What's up with Islam?

[CyniQ]

I know that there are some Muslim bros on here. OT, I think? Desi? Some others. I've never personally read the Qur'an and don't pretend to know much. Okay, sometimes I pretend to know all kinds of shit. [Don't go using that against me you bastards] Anyway. I'm currently taking the position that either the terrorists are "good" muslims and the rest are too lazy to keep the faith... or it's the other way around. And the majority of Muslims are correctly practicing Islam and the terrorists have bastardized the religion. If "good" Muslims, are like "good" Catholics, etc. then the minority is practicing the religion in the appropriate way... which would make the terrorists... the "good" ones.

I'm not trying to insult anyone. Just have a decent conversation and gain some perspective.

Anyone else, feel free to pitch in, hate Jews, hate me, etc.

 

[swing]

I'll take the bait. The "terrorists" basic premise for fighting is for the protection of the Muslim countries from Western occupation. This is ONE of the fundamental principles of jihad. However, some of their tactics are considered to be unlawful by Muslim scholars. Particularly, the killing of civilians. In fact, I am unaware of any other religion which expressly forbids the killing of non-combatants. Although, many Muslims might not participate in physical combat, they may support the resistance by supplying funds other assistance, or even by simply praying for their victory.

If you look at the history of terrorism, one would notice the US was not specifically a target until the early 1990s. This was due to the rapid build-up of large military forces in the Arabian Peninsula, the political influence that was wielded by the US in those countries (Qatar, Bahrain, Dubai, Lebonan, Jordan, etc), and the result of the US being both directly and indirectly responsible for the deaths of thousands of arab civilians. However, the straw that broke the camel's back was the troop presence in Saudi Arabia.

 

[joeycrabcakes]

I thought "true" Muslims frown on the terrorist's actions. That's not what they were about and they make the religion look bad.

 

[swing]

The majority of Muslims without a doubt frown upon terrorism (the attack of innocent civilians). However, I'm not sure that attacking legitimate military targets can be construed as terrorism. The Qur'an in a number of instances grants Muslims permission to: "fight those who fight you," and "drive you from your homes," and "fight you because you say, "Our Lord is Allah." However, it also cautions Muslims not "to transgress the boundaries set by Allah." And additionally, instructs Muslims that if the party they are fighting seeks to make peace then they are obligated to participate in bringing about a peaceful resolution.
Also, Muhammad has forbidden the killing of the non-combatants, women, children, the elderly, the burning of crops, and slaughtering of the enemies cattle. Again, I am unaware of any religion that grants their enemies rights against being oppressed. Even now in this democracy of ours, there is a debate concerning whether or not enemy combatants possess rights. Islam was lightyears ahead regarding this issue.

 

[Kayz]

From my understanding, Islam does NOT say ''....do not kill non-combatants", but rather states "...do not kill fellow muslims". Big difference IMO. When the war first started, terrorists went to great lengths to kill ONLY those of NON-muslim origin because the Quran stated that a Muslim should not kill a fellow Muslim. Over the past couple of years though, the ideology of radical Islam has evolved to permit the killing of fellow Muslims if they are "aiding" the US forces. They have contradicted the very thing they stood for only a couple years prior.

I am upset that all we hear about is how Islam is a religion of peace. Bullshit....no religion is a religion of peace because religion by nature is a very unaccepting institution. Catholics think they are right, Christians think they are right, and Jews think they are right. The fundamental difference is that these religions do not call for the total destruction of non-believers (i.e.: those who do not worship and Muhammad).

Also, where is the outrage in the American Muslim community decrying the unchecked and deliberate slaughter of innocent civilians all over the world. When the US bombs an "innocent" house the UN, Amnesty International, Reuters, CNN, New York Times, Red Cross....and everyone else are all over like flies on shit. And I don't buy the argument "..well, most muslims disapprove of the acts of the terror".....because if they did, they'd speak up and say so. IMO, their silence is a virtual show of support.

 

[CyniQ]

Ah, swing. I forgot about you. Good to see you.

You sure are in the habit of making sweeping generalizations. Muslim fundamentalists express a hatred for westerners/christians that just isn't seen on the other side of the equation. The comment that no other religion grants mercy is, in a word, the absolute most retarded thing I've ever read. Okay. That was more than one word. Especially since Christianity preaches "Return evil for evil to no one" and, turn the other cheek. The terrorists show no interest in any sort of peaceable resolution. I didn't see them grant any mercy or quarter to all those guys who got their heads chopped off.

It doesn't look like anybody is paying any attention to Muhammed. Cause muslim women and children are getting killed, by muslims, everyday. To actually say that an American presence in SA was "the straw that broke the camel's back" is also ridiculous. You may as well say that Islamists are an antiquated, backwards people that aren't intelligent enough to comprehend the modern world. Because that's the way the modern world works. The US maintains military bases on every continent on the face of the earth. South Americans aren't blowing children up because of it.

 

[Kayz]

I'm going to make a statement that many of you may find ridiculous, but I do believe this. I think that the major problem is that Islam as a whole has a massive inferiority complex. Muslim countries (not all cities, but a vast majority) are technologically inferior, socially inferior, and financially inferior (even with all that oil) to most nations on the planet.

In the past 300 years, the US has grown from an infantile state to the greatest super power the world has ever known. In the past 5000 years, Muslim countries have struggled to master the art of indoor plumbing and electricity.

Muslim countries think that Allah will ensure their survival, but time has passed them by....they are becoming fourth world countries while the rest of the world moves on a more productive path.....and they can't fathom the thought of being inferior to the infidels.

 

[CyniQ]

but time has passed them by....they are becoming fourth world countries while the rest of the world moves on a more productive path.....and they can't fathom the thought of being inferior to the infidels.

That's actually an interesting thought. I'll have to chew on that for a while. Our posts are going to piss swing off somethin fierce, I'm afraid.

 

[Kayz]

That's actually an interesting thought. I'll have to chew on that for a while. Our posts are going to piss swing off somethin fierce, I'm afraid.

LOL...I hope not because I certainly respect his opinion, I just disagree. That is what I like about this board...there are many intelligent people here who have vastly different opinions, but we all manage to get along. Except for that Grizz fucker....I can't stand his hairy ass.

 

[CyniQ]

LOL...I hope not because I certainly respect his opinion, I just disagree. That is what I like about this board...there are many intelligent people here who have vastly different opinions, but we all manage to get along. Except for that Grizz fucker....I can't stand his hairy ass.

We refrain from brutal attacks anyway. LOL. Usually

I also like that I can come on here, debate an issue, enjoy and enlighten myself without worrying about making lifelong enema's... er... enemies.

 

[swing]

Kayz, your understanding is incorrect concerning the prohibition of killing non-combatants. Abdullah reported, "A woman was found among the killed in one of the battles of the Prophet, so the Messenger of Allah (Muhammad) forbade the killing of women and children." Further in another narration Muhammad said, "Do not kill a woman, nor a labourer." "Do not kill an old man, nor a child, nor a woman." Concerning the killing of Muslims aiding the US: anyone who aids the enemies of the Muslims is considered to have committed "radd" apostacy. And therefore, have taken themselves out of the fold of Islam. Just as someone who aids the enemies of the US is considered an enemy-combatant. Also, if one compares the news coverage concerning the casualities in Iraq it becomes apparent there is a gross disparity between how much attention is devoted to the subject between the international media (i.e. BBC, Arab news, Canadian news, European news) and the US media outlets. The US media doesn't come close to covering the casualities and the day-to-day life of the average Iraqi. If one were to believe the impression given by the American media, someone may be ignorant enough to think that most casualites are caused by the insurgents, which isn't even close.
What more do Muslims need to do? I'm not sure what rock you've been living under, but there has been an enormous campaign by Muslims condemning terrorism. Man, it amazes me that people are so out of touch with reality. But, where was the outrage over the 24,000 Iraqi civilians killed, and more than 46,000 maimed, mostly at the hands of the US troops?
Finally, concerning the advancement of the Muslim world. It would be interesting to note that Algebra, Geometry, much of what we know about has come from the Muslim world. The Oxford History of Islam states, "Science was an extensive cultural undertaking that occupied the minds and energies of many of the leading intellectuals in medieval Muslim societies. Indeed, science was practiced on a scale unprecedented in earlier or contemporary human history." Research your history, and provide evidence before you make ignorant statements.

 

[Bob Smith]

I think the Jihadist/terrorist Muslims are very much like the KKK. The KKK claims to be a traditional Christian organization. Apparently they missed the whole idea of love and acceptance of others. IMO, the terrorists and KKK are very similar in that they completely bastardize their religion in order to serve their own purposes.

As for the media, I think the American AND foreign media is biased. It is painfully apparent that the BBC pretty much hates America and will paint an evil picture of anything we do, whether the reporting is accurate or not. The left-wing American media is much the same way, but even they arent as far left as the British and European media.

 

[swing]

CyniQ, your turn.

In order to properly understand the motives of these people, we must first analyze their statements. In 1996 Osama bin Laden stated, "The people of Islam have suffered from aggression, iniquity and injustice imposed on them by the Zionist-Crusader alliance and their collaborators...The latest and the greatest of these aggressions, incurred by the Muslims since the death of the Prophet...is the occupation of the land of the two Holy Places (i.e. Mecca and Medina, the two holiest cities in Islam)-the foundation of the house of Islam...Clearly after belief there is no more important duty than pushing the American enemy of the the holy land (Arabia). What is interesting is Bin Laden's choice of words. He doesn't say "Christians," rather he says
"Crusaders." Also he refers to the "Zionists" not the Jews. Which clearly shows that his grievance is not with any particular religious ideology, rather it is with the actions carried out by the belief. So if you are a Christian or Jew not carrying out any form of aggression towards the Muslim, then you're okay. However, if you've demonstrated hostility towards the Muslims then you have a problem. Furthermore, in 1998 Bin Laden states, "The Arabian Peninsula has never...been stormed by any forces like the crusader armies spreading in it like locusts, eating its riches and wiping out its plantations...For seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples.
I could go on and quote other organizations, but I doubt you are used to having evidence to support a premise, therefore, I fear boring you with details.
Secondly, I my statement was regarding any other religion with detailed regulations granting combatants and non-combatants rights, not mercy. Where in the Bible does it state that it is forbidden to kill women, children, or the elderly? As I stated, to the best of my knowledge this is unique to Islam. Provide your evidence if you believe otherwise.
Regarding the US building military bases globally. There is a major difference between simply having military bases, and exacting control over a government. If you look at the military presence in the Middle East:

1967 - 1985 62,500 US soldiers
1990 - 2002 651,000

This is irony that these governments also demonstrated a greater amount of oppression and suppression than was typical? Of course not. There is a distinct correlation between the level of oppression exacted towards the citizens of these countries, and the presence of the US military.
"In 1989 ther were 693, and in 1990 it climbed to 31,636. It is no coincidence this very same year is when the US began receiving attacks. Also, of the 315 separate suicide attacks (globally) between 1980 and 2003, 301, or 95 percent, were parts of organized, coherent campaigns, while only 14 percent were isolated or random events. I will mention a few incidents among the nine separate disputes have led to suicide attack campaigns: the presence of American and French forces in Lebanon; Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza; the Russian occupation of Chechnya, and the presence of American forces in Iraq and in the Arabian Peninsula. The data of all 315 suicide attacks between 1980 and 2003 shows there is not the close connection between terrorism and Islamic Fundamentalism that many people believe. Rather, what all suicide terrorist campaigns have in common is a specific secular and strategic goal: to compel democracies to withdraw military forces from the terrorists' national homeland." "Dying To Win-The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism." Robert A. Pape (A University of Chicago Political Scientist)
Forgive me for my laborious research, but I believe one should speak from evidence rather than their ass. I wish more people shared this view.

 

[Kayz]

Kayz, your understanding is incorrect concerning the prohibition of killing non-combatants. Abdullah reported, "A woman was found among the killed in one of the battles of the Prophet, so the Messenger of Allah (Muhammad) forbade the killing of women and children." Further in another narration Muhammad said, "Do not kill a woman, nor a labourer." "Do not kill an old man, nor a child, nor a woman." Concerning the killing of Muslims aiding the US: anyone who aids the enemies of the Muslims is considered to have committed "radd" apostacy. And therefore, have taken themselves out of the fold of Islam. Just as someone who aids the enemies of the US is considered an enemy-combatant. Also, if one compares the news coverage concerning the casualities in Iraq it becomes apparent there is a gross disparity between how much attention is devoted to the subject between the international media (i.e. BBC, Arab news, Canadian news, European news) and the US media outlets. The US media doesn't come close to covering the casualities and the day-to-day life of the average Iraqi. If one were to believe the impression given by the American media, someone may be ignorant enough to think that most casualites are caused by the insurgents, which isn't even close.
What more do Muslims need to do? I'm not sure what rock you've been living under, but there has been an enormous campaign by Muslims condemning terrorism. Man, it amazes me that people are so out of touch with reality. But, where was the outrage over the 24,000 Iraqi civilians killed, and more than 46,000 maimed, mostly at the hands of the US troops?
Finally, concerning the advancement of the Muslim world. It would be interesting to note that Algebra, Geometry, much of what we know about has come from the Muslim world. The Oxford History of Islam states, "Science was an extensive cultural undertaking that occupied the minds and energies of many of the leading intellectuals in medieval Muslim societies. Indeed, science was practiced on a scale unprecedented in earlier or contemporary human history." Research your history, and provide evidence before you make ignorant statements.

I know that Islam states you should not kill innocent people, women, and children. I was talking about the "Islam" that many people who think of when they hear the word "Islam." Many people have come to believe that Islam does in fact promote death and violence because all the terrorist attacks and slayings and bombings have been done IN THE NAME OF ALLAH AND ISLAM!!! That was my point, maybe I didn't phrase it correctly or clearly.

And as far as a mass condemnation coming from the Arab world, I wholeheartedly disagree. I hear a Muslim cleric calling for the violence to end, adn then I hear another asking Muslims to stand up against the infindels. There has yet to be a solid voice emerge from the Arab world. Syria and Iran willingly and openly support the insurgency by supplying weapons and supplies and allowing their borders to remain porous. And I'm not talking about a couple of village people supporting the insurgents adn terrorists....I'm talking about entire nations and governments from the top down. It is hard for me to believe that the majority of the Arab community is against the insurgency when the dictatorial regimes of other Arab nations fully support it.

And maybe it's just that there is no freedom of the press over there and all we see is the images that depict an anti-US sentiment.That may very well be true.

To be honest with you buddy, all I have heard from the US media outlets is how many innocent people we have killed. The mass media in the US fuels the idea that it is cool to be liberal and dissent on every issue deemed to be led by a conservative. But that does not change the fact that many of the terrorist attacks are now aimed at civilian installations, which do result in many innocent deaths.

And what ignorant statements did I make?? I stated that most of the Arab nations are technologically and financially inferior.....is that not a fact?? They are. I don't care that algebra and geometry were founded and developed in this region because these countries are still ruled by extremely oppressive regimes who will not allow the citizens of these countries (and I'm sure most of them are good people whom want a better life for their families) to secure a more prosperous future.

 

[swing]

Kayz, if I offended you then I sincerely apologize and request for your forgiveness...that was not my intention. Yes, the Arab countries are technologically inferior. However, they are morally and ethically superior. Their murder rate, rape, drug usage, robbery, and out of wedlock pregnancies are miniscule compared to ours. And contrary, to popular belief it has very little to do with the hudud (Islamic punishment), rather because it just isn't right. The majority of the Muslims condemn the attacking of civilians, but support the resistance to occupation. I realize to some that this may sound as a contradiction, but view it this way. If the US were attacked by the international community during the 1950 due to their refusal to protect minorities from lynchings, and oppression. Most Americans would fight against the occupation eventhough the international community stated their reasons were noble. Now let us say that Americans began killing any non-US citizen simply because they aren't American. Would this be condoned? I certainly hope not. The US has invaded several Middle Eastern countries and have imposed dictators among the people, its simply a matter that the Iraqi people cannot trust the US...afterall, they assisted Saddam when he ascended to the throne. You may not be aware, but many of the crackdowns on humanrights have been at the behest of the American government. I spent quite a bit of time in the Middle East, and had to accept the reality that my country is the instigator in the war. I don't belong to any political affiliation, I only search for the truth.

 

[Weatherlite]

If you look at the history of terrorism, one would notice the US was not specifically a target until the early 1990s.

Really? What about the kidnapping of Americans in Iran in 1979? How about the bombing of the Marine barracks in Beiruit in 1983? The bombing of the US embassy in Beiruit also in 1983? Bombing of US embassy in Kuwait...also in 1983? Assassination of a US Naval officer in Greece in 1983? Assassination of a US Political Office in Beiruit in 1984? Bombing of US Embassy in Beiruit AGAIN in 1984?

In December of 84 a Kuwaiti airlines jet was hijacked. When demands were not met they killed two AMERICANS, not Kuwaitis.

June 1985. Same deal....hijacked TWA flight 847. When demands not met they kill an AMERICAN.

Hijacking of the Achille Lauro October 85-January 86. When demands are not met who do they kill? A disabled AMERICAN in a wheelchair!

April 86-bombing of a German nightclub which is frequented predominantly by US servicemen.

December 87-a bar in Spain known to be a US servicemember hangout is bombed.

February 88-A Marine is kidnapped and killed by Hezbollah

April 88-Cab bomb explodes at a USO club in Naples, Italy.

April 89-Army Colonel is Assassinated in the Phillipines

Granted, during this same time there were a number of attacks on non-US facilities. There were 15 attacks on US assets or people in 10 years that can be said were DIRECTLY against the US. There were only 36 other terrorist acts during this same time! OH!!!! And out of those 36 other acts which weren't directly against the US, seven attacks killed US citizens. Quite a few of those attacks were against our allies. Sounds like we've been targeted since 1979 if you ask me!

Oh, BTW, don't bother arguing this point. I'm an Anti-Terrorism/Force Protection rep for the Air Force. That's my secondary job. My primary job is as an Explosive Ordnance Disposal Technician (bomb squad) and to defeat one's enemy you must know thine enemy. I know my shit.

 

[Weatherlite]

The US media doesn't come close to covering the casualities and the day-to-day life of the average Iraqi.

How do you know this for sure? Have you been over there during this war? I know a LOT of people who have been (some more than a year and a half) and they disagree with that statement completely.

If one were to believe the impression given by the American media, someone may be ignorant enough to think that most casualites are caused by the insurgents, which isn't even close.

I'll grant you that because of the simple fact that a bomb has a rather large killing radius. However, let's ask ourselves "Which group (the US and the insurgents) desires to kill non-combatants, ie women, children, elderly, innocent civilians, etc etc? If your answer is anything other than the insurgents then I pity you.

I'm not sure what rock you've been living under, but there has been an enormous campaign by Muslims condemning terrorism.

I sure as hell haven't seen it. I don't trust US media any farther than I can throw a car. I get my news off of every source possible and I haven't seen diddly shit about this. However, I will say that the small amount of outrage I have seen does come from the Muslims living in the Middle East. I feel it's truly pathetic how much US Muslims support the terrorists.

On a side note, and to help you understand me, I have spent nearly a year in various countries in the Middle East. I LOVE the culture, the environment, the food, the people....almost everything about it! If the US were more like them morally and ethically we would truly be a superpower in all aspects. I had a man who makes $30 a MONTH offer me lunch! I have seen a transformation among those who were pro-Taliban once they realized that we were trying to help. It's really cool to see that change happen in a man carrying an AK-47 when he realizes that you are not there to kill or oppress them but to destroy the bombs surrounding his village because you are worried for his safety and the saftey of the rest of his village.

I have received respect from total strangers simply because I am a human being. I have had great philosophical conversations with Muslims concerning religion and they never once considered me inferior or less than worthy because I was not a Muslim. They actually considered me equal to them because I was curious about their religion and the differences.

Overall they are a decent people. I just think that their whole system is backward. Until they can get out of the monarchy/fuedal system they live in they will never achieve true progress. They will always believe what they are being told by the clerics and the governments (that or they will follow the party line simply for fear of being ridiculed or killed.)

 

[Weatherlite]

However, they are morally and ethically superior. Their murder rate, rape, drug usage, robbery, and out of wedlock pregnancies are miniscule compared to ours. And contrary, to popular belief it has very little to do with the hudud (Islamic punishment), rather because it just isn't right.

I agree, they are morally and ethically superior....in general and in theory. Most are. However, I have found that the wealthy and those who are in power are also the biggest hippocrates around. I can't even begin to count the number of Saudis and Kuwaitis who routinely break Islamic law. In Kuwait there was a town between Ali Al Salem and Kuwait City that we were forbidden to go into because of terrorist activities. Some of my Kuwaiti military friends confided in me that there was no more threat there than anywhere else. The real reason is because that was Kuwait's version of Bahrain....in other words that's where all of the alcohol, drugs and prostitution was. And Bahrain....even though a country's government allows alcohol, drugs, hookers etc doesn't mean that it's OK by the religion, right? And yet it's all legal there. And who do you always see? Yep...rich Saudis! You get other Arabs there too but mainly the Sauds.

My point is simply that for those who claim to be so holy and religiously pure they sure do break a lot of Allah's laws.

Before you point out that we are worse I'll say it....We are worse. But I don't see as many of us (proportionate to the population) being that bad of a hippocrate. Also, many western religions (Catholocism mainly) allow you to screw up all you want as long as you ask for forgiveness and repent for your sins so in essence, you are allowed to do it!

 

[swing]

Really? What about the kidnapping of Americans in Iran in 1979? How about the bombing of the Marine barracks in Beiruit in 1983? The bombing of the US embassy in Beiruit also in 1983? Bombing of US embassy in Kuwait...also in 1983? Assassination of a US Naval officer in Greece in 1983? Assassination of a US Political Office in Beiruit in 1984? Bombing of US Embassy in Beiruit AGAIN in 1984?

In December of 84 a Kuwaiti airlines jet was hijacked. When demands were not met they killed two AMERICANS, not Kuwaitis.

June 1985. Same deal....hijacked TWA flight 847. When demands not met they kill an AMERICAN.

Hijacking of the Achille Lauro October 85-January 86. When demands are not met who do they kill? A disabled AMERICAN in a wheelchair!

April 86-bombing of a German nightclub which is frequented predominantly by US servicemen.

December 87-a bar in Spain known to be a US servicemember hangout is bombed.

February 88-A Marine is kidnapped and killed by Hezbollah

April 88-Cab bomb explodes at a USO club in Naples, Italy.

April 89-Army Colonel is Assassinated in the Phillipines

Granted, during this same time there were a number of attacks on non-US facilities. There were 15 attacks on US assets or people in 10 years that can be said were DIRECTLY against the US. There were only 36 other terrorist acts during this same time! OH!!!! And out of those 36 other acts which weren't directly against the US, seven attacks killed US citizens. Quite a few of those attacks were against our allies. Sounds like we've been targeted since 1979 if you ask me!

Oh, BTW, don't bother arguing this point. I'm an Anti-Terrorism/Force Protection rep for the Air Force. That's my secondary job. My primary job is as an Explosive Ordnance Disposal Technician (bomb squad) and to defeat one's enemy you must know thine enemy. I know my shit.

Good for you regarding your credentials...that still doesn't mean much. The attacks you refer to concerning Lebanon were aimed at causing the US, France, and Israel to withdraw their occupation. As evidence, I quote President Ronald Reagan's memoir explaining the US decision to withdraw, "The price we had to pay in Beirut was so great, the tradedy at the barracks was so enormous...We had to pull out...We couldn't stay there and run the risk of another suicide attack on the Marines." These attacks in Lebanon (particularly Southern Lebanon) were also cause for the Israel Defense Forces (IDF), and the French to withdraw their troops as well. It may be interesting to note that 71% of all Lebanese suicide attackers were Christians, 21% were Communist/Socialists, and only 8% were Muslims. There were a total of 36 attacks, involving 41 attackers between 1982-1986 in Lebanon.

Iran is a very interesting saga. As we all know, the US insisted upon the backing of Muhammad Reza as the Shah, even against the will of the Irani people. In fact, when Iran held their first democratic elections during the early 1970's it was the US that sent the CIA into Iran, caused a coupe, and reinstalled the Shah. Although he was finally deposed during the Islamic Revolution in 1979, the US continued to hold on to their influence in the country. This brought about the Islamic Revolution which was also targeted at the US in their country. Again, some form of US occupation/interference was the cause.

The incidents you mentioned were already included in my previous responses. It isn't anything new or shocking. But the reason is the same, the withdrawal of US/Israeli occupation from the Arab lands.

 

[swing]

How do you know this for sure? Have you been over there during this war? I know a LOT of people who have been (some more than a year and a half) and they disagree with that statement completely.


I'll grant you that because of the simple fact that a bomb has a rather large killing radius. However, let's ask ourselves "Which group (the US and the insurgents) desires to kill non-combatants, ie women, children, elderly, innocent civilians, etc etc? If your answer is anything other than the insurgents then I pity you.


I sure as hell haven't seen it. I don't trust US media any farther than I can throw a car. I get my news off of every source possible and I haven't seen diddly shit about this. However, I will say that the small amount of outrage I have seen does come from the Muslims living in the Middle East. I feel it's truly pathetic how much US Muslims support the terrorists.

On a side note, and to help you understand me, I have spent nearly a year in various countries in the Middle East. I LOVE the culture, the environment, the food, the people....almost everything about it! If the US were more like them morally and ethically we would truly be a superpower in all aspects. I had a man who makes $30 a MONTH offer me lunch! I have seen a transformation among those who were pro-Taliban once they realized that we were trying to help. It's really cool to see that change happen in a man carrying an AK-47 when he realizes that you are not there to kill or oppress them but to destroy the bombs surrounding his village because you are worried for his safety and the saftey of the rest of his village.

I have received respect from total strangers simply because I am a human being. I have had great philosophical conversations with Muslims concerning religion and they never once considered me inferior or less than worthy because I was not a Muslim. They actually considered me equal to them because I was curious about their religion and the differences.

Overall they are a decent people. I just think that their whole system is backward. Until they can get out of the monarchy/fuedal system they live in they will never achieve true progress. They will always believe what they are being told by the clerics and the governments (that or they will follow the party line simply for fear of being ridiculed or killed.)

I spent May 10-July 15 in Iraq, Syria, Jordan. Of course, I wasn't surprised to learn Al-Jazeera was banned in Iraq at the behest of the U.S. I have travelled EXTENSIVELY throughout the Middle East. Both during my military service, and afterwards while working on my Ph.D in Middle Eastern Studies. I speak arabic quite well, and am exceptionally familiar with the culture. This does not include my tour from 1994-1995. My return after my enlistment concluded in 1996, 1997, 1999-2000, 2002, 2004, and most recently a couple of months ago.

I spent two-and-a-half weeks in Iraq, and had the opportunity to speak with 5 individuals who stated they belonged to one of the many insurgency groups. From what I was informed, the targets are specifically geared at US troops, Iraqi troops, and Iraqi recruits. And I quote (excuse the rough translation), "By no means do we attack the innocent. Unfortunately, the bombs may explode prematurely. It does not benefit us to kill civilians, and lose our support base. Afterall, we are fighting for them." If the US can "accidently" drop a 1000lb bomb on a house repeatedly, why isn't it plausible for the insurgency to make errors as well?

I agree, you will hardly find a more decent people than Arabs. My very first visit in the UAE, a group of men stopped me as I was walking past a cafe, and begged my to drink shai with milk. I never experienced anything like that before.