Separate Realities of Bush and Kerry Supporters

Millard

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A very interesting and insightful survey released by the University of Maryland. It reveals differences between Bush supporters and Kerry supporters in their responses to questions that are objectively true or untrue.

Please feel free to review the results and make your interpretations.

(Survey results are attached as a PDF file.)
 

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Even if they don't like to say it out loud, lots of Dems think that George Bush's supporters are a horde of ignoramuses. Now comes evidence that they're right!
(at least according to this biased survey)
Analyzing data from a series of nationwide polls, the report finds that a majority of Bush supporters believe things about the world that are objectively untrue, while the majority of Kerry supporters dwell in the reality-based community.
While Im hearted to see the secular left embracing objective truth, that isn't exactly what the report shows. If the report can be said to be indicative of anything it's that the different realities that separate the two groups are differences in language: Kerry supporters prefer adjectives while Bush voters favor nouns. How else can we explain that the differences in realities all hinge on the placement of modifiers?

One easy way to spot a biased survey is to examine its use of qualifying words. The ones used in the PIPA report are so embarrassingly obvious that it could be used as a textbook case of how to ask questions to get the results you want. Take, for instance, the opening paragraph of their summary:

Even after the final report of Charles Duelfer to Congress saying that Iraq did not have a significant WMD program, 72% of Bush supporters continue to believe that Iraq had actual WMD (47%) or a major program for developing them (25%). Fifty-six percent assume that most experts believe Iraq had actual WMD and 57% also assume, incorrectly, that Duelfer concluded Iraq had at least a major WMD program. Kerry supporters hold opposite beliefs on all these points.

Similarly, 75% of Bush supporters continue to believe that Iraq was providing substantial support to al Qaeda, and 63% believe that clear evidence of this support has been found. Sixty percent of Bush supporters assume that this is also the conclusion of most experts, and 55% assume, incorrectly, that this was the conclusion of the 9/11 Commission. Here again, large majorities of Kerry supporters have exactly opposite perceptions.


Now lets look at the same passage without the adjectives:

Even after the final report of Charles Duelfer to Congress saying that Iraq did not have a WMD program [Not true. The report said that there was a WMD program.], 72% of Bush supporters continue to believe that Iraq had actual WMD (47%) [True, over 50 were found] or a program for developing them (25%) [also true]. Fifty-six percent assume that most experts believe Iraq had actual WMD [true] and 57% also assumethat Duelfer concluded Iraq had at least a WMD program [true]. Kerry supporters hold opposite beliefs on all these points.

Similarly, 75% of Bush supporters continue to believe that Iraq was providing support to al Qaeda [true], and 63% believe that evidence of this support has been found [true]. Sixty percent of Bush supporters assume that this is also the conclusion of most experts, and 55% assumethat this was the conclusion of the 9/11 Commission [True and True]. Here again, large majorities of Kerry supporters have exactly opposite perceptions.

Notice how the reality changes when the passage is stripped of its subjective modifiers? It becomes even more obvious when we examine the questions that were asked:

Is it your perception that that experts mostly agree that just before the war Iraq:
Had WMD Bush supporters 56%; Kerry supporters 18%


This question is simply too confusing to be useful. Is it asking whether before the war the experts believed Iraq had WMDs or is it asking whether that is what the experts are saying now. It becomes especially confusing when combined with the next question.

As you may know, Charles Duelfer, the chief weapons inspector selected by the Bush administration to investigate whether Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, has just presented his final report to Congress. Is it your impression he concluded that, just before the war, Iraq had:

WMD Bush 19%; Kerry 7%

Major program Bush 38%; Kerry 16%


Notice the difference between this question and the previous one? Fewer than 20% of the respondents think that the Duelfer report claims that Iraq did not have WMDs before the war (these numbers are, of course, surprisingly low considering that the Duelfer report said that WMDs were found just a few months ago). Why is there a 37% difference between the two answers since they are basically asking the same thing? And why does the summary passage not use this number since they say Even after the final report of Charles Duelfer?

The second part of the question, asking about the major program, is a matter of interpretation. If the question were simply whether Saddam had a WMD program the answer would obviously have to be answered in the affirmative. But by adding the qualifier major it becomes purely subjective. Where is the line drawn between a "minor" WMD program and a "major" one? Is being able to produce large amounts of mustard gas within three months a major program? I was under the impression that Saddam was not suppossed to have a WMD program at all.

Is it your impression that Iraq was
Directly involved in 9/11 Bush 20%; Kerry 8%

Gave al-Qaeda substantial support Bush 55%; Kerry 22%


We shouldnt be surprised that the summary doesnt mention that 80% of Bush supporters dont think that Iraq was directly involved in 9/11. Instead the summary chooses to focus on the percentage that believes that Iraq gave substantial support to al-Qaeda. In the report of findings PIPA claims that Despite the report of the 9/11 Commission saying that there is no evidence Iraq was providing significant support to al Qaeda[emphasis added]. Notice how once again they have to add a modifier. The reason becomes obvious when we look at the actual Commissions report:

In 2001, with Bin Ladins help [Islamist extremists in the Kurdistan area of Iraq] re-formed into an organization called Ansar al Islam. There are indications that by then the Iraqi regime tolerated and may even have helped Ansar al Islam against the common Kurdish enemy. (Pg. 79)

In mid-1998, the situation reversed; it was Iraq that reportedly took the initiative [to offer cooperation to Bin Laden]. In March 1998, after Bin Ladins public fatwa against the United States, two al Qaeda members reportedly went to Iraq to meet with Iraqi intelligence. In July, an Iraqi delegations traveled to Afghanistan to meet first with the Taliban and then with Bin Ladin. Sources reported that one, or perhaps both, of these meetings was apparently arranged through Bin Ladins Egyptian deputy, Zawahiri, who had ties of his own to the Iraqis. In 1998, Iraq was under intensifying U.S. pressure, which culminated in a series of large air attacks in December.


Similar meetings between Iraqi officials and Bin Ladin or his aides may have occurred in 1999 during a period of some reported strains with the Taliban. According to the reporting, Iraqi officials offered Bin Ladin a safe haven in Iraq. Bin Ladin declined, apparently judging that his circumstances in Afghanistan remained more favorable than the Iraqi alternative. The reports describe friendly contacts and indicated some common themes in both sides hatred of the United States. But to date we have no evidence that these or the earlier contacts developed into a collaborative operational relationship. Nor have we seen evidence indicating that Iraq cooperated with Al Qaeda in developing or carrying out any attacks against the United States. (pg. 89)


Apparantly Kerry supporters dont believe that helping al Qaeda operatives attack the Kurds or offering a safe haven for Bin Laden is significant.

Is it your impression that the Bush administration is currently saying that just before the war, Iraq

Had WMD Bush 63%; Kerry 73%


Had a major WMD program Bush 19%; Kerry 24%





Is it your impression that, just before the war, that the Bush administration had said that Iraq:

Directly involved in 9/11 Bush 19%; Kerry 25%

Gave substantial support -- Bush 56%; Kerry 49%


Again we find two questions that are so confusing that the results become uninformative.

Thinking about how all the people in the world feel about the US having gone to war with Iraq, do you think
Majority favors Bush 26%; Kerry 5%

Are evenly divided Bush 42%; Kerry 20%

Majority opposes -- Bush 31%; Kerry 74%


The summary claims that Despite an abundance of evidence--including polls conducted by Gallup International in 38 countries,

The problem with this passage is that the conclusion of the PPIA doesnt match the data. For example, they claim that a Gallup International poll says that a majority of people in the world opposed the US having gone to war in Iraq. But the actual poll only shows that approximately half opposed the war under any circumstances. That is neither a majority nor a fair extrapolation of the data. Besides, there are 191 countries in the UN. How is a poll of 38 countries representative of the world?

Thinking about how people around the world feel about the US presidential election, do you think:

Majority prefers Bush 57% Bush supporters; 9% Kerry supporters

Majority prefers Kerry 9% Bush supporters; 69% Kerry supporters


This is the hands down the stupidest question in the survey. Who cares which candidate the world prefers? Why should we pay attention to other countries when they elect people like Yasser Arafat and Jacques Chirac?

The one area that the survey appears to have accurately reported is the Bush supporters misperception that the President supports the atrocious global treaties that the rest of the world thinks we should be signing on to. The Kerry supporters, on the other hand, were able to correctly identify their candidates position on almost every issue. To be fair, though, they had an advantage over the Bush supporters. All they had to do in order to guess where Kerry stands is to ask What would France do?
 
jbiggs said:
Even if they don't like to say it out loud, lots of Dems think that George Bush's supporters are a horde of ignoramuses. Now comes evidence that they're right!
jbiggs,

First of all, you claim that you posted the "PIPA report" interpretations. You are objectively wrong. The report you posted does not appear anywhere on the PIPA website. IF it does, please send me the URL and I will retract my statement.

Everyone who reads this can verify that what jbiggs posted not the official PIPA report.

http://www.pipa.org/

Let's look at what you did to dismiss the entire report:

First, you took some unknown third-party's interpretation of the party. Then, you tried to pass it off as the official findings of PIPA. Then you try to discredit the official findings by criticizing the unknown third-party's interpretation. That is weak, and disingenious attempt to spin with misinformation.

jbiggs said:
One easy way to spot a biased survey is to examine its use of qualifying words. The ones used in the PIPA report are so embarrassingly obvious that it could be used as a textbook case of how to ask questions to get the results you want.
Furthermore, while I think you can find bias in this survey, your hack methodological analysis is painfully weak.

Qualifying words and adjectives are pretty much commonplace in practically all surveys. This is not the best way to spot bias or an easy way to show that there is bias in a survey. Who has not taken a survey without qualifiers such as "agree strongly", "agree somewhat", "neither agree nor disagree", "disagree somewhat", "disagree strongly".

Try again.

Oh, and here again is the official interpretation of the PIPA report:

http://www.pipa.org/
 
jbiggs said:
Thinking about how people around the world feel about the US presidential election, do you think:

Majority prefers Bush 57% Bush supporters; 9% Kerry supporters

Majority prefers Kerry 9% Bush supporters; 69% Kerry supporters

This is the hands down the stupidest question in the survey. Who cares which candidate the world prefers? Why should we pay attention to other countries when they elect people like Yasser Arafat and Jacques Chirac?
I agree. But for some reason I thought you cared? I wonder why I was under this impression? Oh, yeah, maybe it's because of this post you made only yesterday:

https://thinksteroids.com/community/posts/377042

In your post you quoted an article extensively outlining "which candidate the world prefers":

jbiggs said:
Just Thursday, Palestinian Authority leader and sometime terrorist Yasser Arafat endorsed Kerry. Why? Kerry did once call him a statesman. And, as his foreign minister noted, under Kerry several staff members during Clintons administration would return.

Kerry has also won praise from Kim Jong Il, North Koreas totalitarian dictator, who has murdered millions of his own people. Kim calls Bush human scum. But he likes Kerrys support of two-way talks between North Korea and the U.S. which would give the beloved leader a big negotiating advantage.

Then theres Fidel Castro another communist tyrant smitten with the Massachusetts senator. While Kerry delivered his acceptance speech at the Democratic convention, Castro celebrated by running a bootlegged copy of Fahrenheit 9/11 over Cuban TV.

Dont forget former Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad. Last year, Mahathir, who is often called moderate, said Jews rule this world by proxy. This year, he urged U.S. Muslims to vote for Kerry in the name of Islam.

We all know, of course, whom President Jacques Chirac of France and Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder of Germany prefer. Polls show Bush is overwhelmingly unpopular in those countries. And neither man has made a secret of his contempt for the president.
Interestingly by reading the link you provided, it becomes apparent that you only selectively quoting the article, omitting world leaders who endorsed Bush:

jbiggs said:
Of course, we'll forgive you. After all, you were trying to make a point.
 
administrator said:
I agree. But for some reason I thought you cared? I wonder why I was under this impression? Oh, yeah, maybe it's because of this post you made only yesterday:

https://thinksteroids.com/community/posts/377042

In your post you quoted an article extensively outlining "which candidate the world prefers":

Interestingly by reading the link you provided, it becomes apparent that you only selectively quoting the article, omitting world leaders who endorsed Bush:


Of course, we'll forgive you. After all, you were trying to make a point.

This was made to counter your post which did the exact same thing. Only stating what would support your argument. Don't be a hypocrite; you did the exact same thing.
 
administrator said:
jbiggs,

First of all, you claim that you posted the "PIPA report" interpretations. You are objectively wrong. The report you posted does not appear anywhere on the PIPA website. IF it does, please send me the URL and I will retract my statement.

Here is the url that I read...

http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Pres_Election_04/html/new_10_21_04.html#1

I await your retraction.

I don't blindly just click on url's without checking into them.

No spin involved...you can read the findings that state what I quoted for yourself.

As anyone who studies human nature knows, the way you ask a question can completely shape the survey results. They teach entire majors on this practice in marketing.
 
jbiggs said:
This was made to counter your post which did the exact same thing. Only stating what would support your argument. Don't be a hypocrite; you did the exact same thing.
Not true again. You should give up because everyone can simply refer back to the post and see exactly what was said.

And exactly what argument was I supporting?

And did I do exactly the same thing?

See my posts in the thread:

administrator said:
al-Quaida endorsing Kerry?

Iranian Security Council endorsing Bush?

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=sto..._us_elections_2

Can't wait to see who the majority of the 'axis of evil' endorse? Still waiting on Kim Jong of North Korea?
And Kayz kindly responded with an article that showed Jong-il had expressed support for Kerry. I thanked him. Then I followed up with the next post strongly stating that I hoped no one took these so-called endorsements so seriously as to effect their vote and that all the spin given to such "endorsements" was "stupid":

administrator said:
My remarks were quite tongue-in-cheek. Although probably not apparent in this medium or to those who don't know how cynical I am. I think the "spin" applied to who evil dictators will endorse for President is stupid. :rolleyes:

Really, now I hope no one takes any other countries "endorsements" seriously and allow it to influence their voting decisions.

Does it matter that Kerry says lotsa of "world leaders" want him to win?

Does it matter that Iran would prefer Bush over Kerry?

Does it matter that North Korea would prefer Kerry over Bush?

Aren't we voting for what's in the best interest of the United States of America and not?
At this point Kayz and I reached an agreement on this point.

Then, you following up with the post where you went on and on and which foreign leaders supported Kerry, blah, blah, blah.

Essentially, I think both you and I agree that "which candidate the world prefers" is stupid since the U.S. electorate is voting for a candidate that represents the US interests.

I just like giving you a hard time because you seemed so exasperated about how the PIPA survey would waste anyone's time to discuss such a "stupid" issue.

https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134229979
 
administrator said:
Essentially, I think both you and I agree that "which candidate the world prefers" is stupid since the U.S. electorate is voting for a candidate that represents the US interests.

I just like giving you a hard time because you seemed so exasperated about how the PIPA survey would waste anyone's time to discuss such a "stupid" issue.

https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134229979

I completely agree with the "which candidate the world prefers" is stupid since the U.S. electorate is voting for a candidate that represents the US interests.

I didn't catch your sarcasm in your post for that I apoligize.

As far as the survey...my point is that most surveys and statistics are useless as they can be so easily manipulated!

I still await your retraction if you are a man of your word!
 
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jbiggs said:
I await your retraction.

I don't blindly just click on url's without checking into them.

No spin involved...you can read the findings that state what I quoted for yourself.
I will await any such retraction until you tell me if this is your commentary or that of PIPA:

jbiggs said:
Even if they don't like to say it out loud, lots of Dems think that George Bush's supporters are a horde of ignoramuses. Now comes evidence that they're right!
(at least according to this biased survey)
Analyzing data from a series of nationwide polls, the report finds that a majority of Bush supporters believe things about the world that are objectively untrue, while the majority of Kerry supporters dwell in the reality-based community.
Because it sure looks to me like you cut and paste commentary from some unknown third-party source and spliced it together. Then, you identify it as the PIPA report.

Is that not true? If it's true, my previous comments about your disingenuity stand and I will not issue a retraction.

If I'm wrong and the statements you quote above as part of the PIPA report do indeed reside on the PIPA website, I will issue a retraction.

What you did is as bad as what Dan Rather and CBS news sources did - they took an official document and cut and paste outside material and spliced it together. Which of course changed the meaning of the original document.

Did you not do this?
 
administrator said:
I will await any such retraction until you tell me if this is your commentary or that of PIPA:

Because it sure looks to me like you cut and paste commentary from some unknown third-party source and spliced it together. Then, you identify it as the PIPA report.

Is that not true? If it's true, my previous comments about your disingenuity stand and I will not issue a retraction.

If I'm wrong and the statements you quote above as part of the PIPA report do indeed reside on the PIPA website, I will issue a retraction.

What you did is as bad as what Dan Rather and CBS news sources did - they took an official document and cut and paste outside material and spliced it together. Which of course changed the meaning of the original document.

Did you not do this?

I never ever said the entire post was from the PIPA website. The opening paragraph I read is included in my post.

It is parts of their findings with some commentary of my own and a friend who has a blog that I write for.

Please read my post carefully...

I was merely pointing out ways in which surveys can be flawed.

Here again is the website I used to get my PIPA findings...

http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/P...10_21_04.html#1

As you can clearly see, it is exactly what I quoted...
 
jbiggs said:
It is parts of their findings with some commentary of my own and a friend who has a blog that I write for.
Yes, this what I thought. There were at least three distinct authors in your post. I immediately identified passages from PIPA, I figured out your comments for the most part. Then there was so one who called Bush supporters a "horde of ignoramuses". Obviously, I knew this wasn't you but the reader was left to believe that it was PIPA's interpretation. This in effect made it seem that PIPA was unabashedly partisan.

I read the PIPA interpretation. And I knew the liberal slant in your post was not PIPA.

MY POINT:

The lack of clear attributions was very misleading and (to quote you from earlier in thread) "so confusing that the results become uninformative."
 
jbiggs said:
I never ever said the entire post was from the PIPA website. The opening paragraph I read is included in my post.

It is parts of their findings with some commentary of my own and a friend who has a blog that I write for.
administrator said:
Yes, this what I thought. There were at least three distinct authors in your post.
Oops. I was wrong. There are at least four people that contributed to your post. You forgot to mention Michelle Goldberg. You, your friend, PIPA and Michelle. How could you forget about Michelle?

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2004/10/21/bush_reality/
 
administrator said:
Oops. I was wrong. There are at least four people that contributed to your post. You forgot to mention Michelle Goldberg. You, your friend, PIPA and Michelle. How could you forget about Michelle?

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2004/10/21/bush_reality/


What don't you get about my post! I never said what I had posted was PIPA's findings. It was paragraph's from their news release from their website along with some of my own comments along with those forwarded to me by a friend who has a BLOG out of my area. Yes Ms Goldberg's column was posted on his site. I'm sure you know that everything posted isn't written by the poster of a blog.

And you still can't seem to figure out...I'm not disputing PIPA's findings. I'm merely stating that surveys are flawed. They can easily be slanted by the questioning. That's all. Yet you continue to spin what I posted.
 
jbiggs said:
What don't you get about my post! I never said what I had posted was PIPA's findings. It was paragraph's from their news release from their website along with some of my own comments along with those forwarded to me by a friend who has a BLOG out of my area. Yes Ms Goldberg's column was posted on his site. I'm sure you know that everything posted isn't written by the poster of a blog.
I get it. Yes, but what don't you get? The fact that you posted thoughts and comments from at least 4 distinct entities without any clear attributions? The fact that no credit given to the the at least 4 authors contributing to your post?

The fact that you never claimed the commentary in response to PIPA was only yours and yours alone does not IMO removed any responsibility on your part to make proper attributions?

jbiggs said:
Yet you continue to spin what I posted.
No spin. What you did speaks for itself. I'm just calling you out on it.
 
jbiggs said:
Yes Ms Goldberg's column was posted...
How could you forget to give credit to Michelle? That's worse than Kerry forgetting to mention Poland?

You forgot about Poland?! :D
 
It's obvious you have no intentions of discussing different view points and only attacking or trying to discredit people with oposing views. At least you do it without derogitory remarks.

What I posted was not completely my own and I have acknowledged that three times all ready. So what. It came from one BLOG which was commenting on PIPAS's findings.

I guess I didn't realize that this forum had rules about having to have "footnotes" and a bibliography.

Nice that you brought Kerry into this discussion. Wern't you just complaining that Kayz and I brought a canidate into a discussion that wasn't about a canidate. You show yourself to be very hypocritical once again.

I fully expect you to attack me again in a response; so have at it.

I am done with this thread.
 
jbiggs said:
It's obvious you have no intentions of discussing different view points and only attacking or trying to discredit people with oposing views.
Say again? "No intentions of discussing different view points"? You must be kidding.

You've made two unsubstantiated accusations against me. Of course, I will respond...

(1) You state I make personal attacks instead "discussing" different ideas. I will point you and anyone who is interested to my posts in the political forum as evidence that I am willing to extensively discuss different viewpoints. Also, I challenge you to find evidence therein of a "personal attack". I attack assertions that have weak, misleading or dishonest support behind them. I do not attack individuals who I know nothing about. I just don't blindly accept any assertion at face value; perhaps I hold you to a higher standard of discussion than most people hold you to. You are clearly very sensitive when discussing your strongly held opinions. As such, you (apparently) take any questioning of your opinions and assertions as a personal attack. I am sorry that you take it this way.

jbiggs said:
I guess I didn't realize that this forum had rules about having to have "footnotes" and a bibliography.
No there are no rules to this effect. I just think it helps one's credibility is you make a post with 4 different authors, you make it clear that you are doing this at the onset. It is at the very least very confusing, if not dishonest.

jbiggs said:
Nice that you brought Kerry into this discussion. Wern't you just complaining that Kayz and I brought a canidate into a discussion that wasn't about a canidate. You show yourself to be very hypocritical once again.
(2) You state that I am hypocritical. I hate to be so patronizing. But really, you need to learn the meaning of the concepts which you use. Hypocritical? Hardly.

My reference to Kerry in this discussion was used in what is called an analogy. An analogy involves making a comparison between unrelated items/issues to make a point about the present items/issues. In no way does this attempt to change the subject.

Furthermore, the sarcasm in that analogy was pretty thick.

It seems like a pretty desperate attempt to identify hypocrisy in this example.
 
Lets Make This Simple
9/11 attacks occur
Democrats and Republicans Agree to Go into Afganistan
DEMOCRATS and Republicans Agree Iraq is a threat and has WMD. So BOTH agree to invade.

Election Time
Republicans continue to support war started by both parties
Democrates have selective amnesia and forget they wanted the war too.

Whether the WMD were there or not is irrelivant right now as the past is behind us. What matters is BOTH parties agreed to it, but only one party admits to it.

Why I won't vote for Kerry/Democrates this election is simple. How can you vote for someone who has consistantly supported whatever is popular. Kerry, and most of the democratic party right now are flat out pathetic. If they win they will severly weaken the war on terror, and I expect an attack shortly there after. In fact they have already weakened the war, by dividing the country on the occupation of IRAQ. If the country were behind the troops completely we would be in and out of there with the job done much faster. And with one dictatorship down turned into a democratic nation we would have an ally in a region that needs a democratic example. It also serves as a warning to all the other dictators in the regon to watch what they do, or we will take them from power as well. The only way terrorism will ever stop is if the entire world is democratic and free or the threat of democracy puts fear into the dictators. If it must be forced upon them so be it. It is the greater good.
 
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