukranian people"
Then Russia will fortify Luhansk and Donetsk along with Crimea and prepare for the next US NATO round of "preserving democracy". As soon as Ukraine is thoroughly US owned and subsidized those places will heat up again.
It's an all too familiar pattern that anybody except democrat party supporters can easily recognize.
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View: https://youtu.be/dUask2cfFh4?t=321
More civilians killed by Ukraine's Azov according to a witness.
It's hard to make people understand. Especially those that mean well. Like @Big_paul that Ukrainian forces like Azov have been fighting a civil war the Ukrainian government started in the Donbass since 2014.
It's been bad enough that almost 3 million ethnic Russian refugees fled into Russia over the past 8 years and internal pressure inside Russian parliament to get involved was immense.
Joe Biden howling for NATO membership was the straw that broke the camels back. Because Russian leadership has been unanimous on the subject that they will not accept a hostile Ukranian government on it's border armed with NATO missiles backed by western interests.
They said openly that they would turn Ukraine into rubble first.
Now they're doing it.
And instead of that piece of shit Joe Biden calling for peace talk's to end the war, he's cheering it on while shouting insults and venomous vitriol from the sidelines.
Fucking sad. And Americans buy his bullshit.
None of this had to happen. None of it.
Hightower
Member
I think you are right and everything will continue to develop.
Hightower
Member
Based on what is happening now and what can be collected from independent sources, this is more than real and what is likely to happen.
Hightower
Member
A very convenient position, blaming Russia for everything. Create an enemy for yourself and blame him for everything in the external and internal problem.
But in fact, our politicians are simply destroying our country, all the latest politicians only worsen the situation. It's getting worse and worse, the unskilled and the result is the economy is fraying at the seams, society is indignant.
